Darth Vader vs Tulak Hord

Vader smashes.

Love to hear what Vader has that compares to being far beyond SOR Nox.

LadyKulvax wrote:Love to hear what Vader has that compares to being far beyond SOR Nox.

80% of Sidious is what he has

He had the potential to become 80% of Sidious, nothing says he actually did. This was explained to you once before. Even if he did become 80% of Sidious. Care to quantify that? Care to explain how Hord can't be, say, 90%?

LadyKulvax wrote:He had the potential to become 80% of Sidious, nothing says he actually did. This was explained to you once before. Even if he did become 80% of Sidious. Care to quantify that? Care to explain how Hord can't be, say, 90%?

Ulic was stated to be ROTJ Vader level in that French quote and you hold Ulic above Hord
And cos ROTS Sidious was stated to be the most powerful sith in history and ROTJ Sidious grew far stronger than that so I doubt Hord is going to be anywhere that considering the power gaps of Sith below ROTS Sidious
The Dreamasters power pales in comparison to Vitiate who is below ROTS Palps and the Dreadmasters are Also below ROTS Palps but above Hord. And 80% of ROTJ Palpatine is gonna be closer to ROTS Sidious than Hord who is below that big power gap between a bunch of the characters above him

The French quote has been contested before and I'm not sure Ulic is > Hord or Ragnos, given the enormous gap between him and Kun in his prime.

@Vaelias am I expecting a response?

Seturna wrote:@Vaelias am I expecting a response?

Oh shit sorry lad hahhaa I’ll get back to u when I’m home hahaha

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:Well we have Sidious saying that DE Luke could be like him, implying that DE Luke is not yet on Vader’s Level

I would take OOU statements putting them rough equals to be more reliable than Sidious' words of manipulation

Beware The Sith wrote:Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.

Jedi Battles wrote:Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.

And yeh that quote from Lucas still counts I’m afraid.

Which one?

But even from scaling Suited Vader is still up there especially when considering the sith orders overall gradual increase in power up to Vader’s time it gives Vader thousands of years of gradual increase above Hord which does count for something

Substantiate please.

Those solidly put Ragnos above any other sith of that time including Tulak Hord

It seems you are correct here. Why would any of this however put Vader above Hord?

Also that last quote of yours is weird... we really have no way of translating what if actually means given in the thread(Kun RT) many people had different translations of what it actually means

would take OOU statements putting them rough equals to be more reliable than Sidious' words of manipulation

Ok fair enough

Which one?

The 80% of palps one

Substantiate please

Well the goal of the rule of two line was for the sith to grow with every generation, it’s confirmed that this worked, Bane made this because the sith had stagnated after the New sith Wars, implying that it was on a constant incline beforehand and then again with the banites, so its apparent that Vader living this far after Hord is more probably more powerful but he could be around the same level as Hord considering his lived in the Golden age,
Keep in mind we know Vader is always growing in power

An yeh that last quote is weird but I’ve checked it myself with a mate who speaks French an, an actual French person and we both got that result

So I gues Hord could be more powerful than Suited Vader seeing his accolades and feats, Vader just seems to probably be higher from a scaling point of view but tbh it can go either way with that
An I think feats and accolades are more reliable when ranking people so I think Hord could get this tbh I agree

So are we in agreement that Pre suit Vader smashes Hord but suited Vader it could go either way with a good fight but Hord likely wins

Vaelias wrote:The 80% of palps one

Which I explained above is completely unquantifiable and is refrenced with maybe

Well the goal of the rule of two line was for the sith to grow with every generation, it’s confirmed that this worked, Bane made this because the sith had stagnated after the New sith Wars, implying that it was on a constant incline beforehand and then again with the banites, so its apparent that Vader living this far after Hord is more probably more powerful but he could be around the same level as Hord considering his lived in the Golden age,

Two major problems here:

(1). Tulak isn't any banite sith and so wouldn't apply to the Banite growth

(2). Vader doesn't get banite scaling as he's never killed Sidious, or growing powerful enough to even do(e.g he doesn't get banite scaling)
If you can explain either of these problems here; I would be happy

Well we know Vader is always growing

Which is a bit vague on it's own isn't it?

An yeh that last quote is weird but I’ve checked it myself with a mate who speaks French an, an actual French person and we both got that result

As Azronger explained in another thread. I'd like a lot of french to go on and confirm the same thing.

So I gues Hord could be more powerful than Suited Vader seeing his accolades and feats, Vader just seems to probably be higher from a scaling point of view but tbh it can go either way with that
An I think feats and accolades are more reliable when ranking people so I think Hord could get this tbh I agree

So are we in agreement that Pre suit Vader smashes Hord

Yes

but suited Vader it could go either way with a good fight but Hord likely wins

This is where I disagree; I have no definitive answer to this thread and that's why I created it.

No version of suited Vader can win this contest. Hord has ACT 2 Nox scaling as well as Ancients scaling. It's far more impressive than anything Vader has.

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:The 80% of palps one

Which I explained above is completely unquantifiable and is refrenced with maybe

Well the goal of the rule of two line was for the sith to grow with every generation, it’s confirmed that this worked, Bane made this because the sith had stagnated after the New sith Wars, implying that it was on a constant incline beforehand and then again with the banites, so its apparent that Vader living this far after Hord is more probably more powerful but he could be around the same level as Hord considering his lived in the Golden age,

Two major problems here:

(1). Tulak isn't any banite sith and so wouldn't apply to the Banite growth

(2). Vader doesn't get banite scaling as he's never killed Sidious, or growing powerful enough to even do(e.g he doesn't get banite scaling)
If you can explain either of these problems here; I would be happy

Well we know Vader is always growing

Which is a bit vague on it's own isn't it?

An yeh that last quote is weird but I’ve checked it myself with a mate who speaks French an, an actual French person and we both got that result

As Azronger explained in another thread. I'd like a lot of french to go on and confirm the same thing.

So I gues Hord could be more powerful than Suited Vader seeing his accolades and feats, Vader just seems to probably be higher from a scaling point of view but tbh it can go either way with that
An I think feats and accolades are more reliable when ranking people so I think Hord could get this tbh I agree

So are we in agreement that Pre suit Vader smashes Hord

Yes

but suited Vader it could go either way with a good fight but Hord likely wins

This is where I disagree; I have no definitive answer to this thread and that's why I created it.

I know, you asked what proof there is to show how the sith are constantly growing so I was just saying that the Rule Of two was made to get the sith back to being as powerful as they used to be, implying that the sith were once always growing in power until they stagnated, Hord was alive before they stagnated so he’s gonna still be powerful

Well with each generation the Apprentice will also generally be more powerful, and although the 80% quote does have a ‘maybe’ it does still mean he’s around 80% cos he’s not gonna say maybe 80% when he means 20% hahaha

We know Vader’s still very powerful from scaling too, we know he’s second only to Palpatine which means he’s above Jerec who was around Kyle Katarns level and Kyle Katarns a beast

Vaelias wrote:I know, you asked what proof there is to show how the sith are constantly growing so I was just saying that the Rule Of two was made to get the sith back to being as powerful as they used to be, implying that the sith were once always growing in power until they stagnated, Hord was alive before they stagnated so he’s gonna still be powerful

The rule of two and Tulak Hord have no relevance together at all.

Well with each generation the Apprentice will also generally be more powerful, and although the 80% quote does have a ‘maybe’ it does still mean he’s around 80% cos he’s not gonna say maybe 80% when he means 20% hahaha

1. True, but we know very well Vader never reached that level where he could surpass Sidious(especially not in his suit).

2. If you could lay out what other characters would be on this percentage scale then that would be appreciated. We really have no way of knowing how 80% actually manifests in combat too.

We know Vader’s still very powerful from scaling too, we know he’s second only to Palpatine which means he’s above Jerec who was around Kyle Katarns level and Kyle Katarns a beast

It feels like we are both just walking in circles now... not liking that feeling

BreakofDawn wrote:Vader, handily.

May I ask why?

Seturna wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Vader, handily.

May I ask why?

@Seturna Sure. Feat wise, he's generally impressed me much more, from shaking warehouses to collapsing cathedrals/labyrinths while wounded, without a breathing mask and struck between the Light and Dark.

I also don't take Khem Val's fanfictions about Hord's "Endar Spire size ship" levelling feat literally and as an indication of something he could do either in combat nor if it was accomplished through sorcery, TK, or other means, just as I don't take hearsay about Vader casually grabbing shuttles out of the sky and throwing them together literally just because someone says so.

I also don't think scaling from Nox is nearly good enough to match Vader scaling off early or mid-game Galen and competing with endgame Galen, given that Nox herself has consistently failed to impress me.

Similarly, I think Vader's power growth is far more obvious and far greater than Hord's, to the point that scarcely a few weeks after Mustafar he could blast and potentially kill countless troops with a single Force Wave and later blitz and overpower accomplished Jedi Masters (who have feats, accolades and hype, including one being a potential Council member), after three months easily overpower Morne with around 3,950 years of growth (disoriented by grief/anger/hatred or not) while holding back and was unfazed by her enraged Force attacks past the first which surprised him, a year thereafter shake a Coruscanti warehouse at the foundations just with the force of his anger, and by the time of 1 BBY could go back and forth with pre-boost endgame Galen who scales immensely above mid-Council members like Shaak Ti, as well as other impressive feats.

The only area I can see Hord winning in is either esoteric abilities (which I'm confident Vader can counter) or saber skill (where he's pretty much all hype from Khem Val and vague references in IU and OOU sources). In power, I think prime Vader greatly outstrips him.

Note that I'm not an expert on Hord by any stretch, so these are all based off my limited knowledge of him from playing SWTOR, the KOTOR games and reading different RTs and blogs on him.

CuckedCurry wrote:

Vaelias wrote:I’ll get back to u in a bit I’m smashing the fuck out of triceps

You’re not smashing anything if you’re able to pick up your phone, go to Google, search Suspect Insight, find a topic and then comment on said topic. Should be banned from the gym for being a Eugene 

Hahaha just saw this. I’ve got this website on a little icon at the top so it’s easy to access whilst smashing triceps

CuckedCurry wrote:

Vaelias wrote:I’ll get back to u in a bit I’m smashing the fuck out of triceps

You’re not smashing anything if you’re able to pick up your phone, go to Google, search Suspect Insight, find a topic and then comment on said topic. Should be banned from the gym for being a Eugene 

Hahaha just saw this. I’ve got this website on a little icon at the top so it’s easy to access whilst smashing triceps

Thinking face emoji 🧐

Vader dies.

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:I know, you asked what proof there is to show how the sith are constantly growing so I was just saying that the Rule Of two was made to get the sith back to being as powerful as they used to be, implying that the sith were once always growing in power until they stagnated, Hord was alive before they stagnated so he’s gonna still be powerful

The rule of two and Tulak Hord have no relevance together at all.

Well with each generation the Apprentice will also generally be more powerful, and although the 80% quote does have a ‘maybe’ it does still mean he’s around 80% cos he’s not gonna say maybe 80% when he means 20% hahaha

1. True, but we know very well Vader never reached that level where he could surpass Sidious(especially not in his suit).

2. If you could lay out what other characters would be on this percentage scale then that would be appreciated. We really have no way of knowing how 80% actually manifests in combat too.

We know Vader’s still very powerful from scaling too, we know he’s second only to Palpatine which means he’s above Jerec who was around Kyle Katarns level and Kyle Katarns a beast

It feels like we are both just walking in circles now... not liking that feeling

I know Hord has nothing to do with the rule of two I’m just saying that the very fact the rule of two exists is to allow the sith to be constantly growing again like they used to in Hords Era,

Around 80% of the emperor I’d say are
Suit Vader, Tyranus, Dreadmasters, Darth Malgus and the emperors wrath
Then maybe on the lower end of that you have Nihilus, Ragnos, Tulak Hord an Ulic Qel Droma

I think we have the same conclusion tho right ?

@Breakofdawn

Vaelias wrote:I know Hord has nothing to do with the rule of two I’m just saying that the very fact the rule of two exists is to allow the sith to be constantly growing again like they used to in Hords Era

Indeed

Around 80% of the emperor I’d say are
Suit Vader, Tyranus, Dreadmasters, Darth Malgus and the emperors wrath
Then maybe on the lower end of that you have Nihilus, Ragnos, Tulak Hord an Ulic Qel Droma

This is just what your ideal thinking of the metric is; We really have no way on how maybe 80% translates into combat... But we know Vader isn't close to Sidious anyway per Lucas too.

I think we have the same conclusion tho right ?

We don't

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote:I know Hord has nothing to do with the rule of two I’m just saying that the very fact the rule of two exists is to allow the sith to be constantly growing again like they used to in Hords Era

Indeed

Around 80% of the emperor I’d say are
Suit Vader, Tyranus, Dreadmasters, Darth Malgus and the emperors wrath
Then maybe on the lower end of that you have Nihilus, Ragnos, Tulak Hord an Ulic Qel Droma

This is just what your ideal thinking of the metric is; We really have no way on how maybe 80% translates into combat... But we know Vader isn't close to Sidious anyway per Lucas too.

I think we have the same conclusion tho right ?

We don't

Yeh we have no way of knowing but those are the guys high on my list that fit above a huge power gap, which Vader wouldn’t be below otherwise he wouldn’t be anywhere near 80% so he’ll be around the same strength as those guys, that is still quite a fair bit less powerful than ROTJ Sidious

And I Havnt even touched on feats I’m only talking about scaling

What’s your conclusion then I thought we agreed that pre suit Vader wins, and now what’s your opinion on suit Vader, I think it could go either way but with a possible majority to Vader

Vaelias wrote: Yeh we have no way of knowing but those are the guys high on my list that fit above a huge power gap, which Vader wouldn’t be below otherwise he wouldn’t be anywhere near 80% so he’ll be around the same strength as those guys, that is still quite a fair bit less powerful than ROTJ Sidious

But it’s completely unquantifiable still and has no reference point to how it actually manifests in combat though? We have George saying that Sidious would just raise a hand to beat Vader. So there’s still a one-shot gap between those two... if only we could actually quantify what 80% actually is then that could be used in versus dicussions... until then BEGONE

And I Havnt even touched on feats I’m only talking about scaling

Totally fine it is.

What’s your conclusion then I thought we agreed that pre suit Vader wins, and now what’s your opinion on suit Vader, I think it could go either way but with a possible majority to Vader

I agree on that Pre-suit Vader would destroy Hord. My original thought of Suit Vader vs Tulak Hord is non-existent.

Seturna wrote:

Vaelias wrote: Yeh we have no way of knowing but those are the guys high on my list that fit above a huge power gap, which Vader wouldn’t be below otherwise he wouldn’t be anywhere near 80% so he’ll be around the same strength as those guys, that is still quite a fair bit less powerful than ROTJ Sidious

But it’s completely unquantifiable still and has no reference point to how it actually manifests in combat though? We have George saying that Sidious would just raise a hand to beat Vader. So there’s still a one-shot gap between those two... if only we could actually quantify what 80% actually is then that could be used in versus dicussions... until then BEGONE

And I Havnt even touched on feats I’m only talking about scaling

Totally fine it is.

What’s your conclusion then I thought we agreed that pre suit Vader wins, and now what’s your opinion on suit Vader, I think it could go either way but with a possible majority to Vader

I agree on that Pre-suit Vader would destroy Hord. My original thought of Suit Vader vs Tulak Hord is non-existent.

Breakofdawn describes why Vader is superior to Hord in terms of feats, in scaling I’ve described as best we can now Vader is most likely above Hord,

Quantifying what 80% is impossible but being 80% it safe to assume that he’s not at the lower end of the huge power gaps that are between ROTJ Sheev and other characters below him
Also given that Luke stated that Caedus might be more powerful than Vader implies that Vader is around Caedus level given that Luke was unsure wether Caedus was actually more powerful than Vader given he used the word maybe