Palpatine’s Apprentices vs RoTS Sidious

Dooku and Vader alone could win, Maul is not necessary. Trio decimates honestly.

Unending Void wrote:Dooku and Vader alone could win, Maul is not necessary. Trio decimates honestly.

Why?

Meatpants wrote:

Unending Void wrote:Dooku and Vader alone could win, Maul is not necessary. Trio decimates honestly.

Why?

Dooku is close enough to the ROTS titans that he can present a credible threat to ROTS Sidious alone although he wouldn't win. Vader by ROTJ was around 80% of the Emperor's power, which I'm not sure is referring to ROTS Sidious or ROTJ Sidious but it doesn't matter either way because the duo would still be more powerful. I doubt any of the 3 Sith would go down to Sidious quickly in sabers. The only one who Sidious could ragdoll with the force is Maul and I doubt Palpatine could instantly remove him from the fight before Dooku and Vader retaliate with their own offensive.

@Unending Void:

Dooku is close enough to the ROTS titans that he can present a credible threat to ROTS Sidious alone although he wouldn't win.

He's not. The dude was beaten in 12 seconds by Anakin, who's only equal to the emperor in power at his apex, which he hadn't yet reached.

Vader by ROTJ was around 80% of the Emperor's power, which I'm not sure is referring to ROTS Sidious or ROTJ Sidious but it doesn't matter either way because the duo would still be more powerful.

The percentage is clearly Lucas throwing out a number at random, hence why it's prefaced with a "maybe". There's no way to quantfy how it manifests combatively, and Lucas's other statements cap Vader below TPM Kenobi, so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't intended as a favourable comparison for Vader.

I doubt any of the 3 Sith would go down to Sidious quickly in sabers.

Given Maul was put down swiftly by Sheev even while amped, Vader is below TPM Kenobi, and Dooku can't hold against Anakin for 15 seconds I'm calling BS on that.

The only one who Sidious could ragdoll with the force is Maul

Sheev demonstrably can't ragdoll him, as shown by SC. That said, he can subdue Vader via TK, and Dooku/Maul are so outclassed in sabers it doesn't matter that he can't one shot them too.

@Sjuttiosju

He's not. The dude was beaten in 12 seconds by Anakin, who's only equal to the emperor in power at his apex, which he hadn't yet reached.

Count Dooku, who is tired from having just outfought Kenobi and Skywalker, and at a stylistic and physical disadvantage against Anakin, was defeated in around 12 seconds of active combat against an amped Anakin Skywalker*

I'm not sure why you're using this as an anti-feat for Dooku but okay..

The percentage is clearly Lucas throwing out a number at random, hence why it's prefaced with a "maybe". There's no way to quantfy how it manifests combatively, and Lucas's other statements cap Vader below TPM Kenobi, so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't intended as a favourable comparison for Vader.

80% in itself is vague and nothing caps Vader below TPM Kenobi. The most you could lowball would be beneath TPM Maul or Qui Gon and that wasn't ROTJ Vader, who has many statements that claim he was in his prime at the time of that film. Regardless of the fact that this is difficult to quantify, Vader is still not vastly beneath Sidious and that's enough for him and Dooku to win, let alone with Maul in the picture.

Given Maul was put down swiftly by Sheev even while amped, Vader is below TPM Kenobi, and Dooku can't hold against Anakin for 15 seconds I'm calling BS on that.

Maul held his own rather impressively against a pre-ROTS Sheev. For slightly less than 10 seconds, Maul had Sidious on the backfoot before being hit away. Right after that, Sidious has Maul giving ground for slightly less than 10 seconds before he is kicked away. Judging by his expression this is where he decides to get serious and, with noticeable effort, overpowers Maul in a bladelock and proceeds to ragdoll him.

Sheev demonstrably can't ragdoll him, as shown by SC. That said, he can subdue Vader via TK, and Dooku/Maul are so outclassed in sabers it doesn't matter that he can't one shot them too.

Sheev already ragdolled a more powerful Maul than the one being used in this thread twice. At the beginning of their fight and at the end of it. What makes you say he can't do that here? Even if he does, again, Dooku and Vader will be free to retaliate. He can't subdue Vader with TK because this is not a 1v1. Dooku and Maul are also threats. He can only subdue Vader with lightning and he'd have to focus 100% on him in order for that to happen, which he can't do in a 3v1. Vader will block it with his lightsaber. If he attacks Dooku with lightning, Dooku will defend with his own lightning which, while not as powerful, is enough to hold him off for the other two to attack Sidious. Sidious is cornered here. Even if he focuses strictly on sabers the most I can see happening is Maul dying while the other two kill him. He's overwhelmed.

@Unending Void:

Count Dooku, who is tired from having just outfought Kenobi and Skywalker, and at a stylistic and physical disadvantage against Anakin, was defeated in around 12 seconds of active combat against an amped Anakin Skywalker*

Oh boy, the 2012 debating has once again decided to rear its ugly head:

A) Dooku recovers his reserves moments prior. He wasn't hindered, but fighting at the peak of his capabilities.

B) The stylistic edge is not attributed to Anakin as a primary factor for his victory. Stover's novel makes it abundantly clear Dooku was just a "joke" to Anakin in force power.

C) Dooku's physical disadvantage is because he's outclassed in augmentation and force power. You're basically just agreeing with my point here.

D) That the combat was active doesn't alter the fact that per the text in the SN, and the timeframe of the movie, it wasn't close.

E) Anakin being amped is irrelevant considering he's even more powerful than his amped self when he goes full blown DS later. By which point he's only equal to Sheev, per Lucas.

I'm not sure why you're using this as an anti-feat for Dooku but okay..

Because it is, at least when you're comparing him to Sheev. Nice try though.

80% in itself is vague and nothing caps Vader below TPM Kenobi.

It being vague is the point. You can't quantify it, and as a result it's completely useless in a debate. As for capping Vader below TPM Kenobi:

George Lucas wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

Lucas specifically says that the faster choreography in TPM is meant to reflect the superior calibre of fighting on the part of Jinn, Maul and Kenobi relative to Vader.

The most you could lowball would be beneath TPM Maul or Qui Gon and that wasn't ROTJ Vader, who has many statements that claim he was in his prime at the time of that film.

The quote above is referencing the entire OT, including ROTJ, so his growth doesn't matter.

Regardless of the fact that this is difficult to quantify, Vader is still not vastly beneath Sidious and that's enough for him and Dooku to win, let alone with Maul in the picture.

Basically you're admitting that the statement is unquantifiable, but are still holding that Vader doesn't suck, in spite of the clear evidence suggesting he's below Obi-Wan as early as TPM? How dishonest can you get?

Maul held his own rather impressively against a pre-ROTS Sheev. For slightly less than 10 seconds, Maul had Sidious on the backfoot before being hit away. Right after that, Sidious has Maul giving ground for slightly less than 10 seconds before he is kicked away.

You concede in the next sentence that Sheev was toying with him, so this doesn't matter.

Judging by his expression this is where he decides to get serious and, with noticeable effort, overpowers Maul in a bladelock and proceeds to ragdoll him.

Great, you're admitting that all it took was a blade lock and then Maul was finished (proof is required Sheev was struggling during said lock btw). Glad we got that sorted out. And given Sheev renders him helpless with speed in the novel, I think we can kiss any argument of Maul doing anything here goodbye.

Sheev already ragdolled a more powerful Maul than the one being used in this thread twice. At the beginning of their fight and at the end of it.

That's not ragdolling in the sense I'm speaking about. He's not directly breaching Maul's barrier but creating openings or catching him off guard. Neither of which he can do on the fly.

He can't subdue Vader with TK because this is not a 1v1.

Given Sids can blitz TPM Maul, who is massively above Vader, we can deduce he's capable of ragdolling him, no matter the numbers.

The rest of your post is just a bunch of unsubstantiated claims about what they can do against Sids, all of which are debunked by the evidence in this post, so I don't feel compelled to work through that last paragraph. Now, either start proving your points or leave, I don't care which.

Sheev cleans house, laughing.

@BigMouthPrick

I. MAUL

BigMouthPrick wrote:The Maul Journal quote is meaningless as his visual perception of a blade's movements being a blur can be found pretty much everywhere lightsaber duels without implicating that the observer cannot react. E.g Bane's lightsaber being described as a blur against Zannah (yet she can contend with him); regardless, force users use their farsight and precognition to fight (This is the first thing taught to ANH Luke with the training droid on the Millinnium Falcon), not their eyesight primarily.

You have misread what both the text and I wrote. Maul did not see Sidious as “a blur”; he did not perceive Sidious at all, not with his eyes, nor with the Force. From Maul’s point of view, Sidious basically vanished from existence, moving so fast that he was tracing the outline of Maul’s body with unerring precision and would have killed Maul had he so much as flinched. Even if Maul has a weapon in this fight, how can he possibly block even a single strike from Sidious if merely flinching the smallest muscle gets him killed?

BigMouthPrick wrote: TCW Maul held his own against Sheev.

This is TPM Maul, so using the more powerful TCW Maul’s performance as evidence doesn’t work. Regardless, Maul did not hold his own against Sidious, as I define it, even then. The lead-up to the final clash has Sidious butchering Savage, to which Maul reacts with shock and sadness, and then Sidious mocking Maul for having been replaced by Dooku. This runs in parallel with the events of Maul’s final trial to become a Sith Lord on Hypori decades earlier: Sidious belittles Maul’s significance and effectively strips all his struggles and life of meaning by telling him of the existence of a second apprentice whom Sidious has chosen to replace Maul. This induces an unprecedented blood-rage in the prospective Sith apprentice that transforms him from a delirious wreck who could barely stand to being more powerful than ever and nearly even defeating Sidious.

On Mandalore, Maul is seen visibly shaking in anger directly in response to Sidious’s diatribe regarding the very same subject matter: Maul’s worth as a Sith. Moreover, Sidious’s remarks have the added subtext of being about Dooku whom Maul views as a Sith pretender. It’s not just “You’re unworthy of being a Sith”; it’s “You’re so unworthy even a former Jedi is more fit than you.” And, of course, Sidious has just murdered his brother, who, despite Maul’s domineering exterior, was in fact dear to him. If the Hypori incident is of any indication, Maul should have received an amplification of astronomical proportions.

Star Wars: The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:It was while he was trying to eat a tough-skinned lizard at the base of a cliff that two droids attacked. Maul defeated both droids but sustained a blaster wound to his thigh. Limping into a ravine, he found a large cave and hauled his body into it. Maul knew he had to recover before he could fight again. But without his survival pack, he had no healing bacta or bandages.

The wound festered. The pain was blinding. He listened for approaching droids but heard none. The days blurred, but Maul was almost certain that a full month had passed since he had arrived on Hypori. As he fell into and out of restless sleep. Maul began to wonder if his Master had forgotten him.

His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mount of the cave.

It was Sidious.

Maul could not believe his eyes. He felt not only relieved to see his Master, but genuinely glad. His Master would help him.

Sidious moved into the cave. He came to a stop near Maul. Smiling as he looked down at his apprentice, he said. “Now it is time for your final battle.”

Maul wondered if he had heard correctly. He knew his Master must have been able to see plainly that he was not fit to stand. And yet he also knew his Master never tolerated weakness of any kind. Maul scrabbled at the cave’s walls and pulled himself up. His balance was off. Searing pain shot through his leg as he lurched forward.

Sidious handed Maul a lightsaber. Maul fumbled with the weapon and activated it. The cave’s walls shimmered with light.

Maul did not realize how parched his throat was until he rasped, “Where is the assassin droid, Master?”

Stepping back from Maul, Sidious drew his own lightsaber and ignited its red blade. “I will be your opponent.”

Maul stared at his Master with disbelief. And then his disbelief changed to anger. He summoned up the dark side of the Force. He felt a burning sensation flicker and grow within him, a trickle of strength. He took a step toward his Master.

Sidious sneered. “You cannot be as pathetic as you look.” He raised his lightsaber and attacked.

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to hinge at empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave’s wall.

Sidious said from behind Maul. “You are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you.”

Maul’s anger turned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. He fell against the opposite wall and gasped for breath.

Sidious howled with laughter. “I expected your failure. I saw your weaknesses long ago. Your doubts in your own abilities. Your lack of faith in my teaching. Your inability to embrace the dark side. And that is why, over these long years, I have secretly trained another apprentice.”

Maul stared hard at Sidious.

“Oh, poor Maul. All he ever wanted was a friend. Does it please you to know I have another apprentice? Does it make you feel less alone?”

Still trying to catch his breath. Maul said. “More than one apprentice... is against the rules of the Sith.”

“You are right,” Sidious said with a grin. “A spark of intelligence, at last.” He gestured to the mouth of the cave. “My second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He only sustained a flesh wound. He is healthy. He is strong. Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me.”

Maul realized his opponents had not really been the assassin droids. He thought of all the punishment he had endured over the past month, and then of the unending punishments of his entire life. He thought of his true opponent, the unseen adversary, chosen by Sidious to become a Sith Lord. Maul felt robbed of his past and future. And then a rage unlike anything he had ever felt before swelled through him. The rage was so overwhelming that he thought it might consume him.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master. Glaring at Sidious, Maul saw the true face of his enemy.

Sidious snickered. “Can you understand? Focus. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die, Maul?”

Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything. And more than anything else, he wanted his Master’s blood.

Maul sprang at Sidious. Sidious barely missed the first blow from Maul’s lightsaber, an upward swing that aimed to rip Sidious in half. Maul swung again but Sidious deflected the blow and retreated. As Maul moved across the rough cave floor, sweat stung his eyes, but he did not stumble. He somersaulted through the air, his lightsaber whirling in the darkness. Sidious raised his lightsaber to parry the next blow, which was so powerful it made him stagger backward. As Maul struck again, he thought, I’m going to kill him.

Sidious parried every blow, but Maul could tell his Master was working hard to keep him at bay. As Sidious backed up against the wall, he said, “You want to kill me? You want to kill your Master?”

“Yes,” Maul grunted.

“You hate me?”

“Yes!” Maul screamed through clenched teeth.

Sidious shifted like a liquid shadow, maneuvering around his apprentice. Maul was suddenly up against the wall, gasping for breath as his vision blurred. His strength was evaporating. He turned fast to see Sidious. Sidious lashed out with his lightsaber. Maul parried the blow, but then his lightsaber suddenly flew from his hand.

Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul wrote:I land on the planet and begin my test. It is infinitely more difficult than my imagination has been able to grasp. The assassin droids are relentless. Again and again I am awakened by an attack. Again and again I fight, move camp, fight again. I am driven into the mountain snows and across the burning desert. I lose my survival pack in a battle and have to kill and forage for food.

Ten days go by. Fifteen. Twenty.

I grow thin and my strength begins to ebb. I have never felt such weakness, even during my fasts. And yet I have to go on. I have to fight, I have to find a place to rest, I have to fight again. I count off the days in my head.

One battle with two assassin droids almost undoes me. I sustain a bad blaster wound to my thigh. I drag myself to a cave to hide. I have no bacta, no bandages. Yet I know I must recover before I fight again.

The wound festers. It is a searing, blinding pain. I am too weak to forage for food. The days blur. I no longer know how long I've been on the planet. Surely it has been more than a month. Has my Master forgotten about me?

I am close to hallucinating when Lord Sidious appears at the mouth of the cave. I am so glad to see him that my bones turn to water. I look at him hopefully.

"Now it is time for your final battle, " he says.

Another battle? I can't even walk.

Yet his power over me is so strong that I rise on my watery legs. The cave walls shimmer in front of my eyes. My balance is off. I fumble for my lightsaber and activate it.

"Where is the assassin droid, Master?" I ask. My voice emerges hoarsely from thick, swollen lips. I need water. I would kill for water.

My Master powers up his lightsaber. "I will be your opponent. "

I take a step toward him. I know this is my final test. I summon up the dark side of the Force. I take all my pain and anger and form it into a tightly packed ball. I set that ball aflame in my chest.

I feel a trickle of strength enter me. That encourages me. I use that strength to stoke the fire inside me.
"You cannot be as pathetic as you look, " my Master says. He raises his lightsaber and attacks.

I parry the blow and reverse, come at him from the opposite side. But he is already gone by the time I am able to make my attack. The lunge throws off my balance. I weave, the cave walls blurring. He laughs.

"I take it back, " he says. "You are that pathetic. "

He tells me I am weak, not worthy of being a Sith Lord. He tells me he has misjudged me. I attempt to attack him. The ball of anger inside me turns to howling rage. It is painfully obvious that he is playing with me. He can kill me in a heartbeat. Yet something in me will not accept this, even from my Master. My life force won't allow it. I struggle on, even in the face of his laughter.

He tells me that he has expected my failure. He saw my weaknesses long ago. Secretly, over the long years, he has trained another apprentice. I have not been alone.

I point out, gasping, that more than one apprentice is against the rules of the Sith.

"You are right, " he says. "A spark of intelligence at last. "

The second apprentice is on the other side of the planet. He conquered all the assassin droids sent after him. He did not sustain more than a flesh wound. He is healthy and strong.

"Unlike the pathetic weakling I see before me, " my Master says.

I realize dully what this means. My opponents had not really been the droids. My opponent had been someone I had never seen. My enemy has been chosen by my Master. He will become a Sith Lord. He will receive the honor I was due. He will reap the glory I had punished my body and disciplined my mind in order to receive.

A slow rage begins to burn through me. It is a terrible anger, no less fierce because it starts as a kernel of disbelief and then builds. I have never felt anything like it. I know it can consume me.

No. I can direct it. My rage will consume my enemy. It will consume my Master.

Yes, my Master is now my enemy. He is my betrayer. Hatred sears me, hardens me.

"Can you make the next leap in logic?" Lord Sidious asks me contemptuously. "Try to focus, Maul. If there can be only one apprentice, then one of you must die. Who do you think I have chosen to die. Maul?"

The rage rockets within me, pumping energy into my muscles. I can do anything. I can kill my Master. I want to kill him. My hatred is so huge it blots everything else but my desire for his blood.

With a howl torn from the depths of my belly, I spring at him. He barely misses the first blow from my lightsaber, for even in my rage I have employed strategy, coming at him from below, hoping to rip him in two.

He parries my next blow. Sweat stings my eyes as I move across the rough cave floor. I do not stumble. I am nothing but the pulse of my anger, pure energy, pure darkness. I streak across the cave floor and come at him again, somersaulting through the air. My lightsaber whirls in the darkness. When he parries the blow, he staggers.

I am going to kill him. Every beat of my blood exults in my power. Every blow I deliver is meant to be the killing blow. I use reserves of strength I did not know I had. My blows are sure and precise, my footwork flawless. I gather in the power of the dark side. I feel my power clash with his. The air is thick, charged with our dark, titanic powers.

He parries every blow. But I see that he has to work hard to keep me at bay. Triumph roars through me at my Master's weakness. He is not as powerful as he appears.

"You want to kill me?" he taunts. "You want to kill your Master?"

"Yes, " I grunt.

"You hate me?"

"Yes!" I scream out the word through gritted teeth.

But I have been weakened by my ordeal, and my Master maneuvers me against the cave wall. I am gasping, trying to suck in enough air to keep going. My vision blurs as Lord Sidious raises his lightsaber. I parry the blow, but my lightsaber suddenly flies out of my hand, torn by the power of my Master directing the dark side. I realize then that he has just begun to tap into his own reserves. Mine are played out.

cf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=3m30s

That is the context in which Maul’s performance happened; it should not be examined in a vacuum. Furthermore, Sidious did not expend maximum effort in the final clash: he is seen bringing forth as-of-yet-unseen reserves of strength when he instantly overpowers Maul in a bladelock from a disadvantaged position. Had Maul been genuinely matching Palpatine’s full might, he would have overpowered him in the bladelock, as he was indeed about to before Sheev ramped up his output. The novelization reveals this restraint was also at play in the realm of speed: Palpatine rapidly accelerates his strikes to the point where Maul cannot even count how many blades he is appearing to wield, and then even more until Maul is disarmed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7hBZNsPnyg&t=4m15s

+

Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Darth Maul - Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor. Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam. He tried to get up, but realized he was already in the air, held aloft by the Force. Sidious slammed him into the floor. Then Maul was off the ground again, legs kicking for purchase in empty air. He could taste blood in his mouth. His head hit the wall with a sickening crunch.

Both versions demonstrate that Sidious could have ended the fight whenever he wanted to - that he chose to do so after 20 seconds in the episode is not proof that Maul can legitimately contend with Palpatine for 20 seconds, even disregarding the fact that his combat prowess was increased by several orders of magnitude (the Hypori amp is the difference between briefly matching 37 BBY Sidious and barely being able to walk). Baseline TCW Maul, not to mention the much weaker TPM Maul, would be fodderized efficiently, effortlessly, and instantly.

BigMouthPrick wrote:Sidious had to separate Maul from Savage to gut the latter.

Citation needed for Sidious being forced to separate the brothers to defeat them.

II. DOOKU

BigMouthPrick wrote:Source for RotS Sheev being superior to IH/Mustafar Anakin/Vader in Sabers?

Anakin on the Invisible Hand is still most likely a level 8. After his brief brush with the dark side, his light side half surpasses his Dooku-crushing self. After fully being anointed as a Sith Lord, Vader’s power increases even further, climaxing on Mustafar where he taps into the Force as he never has before.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:He had dreamed of capturing Grievous ever since Muunilinst-and now the general was close. So close Anakin could practically smell him . . . and Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:"Good . . . good . . . Together, we shall master every secret of the Force." The Sith Lord purred like a contented rancor. "You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"

"Yes, my Master."

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his "Master" already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis's discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden . . . transformation.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625093450819436544/640996549224300544/Mustafar_Vader_better_than_Anakin_1.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625093450819436544/640996574243323915/Mustafar_Vader_better_than_Anakin_2.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/666420840576974869/695348085030781038/Anakin_and_Obi-Wan_tap_into_the_Force_as_they_never_have_before.PNG

Sidious is a level 9 throughout ROTS. All level nines are mostly equal in dueling prowess with the only differences arising in the form of stylistic and environmental advantages. Lucas has even stated that on Mustafar, Vader is equal in power to Sidious. Sidious therefore benefits from all the growth Vader has undergone since he stomped Dooku. Even if it came to a strict lightsaber duel, he would defeat his apprentice even faster than Anakin did, probably in less than 10 seconds. Lucas has corroborated this by stating only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor, meaning Dooku obviously cannot.

BigMouthPrick wrote:Dooku has contended with Yoda on more than one occasion who is comparable to Sidious is sabers to put it nicely

Dooku has contended with Yoda in AOTC - when Lucas held them as exact equals - and later during the Clone Wars. Their dynamic clearly doesn’t remain the same leading up to ROTS, though - the evidence I have posted above and your own words admitting Dooku’s inferiority to Sidious (Yoda’s effective equal in ROTS) are in itself evidence Yoda’s growth during the war outpaced Dooku’s. There are no grounds for Dooku contending with Yoda or Sidious during ROTS.

BigMouthPrick wrote:He can deflect lightning of at least his own power without much effort:

Your initial claim was that Dooku has the ability to counter Sidious’s Force attacks, for which I requested a citation. The fact that Dooku can counter his own (i.e. not Sidious’s) lightning does not in any way satisfy that. It’s the equivalent for arguing that because a character can deflect a blaster bolt, they can also deflect the Death Star superlaser.

BigMouthPrick wrote:Doesn't matter though unless he's disarmed. Windu and Yoda were not helpless. This is helpless:

You are quibbling over minutiae. The point of my scans was to show that even a lightsaber is not enough to defend against Sidious’s lightning - Yoda is overpowered and tossed out of the podium, Windu is screaming for Anakin’s help and has his guard circumvented (the novelization even depicts his blade literally being bent by the lightning’s intensity) - and that Sidious is quick enough on the draw to disarm even Yoda. Whether that meets your personal criteria for being “helpless” is entirely beside the point. Dooku is neither as fast nor as strong as either of the Jedi Masters; he would not be able to react to the speed of the lightning to block it, and, even if he succeeded, would not be able to hold the lightning back even with the aid of his lightsaber.

BigMouthPrick wrote:Sidious concentrating entirely on Mace meant he was theoretically vulnerable to Anakin. Had Anakin swung at him, he would be forced to disengage Mace, or at the very least divert one "hand/stream" of lightning at Anakin, which would halve the power of the attack against either one, allowing Mace to engage Sidious.

A similar scenario would occur in this fight if Sidious tries a sustained attacked. His only option is to integrate brief lightning attacks with his saber attacks (something which I have never seen him demonstrate personally—Dooku has countless feats of this being executed skillfully), or to incapacitate 2/3 combatants long enough to overwhelm one with lightning. How likely the latter scenario is, is the only thing to debate here IMO.

You have not substantiated this. Sidious left himself vulnerable because Mace with Vaapad was strong enough to require his full power and attention; Dooku is not. A quick burst is enough to send the Count flying across the room because he is not fast or powerful enough to block it. Maul and Vader would be similarly screwed. And none of the three would be able to exploit any sort of “opening” on Sidious even if he for a fleeting moment decides to focus on only one of them before he almost instantly moves onto the next target after incapacitating or killing the previous one.

As for Sidious integrating lightning into his lightsaber sequences, he did so in his fight with Yoda:

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

III. VADER

BigMouthPrick wrote:RotJ Sidious would be significantly more powerful in the force than his younger self as well, given his period of growth. I do not deny that Sidious would over-power any member of the trio individually, but he would leave himself vulnerable to attacks from the other two by doing so. If he attacks all three simultaneously with lightning, he would be diluting the power of the attack, which would be significantly easier to defend against.

You have not addressed my argument properly. As I said, Sidious’s power output with lightning whilst torturing Luke was less than that which is required to kill a non-Force-sensitive as evidenced by the fact that a defenseless and weakened Luke did not die from it even after prolonged exposure. Vader was specifically stated to not have stood a chance against that lightning, which was fired at an infinitely lower intensity than what ROTS Sidious would be capable of casually. He is the most powerful Sith Lord who has ever existed and scales above his predecessor’s feats, which far outstrip the potency of his lightning against Luke that Vader would have been toast against. His own feats during ROTS are also vastly superior. Ergo, the fact that ROTJ Sidious is more powerful than ROTS Sidious is irrelevant as he was holding back there.

Star Wars: Darth Bane - Rule of Two wrote:Bane didn't take the time to revel in the fear of his fallen enemies. Before they even hit the ground he'd turned his attention to the third opponent, unleashing a storm of Sith lightning that reduced the riders to ash and the drexl into a hunk of charred and smoking flesh that dropped from the sky.

Palpatine would not “leave himself vulnerable” if he fires a casual burst of lightning in one direction. He can spam such attacks with impunity from up close or afar and combo them into his lightsaber sequences. He only needs an infinitesimal fraction of his power to one-shot Vader, and his lightning at higher intensities can travel faster than even Yoda can react so there is no conceivable reality where Maul or Dooku would be able to do anything to him while he dispatches Vader. A storm of lightning targeting all at once Vader also wouldn’t survive - the power gap is too colossal.

CONCLUSION

BigMouthPrick wrote:I'm thinking more from the point of him spamming telekinesis attacks sort of like what he did in the senate chamber against Yoda with the podiums. And obviously he resorts to lightning once he gets disarmed.

I don’t see why it would resort to telekinesis at all in such a confined space. Lightning and lightsaber will do the trick.

BigMouthPrick wrote:1. It's obvious Sidious's force scream—"a wave of hatred, amplified and fueled by the dark side, that is capable of smashing through mental and physical defenses with ease."—played a part in his quick dispatching of Kit, Agen, and Tiin. Even if you choose not to believe that, this jedi trio are inferior combatants on the level of those which Maul, Vader, Dooku have defeated numerous times. They are not comparable.

Actually, he used a telepathic confusion haze. Your description of Force scream is from Wookieepedia. We actually have a video addressing that misconception:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQfpCRbigww

Anyway, citation needed for the B-team being below Maul and Vader.

BigMouthPrick wrote:2. Coordinated "Synergetic" attacks in rapid alternating succession diminishes an opponent's chance to launch a counter-attack any one opponent. This is not debatable. Sidious had to separate Maul from Savage to gut the latter. He will need to do the same here.

I don’t see what that would be the case. Maul would not be able to see or react to Sidious in any capacity - to survive, his comrades would have to stick their neck out specifically to protect him over defending himself or attacking Sidious. Dooku and Vader would also get demolished in sabers in seconds, and no one has the ability to defend or even react to Sidious’s Force lightning. Vader and Maul would instantly die upon contact.

Good effort Azronger; Once again you have proven yourself worthy of being the ultimate Sheevite. Certainly you've made your case for Legends, but do you feel the same with Disney Canon limitations?

I don't much discuss Canon, but the team probably wins in that scenario.

Master Azronger wrote:I don't much discuss Canon, but the team probably wins in that scenario.

Does this have to do with a speed disparity present when comparing Sidious's Legends iteration with his DC counterpart?

Well, no, it's just that Vader has a much better standing next to his Master in Canon than he does in Legends.

Master Azronger wrote:Well, no, it's just that Vader has a much better standing next to his Master in Canon than he does in Legends.

I wouldn't be so sure. A recent preview of the next Vader comic has come up and it seems to put the notion of Vader's peerhood or any parity to dirt:




Granted, an argument can be made for Vader that he wasn't expecting this, but considering he was able to react and defend himself but was still completely overpowered and zapped by Sidious doesn't bode well for where he sits in the power scale compared to Sheev..

That's 19 BBY, though, correct?

No, it's way after that. Not long after ESB but pre-ROTJ. It's already 3 ABY.

Ah, well I was referring to his standing next to ROTS Sidious who is the one used in the thread. Later incarnations are obviously extraneous.

It is worth nothing that Vader seems to be more resistant to electricity in his canon iteration opposed to the Legends incarnation of the character. His suit is less vulnerable to it. Even if he couldn't handle ROTS Sidious alone I suppose Dooku and Maul accomodate for this disparity.

Why are we assuming that Sidious was using his full power there though?

Meatpants wrote:Why are we assuming that Sidious was using his full power there though?

We aren't. There's no reason to assume he was going all-out there and no indication of it. He was just setting an example of Vader.

Sorry, I misread your stance.

Do people still unironically believe Maul was actually a threat to Sidious?

Unending Void wrote:It is worth nothing that Vader seems to be more resistant to electricity in his canon iteration opposed to the Legends incarnation of the character. His suit is less vulnerable to it. Even if he couldn't handle ROTS Sidious alone I suppose Dooku and Maul accomodate for this disparity.

Vader in Legends tanked a prolonged burst of disintegration grade lightning. Which is still better than just about anything he’s taken in canon apart from the Malachor blast.

Popped back for a quick visit, I see a couple of people are still trying to argue Lucas believes Vader to be sub TPM Jinn or Kenobi. Yikes.

Sheev wins in either Canon or in Legends. Good to great fight.

BoD wrote:Popped back for a quick visit, I see a couple of people are still trying to argue Lucas believes Vader to be sub TPM Jinn or Kenobi. Yikes.

@BoD: Welcome back! Was there a new quote revelation?

DarthAnt66 wrote:

BoD wrote:Popped back for a quick visit, I see a couple of people are still trying to argue Lucas believes Vader to be sub TPM Jinn or Kenobi. Yikes.

@BoD: Welcome back! Was there a new quote revelation?

Thanks. And a few that address elements of the quote and the meanings behind the individual wording. Working on something for it.