SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Plagueis (The Ellimist) vs. Valkorion (Azronger)

This is so surreal. Azronger is effectively killing his own brand.

For the record, my next response will have significantly more effort put into it than my last one.

I am giving @The Ellimist an extension until the 23rd.

Is it over?

Hopefully Az will be lenient. I get that it's annoying to wait, but it's the final. A disquaification is anti-climactic at this point lol.

@The Ellimist

Mate, please, please, don't abandon it lol.

Debunking nuke > Plagueis:

Plagueis surviving the detonation because he was warned beforehand clearly wouldn’t make him seem almost omnipotent to Sidious.

It says he “escaped” it, not that he tanked it, and then talks about how he’s vigilant and doesn’t let his guard down. Sidious is clearly referring to Plagueis’s ability to foresee threats.

Plagueis rearranging constellations:

Could have easily been a chain reaction. He’s clearly not that strong combatively.

By that same logic, Valkorion clearly isn’t VotJ level or “star draining” level combatively either, and so Ziost could’ve easily been a chain reaction.

Sidious supremacy quotes:

Aye, he had multiple contemporaneous personas, but only one of them was a Sith Lord. Plagueis’s accolade doesn’t apply to Valkorion.

Vitiate and Valkorion are literally the same person. They have the same spirit. Authoritative sources refer to this person as a Sith Lord long after he allegedly abandoned it as Valkorion, a claim that is only really supported by Valkorion’s own unreliable narrations.

Also, this wouldn’t counter the fact that Sidious is considered “the most powerful force of evil the galaxy had ever known”, which Maul is said to have served under, suggesting pre-boost TPM Sidious, who is scared of Plagueis.

And the “sith master” quote binds Vitiate -

This does not necessarily make him a Sith Master. It could simply make him a Sith teacher. Sidious himself distinguishes between the two.

So Valkorion is allegedly a star draining entity that can oneshot Plagueis, but he isn’t even a “sith master”? Really?

Debunking VotJ scaling:

There are several links along this chain and if even one is broken, the whole thing falls apart.

So right off the bat this fails because you haven’t established any relativity between the Nathema Sith and Kaan’s brotherhood. When when I pointed out that your only piece of evidence, “8000 of the most powerful” does not mean “the 8000 most powerful”, but rather means “a subset of size 8000 of the set of ‘the most powerful’”, you just replied with “And which college dropout came up with this logic?”, which isn’t even an argument.

I also noted that Valkorion clearly didn’t actually have the abilities that VotJ Jerec was said to have, given his numerous blunders that are way below alleged omniscience. You replied by saying that Jerec still lost to Kyle, but that doesn’t work because: 1) Kyle got him RIGHT as he got the powers before he could react - not the same as Valkorion failing multiple times with prep, and 2) all that would suggest if you were correct is that VotJ powers aren’t actually as combat applicable as you claim.

I noted that the alleged star busting omniscient powers of Valkorion can’t work because he’s bound under Knightfall Vader, the most powerful foe ever faced by the Jedi, and you replied by saying that the Jedi didn’t face Valkorion “as an organization”. I’m not sure what this means - scores of Jedi, including the Grandmaster, worked to face Valkorion, and certainly did in EoO (while this isn’t EoO Valkorion in the SS, the Knightfall Vader quote still binds him), and while maybe they didn’t all get together and have some 100% total organized resistance...they didn’t against Knightfall Vader either. The Jedi coordination against Valkorion was far larger than it was against Vader, which was just the Jedi defending the Temple, so the quote clearly applies.

Furthermore, you’ve never demonstrated that Valkorion solved the problem you noted yourself of channeling his energies. All you’ve said is that he claims he has to the Outlander a body of “supreme power”, which is just his own claim, and doesn’t even suggest 100% ability to manifest his power. Plagueis also claims that “nothing” is beyond his abilities in the novel. Is all you have the word of Valkorion?

Indeed...even if he could do that to Outlander’s body, he never actually got control of it! He can’t necessarily do it to his own body (or else he wouldn't need the Outlander’s…) so this whole point is moot lol.

It’s also clear that the ritual largely went into making him immortal. Your two examples, Scourge and Sion, have clear limitations - Vitiate wanted to be able to enjoy everything, while those two were in constant pain and agony.

Uh, no, he could have just bided his time like he did for entire two expansions while continuing to mold the Outlander into a suitable vessel. That he didn’t suggests the Outlander was already prime for containing his full power.

Or he was overconfident in his ability to TP the Outlander.

All of them are fighting for their lives, so it’s clear they are all using their full power. Despite this, the Outlander’s body is in perfectly fine condition. It proves Valkorion made it strong enough to contain his full power with just a flick of his wrist.

Valkorion as a spirit wouldn’t necessarily have access to his full power. No dark side spirits do (except for Palpatine).

Debunking star draining scaling:

Firstly, as noted above, we can use the same logic you used to try to debunk Plagueis’s death power as a “chain reaction” because it isn’t replicated in combat to this.

It also scales below the unbalancing:

I’ve asked you to prove that before and you haven’t. Also, prove that they unbalanced “the entire” Cosmic Force.

That’s what they said, and that’s what the Jedi felt, as you obviously are aware of. Are you saying they’re unreliable narrators? Both them and the Jedi being wrong independently? But then why is Valkorion a reliable narrator when he claims the Outlander’s body has “supreme power”?

The entire cosmic force is clearly beyond a single star, given that the unbalance of Plagueis’s death rearranged the constellations on a galactic scale.

Also, it was very likely a ritual and/or chain reaction effect, given that Valkorion has a history of using them - your response is that Plagueis’s feats could’ve all been rituals, but which ones? Plagueis doesn’t have a history of using rituals, and indeed has no talent for sorcery. His main feats indeed have been explicitly described in their mechanisms and clearly aren’t ritualistic, e.g. we see how midichlorian manipulation and the unbalancing worked and they involved him exercising his raw power and will.

You then say that Outlander saying Valkorion > Vaylin is Outlander thinking about peak Valkorion and not spirit Valkorion. Where’s your evidence for this?

Debunking “he ragdolled three Force users”:

You try to catch me in some sort of bind because I said Dramath “ragdolled” Valkorion and “ragdoll” implies I think is literal:

You said “ragdoll,” which is clearly in reference to a literal action. Don’t try to backpedal. Otherwise I will rewrite this entire debate.

I hope nobody takes that rebuttal seriously, lol. Firstly, you are presupposing that statements about mind-feats have to be caveated with “telepathically” every single verb despite the obvious clarification that I made myself at the same time that it wasn’t literal, and ability of people to therefore understand the connotation of what I said. Secondly, this just isn’t how the debate works - if a poster in an opening says “1 + 1 = 3”, that doesn’t mean that it is true just because the other party agrees. Even if I had meant literally ragdoll - which nobody in good faith would think I did - that doesn’t mean it’s true, and there’s actually no debate rule against “backpedaling” if that just means “correcting to more accurate statements”.

The Ritual of Nathema was "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" Note that Upekzar still existed as a Sith world during this era, so the Ritual of Nathema scales above it, and when condensed into one being, would be even more potent than Upekzar condensed into one being. Given Vitiate internalized the nexus, he is more powerful than even Palpatine or Abeloth, and therefore vastly more powerful than Plagueis.

Nah. Firstly, “largest” doesn’t necessarily mean “most concentrated” or “most powerful” - an individual like Palpatine or Abeloth may not have the same “size” nexus as an entire ritual, but that doesn’t show they’re less powerful. Secondly, this is all based on you being able to justify that Valkorion can use his full power, which you clearly haven’t been able to. Thirdly, this is assuming that none of the power went into immortality, or had to be used up as reserves over a thousand years. Fourthly, this quote is kind of vague because it’s not clear what “the galaxy would ever see” means, since the galaxy at-large didn’t know of Abeloth’s homeworld. Fifth, this is contradicted by a far larger amount of Sidious supremacy quotes.

Tanking Sidious’s lightning:

You only responded by saying Valkorion is way more powerful than Sidious and so can just choke Plagueis. But given that all the above feats fail, this stands as far beyond anything Valkorion has done, especially since if you take the mind fight seriously, he was ragdolled by Dramath. If that scene isn’t literal, then that means his main comba feat is irrelevant.

So:

Plagueis’s unbalancing feat is far beyond anything Valkorion has done
Plagueis’s tanking of Sidious’s lightning is a far greater combat feat than anything Valkorion has done (especially if you don’t include battles inside someone’s head)
None of Valkorion’s VotJ scaling claims work, for a variety of demonstrated reasons
Plagueis is a far superior combatant to Valkorion