Who can beat Valkorion?

SnowxElf wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:If Yoda gets close Valk will just throw up a force barrier to defend himself from Yoda’s saber. He’s not someone you can just blitz.

Why do you say so? Why do think if Yoda gets close Valk would be able to fend him off?

Because Valk would just do this

HellfireUnit wrote:Yes, exaggerated gameplay is surely legit, not to mention inside Satele's brain.

It’s not an environmental feat so that argument doesn’t stand.

Force entities, Sheev Palpatine, and Luke Skywalker.

HellfireUnit wrote:Yes, exaggerated gameplay is surely legit, not to mention inside Satele's brain.

and that's 3 Tenebrae's

WATCH



Literally no Jedi or Sith can tackle Tenebrae as a whole. His immortality aspect makes this impractical and his powers are too much to keep up with.

That wasn't just another coalition but the coalition with each member having significant powers of his/her own. Vaylin alone is substantially stronger than Darth Krayt and could apply Force Drain (hardcoded ability). Nothing was sufficient in the end until countless Force spirits manifested and brought their powers to bear against the entity.

Even Abeloth wasn't that difficult to overcome in her final battle.

KingKopecz wrote:

SnowxElf wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:If Yoda gets close Valk will just throw up a force barrier to defend himself from Yoda’s saber. He’s not someone you can just blitz.

Why do you say so? Why do think if Yoda gets close Valk would be able to fend him off?

Because Valk would just do this

Yoda has demonstrated better TK feats then Valk and is much more skilled. Valk can't easily just break through Yoda's TK barriers on a whim. Valk might be able to force push Yoda away but that doesn't mean he could keep doing it indefinitely. Yoda >>>> Arcann.

If this scan referring to bare handed blocking lightsabers. Even Vader not much after his suited incarnation was able to Tutaminis block a lightsaber strike away. Valk can do this because he's much much more powerful than Arcann, but he wouldn't be able to do this to Yoda.

SnowxElf wrote:If this scan referring to bare handed blocking lightsabers. Even Vader not much after his suited incarnation was able to Tutaminis block a lightsaber strike away. Valk can do this because he's much much more powerful than Arcann, but he wouldn't be able to do this to Yoda.

This isn't tutaminis. Valk is creating an impenetrable force barrier to swat away a lightsaber, not absorbing it. There is no reason why he can't do the same to Yoda.

SnowxElf wrote:Yoda has demonstrated better TK feats then Valk and is much more skilled. Valk can't easily just break through Yoda's TK barriers on a whim. Valk might be able to force push Yoda away but that doesn't mean he could keep doing it indefinitely. Yoda >>>> Arcann.

1) Yoda struggles to move 2 droid transports:

Considering Valk was able to one-shot Vaylin who has comparable feats to this with less difficulty, these feats aren't good proof of Yoda being superior to Valk.
2) Skill won't matter if your opponent is far more powerful.
3) Why is Yoda >>>> Arcann? They seem to be around the same level if anything.

That isn't even Yoda's best TK feat. How is Arcann comparable to Yoda?

This isn't tutaminis. Valk is creating an impenetrable force barrier to swat away a lightsaber, not absorbing it. There is no reason why he can't do the same to Yoda.

Same concept, and that still doesn't mean that he can do that to a superior opponent consistently.

@SnowxElf: Tenebrae overpowers Outlander, Revan, Vaylin, Arcann, Thexan, Senya, the Exile, Scourge, Marr, and Shan combined in the link I posted. I’m not following. Do you think that Yoda could duplicate such a feat? He’s never done anything a fraction of a fraction like that. Or, if your gripe is that it’s in Shan’s mindscape, look no further than Vol vs Abeloth to see how mindscape mechanics play out.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@SnowxElf: Tenebrae overpowers Outlander, Revan, Vaylin, Arcann, Thexan, Senya, the Exile, Scourge, Marr, and Shan combined in the link I posted. I’m not following. Do you think that Yoda could duplicate such a feat? He’s never done anything a fraction of a fraction like that. Or, if your gripe is that it’s in Shan’s mindscape, look no further than Vol vs Abeloth to see how mindscape mechanics play out.

Thanks for the reply. @DarthAnt66

First, alot of Yoda's power scaling comes from Sidious and not actually Yoda himself. We know Yoda is comparable to Sidious at least, especially in Sabers.  Sidious was capable of speed blitzing the B-Team who where stated to be among the greatest duelist in the order's history. If the B-Team (without Windu) was replaced with people like Arcann, Revan, and Marr. Do you really think that team would be able to even touch Sidious when an all out Sidious killed the greatest duelist so easily? Yoda for sure has a fraction of Valk's power when he goes all-out. Maybe some of these characters like Outlander, Revan, Vaylin, and Arcann are more powerful than I believe but I have only really seen hype and not been entirely convinced, the Arcann = Yoda notion especially. Vaylin clearly has power to, but seems to not be able to utilize it fully.

Valkorian is getting closer to DE Sidious with every passing day...

*further ahead

Only TOR fans think that. In reality he is still sub Plagueis.

Bigfacts

HellfireUnit wrote:Only TOR fans think that. In reality he is still sub Plagueis.

Based on? Following is the reality:

1. The Old Republic Encyclopedia recognize Battle of Yavin 4 and have retconned Palpatine's hype all the way up to this point in time, and have made the remainder debatable as well. This is IU-DEFINITIVE publication by the end of 2012.
2. Leland Chee have clarified that marketing blurbs are unreliable indicators of strength and/or power levels.
3. Even Darth Plagueis's top end showing of Midichlorian Manipulation is inferior to the act of creating a VOICE in another living being by his own admission in his journal (The Science of Life) and the underlined is independently confirmed to be the most difficult application in the D6-compliant sourcebooks (all of them).

SnowxElf wrote:
First, alot of Yoda's power scaling comes from Sidious and not actually Yoda himself. We know Yoda is comparable to Sidious at least, especially in Sabers.  Sidious was capable of speed blitzing the B-Team who where stated to be among the greatest duelist in the order's history. If the B-Team (without Windu) was replaced with people like Arcann, Revan, and Marr. Do you really think that team would be able to even touch Sidious when an all out Sidious killed the greatest duelist so easily? Yoda for sure has a fraction of Valk's power when he goes all-out. Maybe some of these characters like Outlander, Revan, Vaylin, and Arcann are more powerful than I believe but I have only really seen hype and not been entirely convinced, the Arcann = Yoda notion especially. Vaylin clearly has power to, but seems to not be able to utilize it fully.

See above FIRST.

Now; what makes you assume that the B-Team hold a candle to members of the COALITION in question?

Jedi Master Usma is stated to be among the greatest duelists of the Order but Lord Praven fought and killed her in the course of Sacking of Coruscant. Years later, the legendary Jedi Knight (alias Hero of Tython) fought and defeated Lord Praven on Tatooine. Hero of Tython was FAR more powerful by the time he was recognized as The Outlander. Then came his evolution on Odessen which transformed him into something else entirely - he could now block lightsaber strikes repeatedly and more.

Arcann is born of Valkorion's energies and his abilities are strongly implied to be beyond that of the Jedi and Sith of the time - a time when combat-applicable qualities were in high demand and the respective Orders had peaked in this respect. The Outlander could challenge Arcann only after his evolution on Odessen (now recognized as The Alliance Commander).

Now let us compare Yoda. One way to do this is to measure STRENGTH in terms of coping with expressions of Sith Lightning which is a reliable indicator:

Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.

From (Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide)

Yoda's STRENGTH is apparent from the fact that he can tackle Sith Lightning with raw power:

Yoda is an immensely powerful Jedi who can control blue crackling Force lightning.

From (Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi)

- but this is a challenging task for him:

Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.

Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."

"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered.

"Even you, my old Master!"

More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.

"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.

Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."

From (Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones: Novelization)

Yoda takes time to be settled in his defensive posture. This problem is further apparent when he confronts Palpatine:



Since Yoda takes time to be settled in his defensive posture, Palpatine knocked him out with his initial blast of Sith Lightning but wasted precious time gloating. Yoda will be in heaps of trouble when up against an adversary who is strong enough to capitalize on his glaring shortcoming; Tenebrae can take him out with a substantial blast of power (not an issue for him).

Revan [Reborn] does not share Yoda's problem. He is/was an exception to the norm among the Jedi because of his rather unique ability to draw strength from the Light and the Dark and even both to his benefit:

He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

The aforementioned ability coupled with his incredible battle precognition:

Revan landed on the ground and wheeled around to face the other man. He thrust out with the Force, the impact hitting the soldier square in the chest. Instead of sending him flying, it only staggered him back half a step—this close to the Emperor they were sworn to protect, the guards were able to draw on his power to protect themselves.

Still, the slight stumble gave Revan enough time to draw his lightsaber and go on the offensive. He came in with a high, overhand chop—an obvious feint meant to draw the defenses of his opponent upward, leaving his legs exposed to a quick follow-up strike.

The guard recognized the familiar ploy, countering it by parrying the overhand chop then quickly dropping his blade low to intercept the inevitable slash at his legs. Only Revan didn’t go for his legs. Anticipating that his opponent’s defenses would go low, he kept his blade up high, allowing him to end the battle with a horizontal cut across the man’s suddenly exposed throat.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

- and raw power:

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.

From (Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion)

- enabled him to fight effectively in all manner of environments and posit a significant threat to even vastly superior Force-user(s) which would be a small count anyways:

Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

Darth Nyriss produced a more powerful expression of Sith Lightning than Count Dooku ever did - she would have incinerated both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik for instance. Neither of the latter duo are mooks but accomplished warriors and have defeated other powerful Sith Lords in combative-situations.

Revan [Reborn] could not keep up with a substantial blast of Sith Lightning of Tenebrae [The Sith Emperor] for long however:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

+

The Emperor’s power is too much for Revan. Recognizing that the Emperor is undefeatable, Scourge kills Meetra and betrays Revan.

From (Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion)

But Arcann could as he showed on The Asylum centuries later - he scale from Revan [Reborn] who in turn scale from Yoda in this respect.

So now you have a measure of the Alliance Commander.

Yaddle

TPM Maul

If Force entities and the like are excluded, all I can think of are possibly GM Luke and Sidious.

Only Bedlam's cause One's are curbed and are GM Luke level apart from the Father who is double and then some.

No one else has power levels of 2 planet's from surface to atmosphere (and more) except perhaps Nihilus but his body was destroyed.

Luke Skywalker
Exar Kun 
Darth Sidious 

And then like most entities

Entities
Luke
Sidious (unlikely)
Vol (unlikely)

Vaelias wrote:Luke Skywalker
Exar Kun 
Darth Sidious 

And then like most entities

How could Kun beat him?

KingKopecz wrote:

Vaelias wrote:Luke Skywalker
Exar Kun 
Darth Sidious 

And then like most entities

How could Kun beat him?

Was credited with the ability to exist as a spirit without an anchor, boundless power, Valk has only been seen doing this while operating in places strong with the force every time he is depicted outside of a DS Nexus he is anchored to an individual to retain his form and resist the pull of Chaos. Dromund Kaas, Ziost, Zakuul, Odessen and Yavin IV, all strong Nexi and the only places he has been seen as an ethereal entity without an Anchor, its pretty likely he was only able to do this because of the Nexi

@Vaelias
And Kun has only been a spirit within Yavin IV and the Massassi temples, 2 strong DS nexii.