Who can beat Valkorion?

KingKopecz wrote:@Vaelias
And Kun has only been a spirit within Yavin IV and the Massassi temples, 2 strong DS nexii.

He has been downright credited with the ability to "roam the cosmos" free as a spirit

Vaelias wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:@Vaelias
And Kun has only been a spirit within Yavin IV and the Massassi temples, 2 strong DS nexii.

He has been downright credited with the ability to "roam the cosmos" free as a spirit

And Vitiate's spirit also roamed the cosmos. Even trash tier Sith like Qordis did that so I'm not sure what's so impressive here.

And Vitiate's spirit also roamed the cosmos. Even trash tier Sith like Qordis did that so I'm not sure what's so impressive here.

Yeh but I just explained lol, Tenebrae is only ever seen doing that on strong dark side focal points, Qorids is completely different, Qordis and Kaan were anchored to Ruusan/Though Bomb, they were not DS Nexi themselves anyway unlike Sheev and Kun, so it is very different, the book sorta implies it could have just been all in Banes head tormenting him anyway. Sheev and Kun basically existed as a Dark Nexus free in the Cosmos resisting Chaos

Vaelias wrote:

And Vitiate's spirit also roamed the cosmos. Even trash tier Sith like Qordis did that so I'm not sure what's so impressive here.

Yeh but I just explained lol, Tenebrae is only ever seen doing that on strong dark side focal points,

He's roaming the cosmos which is the exact thing you're praising Kun for doing. I don't see why you think they're very different.

Qorids is completely different, Qordis and Kaan were anchored to Ruusan/Though Bomb,

They weren't anchored to the thought bomb as they traveled from Ruusan to Dxun. Qordis in particular definitely wouldn't have been anchored by it as he wasn't even killed by it.

they were not DS Nexi themselves anyway unlike Sheev and Kun, so it is very different, the book sorta implies it could have just been all in Banes head tormenting him anyway. Sheev and Kun basically existed as a Dark Nexus free in the Cosmos resisting Chaos 

An OOU source confirms Kaan was a force spirit and there's no reason to believe Qordis wasn't one either.

Citation for Kun being a DS nexus.

@KingKopecz

He's roaming the cosmos which is the exact thing you're praising Kun for doing. I don't see why you think they're very different.

Because Kun is quite simply credited with the ability to do it, that would mean everywhere and not just a DS nexus, Tenebrae on the other hand has not been seen as a corporeal spirit outside of a dark side nexus whenever he is outside of a DS nexus he has bound his spirit to an individual and not is not an independent DS Nexus, without his DS amp he has to have an anchor like most people, else he would be sucked to Chaos, so there are circumstances surrounding Tenebrae's use of this feat, Kun's accolade however has no circumstances he is straight up credited with the ability to do what only Sidious has done.

An OOU source confirms Kaan was a force spirit and there's no reason to believe Qordis wasn't one either.

Qordis was indeed a spirit too

They are specifically noted to only have returned to haunt Bane, looks pretty likely they reached out to tether their spirits temporarily to Bane, hence why their spirits were not consumed by the thought bomb as they should have been.

Citation for Kun being a DS nexus.

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Vaelias wrote:
Was credited with the ability to exist as a spirit without an anchor, boundless power, Valk has only been seen doing this while operating in places strong with the force every time he is depicted outside of a DS Nexus he is anchored to an individual to retain his form and resist the pull of Chaos. Dromund Kaas, Ziost, Zakuul, Odessen and Yavin IV, all strong Nexi and the only places he has been seen as an ethereal entity without an Anchor, its pretty likely he was only able to do this because of the Nexi

1. Being able to exist as a spirit without an anchor does not suggest boundless power. Darth Marr comes to mind; his anchor is not established in the LORE.

There are different ways to overcome a dark side spirit. Following panel is instructive in this regard:

From Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

2. Exar Kun (spirit of pure darkness) is documented in SWTOR sources:

But Exar Kun had sensed the approach of the Republic forces and laid preparations. Summoning his loyal Massassi warriors, he performed a dreadful ritual that drained them of their life essence. Exar Kun became a spirit of pure darkness.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex entry: Galactic History 62: The Great Sith War Ends)

However, Tenebrae surpassed all versions of the Exar Kun:

----- PRIMARY POINTERS -----

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side. Jedi Master Tol Braga’s strike team was not the first group to succumb to the Sith leader’s oppressive influence. Hundreds of years ago, the Jedi Revan and Malak discovered Dromund Kaas and confronted the Emperor. They fell to the dark side and returned to Republic space as Sith Lords. Since then, dozens more Jedi have followed the same path into evil.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

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He was a living embodiment of the dark side of the Force who delighted in destroying the minds and spirits of those Jedi who came too close to him.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

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The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

That is counting The Sith Emperor aspect of Tenebrae as of the Great Galactic War. The ENTITY as a whole was stronger with wider reach and influence.

Therefore, Tenebrae >>> Exar Kun (spirit of pure darkness)

----- SECONDARY POINTERS -----

3. Given the sheer amount of time Tenebrae invested in advancing his grasp of the dark side and ways to cheat death:

Over the centuries of the Empire's exile, the Emperor continued to develop his power base and guard and unseen threats. In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister and uncharted depths of the dark side. The devastating cost of his actions would remain a mystery in years to come.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

- one may never know the kind of SURPRISES he was packing up his sleeve.

There are numerous Force powers of Tenebrae that are not shown in cutscenes and/or lacking explanation in the LORE. Remember the Dark Council led by Darth Lokess which attempted to assassinate The Sith Emperor (Tenebrae in his original immortalized body)? It got one-shotted by a mysterious application. Given the odds, this is among the greatest display of offensive applications in the mythos.

Also check the Echoes of Oblivion footage that I have posted in this thread. You will notice a large variety of Force powers that Tenebrae demonstrated in his battles with the Strike Team; some of these applications are not something you see everyday (or on a regular basis).

Tenebrae is also hardcoded to be capable of unleashing Force blasts with bear hands and his application would be Far more destructive and effective in comparison to what the players get.

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/abl/force-blast-8

"A charged up powerful attack that utterly annihilates anything it touches." (effective up to 1000 meters)

vs.

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/abl/force-blast-11

"Call on Valkorion's power to deliver a massive blast of Force energy." (effective up to 30 meters)

4. The planets you mentioned - not all of them are strong in the Dark Side in particular. Zakuul and Odessen - each is/was strong in the Force by and large (BALANCED), and not exactly strong in the dark side of the Force akin to Dromund Kaas, Ziost and Yavin 4 respectively. Zakuul and Odessen will not favor alignments but strength on merit.

When the Sith Emperor VOICE of Tenebrae was struck down on Dromund Kaas, it produced a spiritual manifestation which managed to:

4.1. breach defenses of the Dark Temple (a structure that was literally designed to trap dark side spirits inside):

Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives. The temple's twisted, grotesque architecture was specifically designed to focus and contain such corrupt darkness.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

4.2. could hop across worlds at will after regaining some of its lost strength:

"He did not assume a physical form or possess a body. And he left as soon as he appeared. None of it makes sense." - Darth Marr

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The man now called Vitiate by those who once served him was not strong enough to usurp all life on Yavin 4 after his reawakening. However, he did gain power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive. Now that he has found in Ziost a suitable target to replenish himself--now that he appears to grow more powerful by the hour--what now?

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Vitiate.")

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"We suffered many casualties upon the Emperor's return, though nothing insurmountable." - Darth Marr

4.3. and even consumed one in the process after regaining much of its lost strength:

Global cataclysms are not unheard of. Whole worlds teeming with life have been rendered lifeless by meteorites, broken apart by instability in the planet's own core--even atomized by the destructive force of a supernova. But the eerie calm of a world stripped of life yet left otherwise intact is another matter altogether. Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Death of a World.")

And that wasn't the end of it. Tenebrae had access to sufficient FUEL to execute his galactic-consuming endgoal after consuming Ziost but he changed his mind.

Now do you have examples of a dark side spirit matching aforementioned feats/showings from among the Sith Lords? Even Palpatine could not do much as a dark side spirit.

The ability to transcend death is not exclusive to Jedi: Emperor Palpatine and the ancient Sith Lords Marka Ragnos managed to preserve their psyches after their deaths, but it seems their spiritual forms were restricted by certain boundaries and limitations. Palpatine's spirit required cloned bodies to manifest his powers; Marka Ragnos's and Exar Kun's spirits were essentially trapped within Sith-engineered temples for thousands of years.

From (Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force)

5. Tenebrae was manifesting in so many individuals by the time of the Great Galactic War that it is difficult to establish what this ENTITY could do outside physical bodies. It is however hinted in one of the conversations that he is capable of resisting pull of the VOID and manipulating the external environment outside physical bodies for indefinite period:

"Our flesh is not who we are. Voices... Hands... Children... I no longer require those crude vessels. At long last I am truly free." - Tenebrae [Valkorion]

His demonstrations on Yavin 4 and Ziost are sufficient indicators in hindsight. However, these exploits also damaged his reputation and he alienated the Sith in the process. He felt that his goals were better served by luring and infiltrating the Outlander and use this man to restore his image and reputation as savior of the galaxy. However, this did not pan out as intended.

Vaelias wrote: @KingKopecz

He's roaming the cosmos which is the exact thing you're praising Kun for doing. I don't see why you think they're very different.

Because Kun is quite simply credited with the ability to do it, that would mean everywhere and not just a DS nexus, Tenebrae on the other hand has not been seen as a corporeal spirit outside of a dark side nexus whenever he is outside of a DS nexus he has bound his spirit to an individual and not is not an independent DS Nexus, without his DS amp he has to have an anchor like most people, else he would be sucked to Chaos, so there are circumstances surrounding Tenebrae's use of this feat, Kun's accolade however has no circumstances he is straight up credited with the ability to do what only Sidious has done.

An OOU source confirms Kaan was a force spirit and there's no reason to believe Qordis wasn't one either.

Qordis was indeed a spirit too

They are specifically noted to only have returned to haunt Bane, looks pretty likely they reached out to tether their spirits temporarily to Bane, hence why their spirits were not consumed by the thought bomb as they should have been.

Citation for Kun being a DS nexus.

Specters of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

What? If Vitiate has travelled through the cosmos as a spirit then that alone implies he's been off nexus. He doesn't need one to anchor himself.

1. Nihilus
2. Kun
3. Palpatine

Sheev
Luke
Anakin
Plagueis
Yoda

Lord Hoth

Darth Sidious and Count Dooku

Darth Sidious is the culmination of war, all evil deeds from the beginning of time itself. He is the Father of Shadows. War serves only the Father of Shadows and his servants, and conflict from time's beginning has empowered Darth Sidious, he is the true, ancient evil, he is no minion.

-Supernatural Encounters in the Star Wars Universe wrote:Even the famous Cody Sunn-Childe, who knew violence all too well, said that “War is the most fervent expression of the Father of Shadows, for it serves nought but him and those who serve him.”

-The Clone Wars - Voices wrote:(PANTING)
(GROANING AND GRUNTING)

QUI-GON:
Yoda, come back to us. Yoda.

YODA:
Such darkness. Such evil. When will this happen?

QUI-GON:
It is happening right now. It has always been happening. With each day the Clone War wages, evil is growing in its power. What you felt in the cave is merely a portion of what
the dark side now holds.

YODA:
Such power. Any hope that the Jedi can prevail, is there?

QUI-GON:
There is always hope, my friend. Though it often comes in forms not looked for.

-Sacrifice Episode Guide wrote:After many grueling trials, Yoda next travels to the ancient Sith home world of Moraband, where he must face an ancient evil determined to rule the galaxy.

-The Clone Wars, Sacrifice wrote:Force Priestesses: "All your trials you have faced have been our doing. And you have passed them well. But inside, there is a place where we have no control, for it is a place of absolute darkness."

Yoda: "What happened here?"

Force Priestesses: "It is the chamber where the Sith would sacrifice Jedi. The Sith of your time will find you there, and you will find them."

Darth Sidious is the "great unbalance" in the eyes of timeless beings that keep an eye on every Force User in the universe. Darth Sidous and Count Dooku both wield the full power of this unbalance as of Revenge of the Sith.

-Force Priestesses, Destiny wrote:"His destiny is already set, it is not for us to decide."

"But why him?"

"He is to teach one who is to save the universe from the great unbalance. For this, the great gift, will be his."

-Force Priestess, Destiny wrote:"We watch and study all who are strong with the force in the universe."

-The Clone Wars - Voices wrote:Qui-Gon: "I am a manifestation of the Force, a force that consists of two parts. Living beings generate the living Force, which in turn powers the wellspring that is the cosmic Force."

Yoda: "Show yourself, can you?"

Qui-Gon: "I cannot, my training was incomplete. All energy from the living Force, from all things that have ever lived, feeds into the cosmic Force, binding everything, and communicating to us through the midichlorians. Because of this, I can speak to you now."

Yoda: "See the future, you can!"

Qui-Gon: "I exist where there is no future, or past."  

-Star Wars: The Clone Wars Press Kit wrote:After pursuing extensive Force training at the hands of his merciless master, the innately evil Darth Sidious, Dooku wields the full power of the Force’s dark side.

-Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith wrote:That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper to him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—

-Star Wars - Revenge of the Sith wrote:When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker’s gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

Ant once asked the rhetorical question of "what would George think of past Sith being above Modern Sith" or something to that effect. I believe the above tells a fairly clear story, but if not, here's a couple more fun things for you guys. Note that mysteries and challenges are separated, and challenges are plural, so it's not just the Droid Army, it's the Droid Army and "the top bad guy" at the very least.


-John Williams AOTC Official Soundtrack

-George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Alternative Commentary with Archival Interviews from Cast and Crew, Referring to Dooku vs Yoda wrote:”It’s an interesting scene because I had to create a situation where all of the Jedi lose, and the Sith gets away, to fight another day, because this is a continuing series, afterall, um so, it’s a hard kind of ending to have everybody lose, and still hopefully have a satisfying ending to the movie, and the real issue is that the Sith Lord gets away in the end, and our guys are completely destroyed. But it does make the bad guys very formidable, it doesn’t have the normal ending. We do kill the one bad guy, which is our friend Jango Fett, so there is that kind of comeuppance in the end for the bad guys, but the really top bad guy gets away, just as Darth Vader did in Episode 4.”

Sidious, GM Luke, Krayt, and maybe Caedus