Darth Nihilus vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

It can be extended, as you so helpfully pointed out, to Kenobi three years after TPM. And that's just the fraction of Adas' power the holocron is imbued with. Nevermind King Adas at full power. And you can see where I'm going with this.

It doesn't look good for HU's appeals to lowballing Nihilus via the ancient Sith.

Even if you were to lowball Nihilus because of his apparent inferiority to Vitiate as of SWTOR via a single statement, his very nature makes it so power is irrelevant in a contest with him. All eventually succumb to both his passive and active drain and no known technique exists to significantly resist it let alone stave off its effects entirely. You could be a league above him in raw power and the instant you are close by he is already sapping your force reserves and life to grant him power that will gradually overcome yours as the fight continues. No contest here, even if by some margin you might hold a stance that Nihilus cannot BFR Kenobi after yanking a fleet of ships including a 1200 meter vessel and several 600 meter interdictor cruisers to escape velocity outside of a gravity well so strong that it rips apart organisms on the molecular level and may as well be compared to a neutron star based on what the Mass Shadow superweapon was capable of upon activation. It's absolutely ludicrous that Obi-Wan could prevent himself being made a toy by weakened Nihilus LET ALONE the wound at the height of his power.

Unending Void wrote:@lotl

He has "never" and I'll emphasize, "never" even tk'ed Kenobi without heavy circumstances favouring him, in any scenario. The notion of tk domination is absolutely laughable, since force users don't have active cocoons on them at all. They have to be caught off guard in order to be tk'ed.

This blog should explain it.
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t55-force-barriers-explained#676


Kenobi meanwhile, has tk'ed both Maul and Savage combined, without any circumstances favouring him.

And no. Force augmentation is the biggest factor in lightsaber battles. This has been consistently emphasized in the lore. Yoda himself has said that the force is "infinitely better than technique" and raw technical skill becomes redundant when you come to opponents of even trainee Bane's level. And yeah, we are debating legends here. We generally don't debate canon unless explicitly specified or we are in the canon threads. Also, no idea what you are going on about with TCW. Dark Rendezvous is not a part of TCW at all here. Please acquaint yourself with the source material properly before commenting.

The Pillar showing has been vetted by "3" separate parties, so unless you think they are all lying or hallucinating, it stands. We also know how high they are, because they are said to "touch the sky". Pretty sure a 50 m construction or a height along those lines, set against mountains as a contrast will not be described as "touching the sky". It has to be monstrously high.

Why is there an excuse being made for Obi-Wan in that he is only ever TK dominated or has his force wall broken when he is caught off guard, despite it happening several times while he is in the middle of active combat? The only time I can agree he was caught off guard is when Maul force gripped him while he was turned the other way. According to the blog, I see no reason why Kenobi wouldn't put up an active 'greater' force shield to defend against Dooku's attack, which would ultimately have failed him due to the power disparity. As for Maul, the only circumstance against Kenobi in the comic is that he had not yet reached the mindset necessary to take on Maul, who is also not at the height of his force abilities, rendering this essentially meaningless.

Kenobi has not TK'd Maul and Savage beyond mere force pushes, which anyone can perform, given even Ahsoka can effect Vader with force pushes despite being less powerful than him.

Raw technical skill is definitely important, especially with characters like Count Dooku where he emphasises such a thing nearly over everything else. Sure it is his force augmentation keeping him in shape and allowing him to fight as if he were in his physical prime but he emphasises skill, finess over all else and he is considered one of the top swordsman in the Order, in the prequel saga and in SW in general. If skill and swordplay becomes absolutely redundant in the face of force augmentation and precognition then why are characters like General Grievous such a threat to even the likes of top tier Jedi to the point where he can stalemate LoE Mace while hindered and nearly eviscerate ROTS Kenobi's Soresu defenses? These characters are well beyond even Bane at dueling The only time I would agree with your notion is in the event of a Tier 9 taking on another Tier 9 where their skill has essentially maxed out and power in the force along with external, environmental and stylistic factors being more significant as opposed to pure skill. For everyone else, this is false.

I am acquainted with the source material. What I am saying is, unless you are someone who considers TCW as a part of the Legends continuity despite numerous contradictions and differences in the continuity with Legends pre-2008 and Disney Canon, Dark Rendezvous's sourcing about Jar'Kai inhibiting the user's ability to withstand force attacks would not apply to Kenobi in his fight on Oba Diah. Even if it does, it doesn't matter because he has been force dominated while using a single blade.

Fair enough, but even massive buildings are labelled skyscrapers yet nowhere near the level of touching the sky. It only seems that way to onlookers, which would likely be the case for the 3 parties as well. Even then his feat is a joke compared to what Nihilus has pulled off with the force.

Because that's how it works lmao. There is no "breaking of active barrier" in the PT era, and active barriers are explicitly shown through gestures or stated. Every other case, it is the passive barrier being broken. I can list several instances where the same combatants, in the same fight, have managed to push each other when no gesture is involved, and have had their attempts blocked when the opponent gestures. This is not TOR. A member of the story group has confirmed that the intentions of Lucas when making the movies and by extension the shows is that force users are caught off guard to be telekinetically pushed, not that their force barriers are broken. This is the template followed for all the PT era material( even in Legends in OCW, Mace gets sent flying like a ragdoll when he doesn't gesture, and minutes later, gestures and blocks the wave) since they are based on the books and movies in that regard.

Maul being pre-prime doesn't matter lmfao. He wasn't able to tk Kenobi in their solo battle in S5 despite that lasting for more than a minute. If Maul truly was more powerful, he should have been able to do so, but he didn't. The only explanation is that Kenobi's hindrance is much more of a factor than Maul being pre-prime. Which also fits with the lore. Revived S4 Maul is stated to be as strong as TPM Maul, who was stalemated by a hindered Kenobi in a telekinetic contest. Do you really think Kenobi's growth of 12 years will not put him much more powerful than TPM Maul?

Sorry but this just seems like cherry picking to suit your agenda. You won't acknowledge that he battered through both Maul and Savage's force barriers in the middle of combat( using your logic and your standards), with no circumstances favouring him, whereas "every single instance" of Maul tk'ing him was with circumstances that heavily favoured him.

Also it is explicitly stated that Dooku caught him off guard in the Junior Novel, it is stated that Dooku abruptly changed tactics and that Obi Wan was not expecting him to battle on two fronts at once when he attacked( a wrong assumption on his part) and that the reason Obi Wan lost was because Dooku was familiar with his style, all of which undeniably say that Dooku caught him off guard and that is the reason he was able to tk him, not this nonsensical notion of "tearing his barrier".

Dooku is an arrogant, delusional Sith Lord who believes that his form is the best among all. Also you are mistaken. Dooku places importance on "elegance", "finesse", and "polish", and "grace", which is not "technical skill". You can be extremely skilled technically and yet not possess the above qualities. He does that because his own form favours that kind of fighting and as established, he is heavily partial to his form. That doesn't mean that the force is not "infinitely better than technique"( Yoda's remarks who is undoubtedly the most technically skilled, most powerful and most experienced Jedi in history and in the best position to make a comment on that) or that even "trainee Bane has moved beyond forms and sequences, using the dark side of the force to power his movements". And the example of General Grevious is exactly why raw technical skill is irrelevant. At the speed and power Grevious operates, nobody other than the PT titans have the power and the force connection to take him on.

Lightsaber combat is correlated with force power and depends "much more"( emphasis on the much) on that than raw technical skill. In fact, it is the simplest and easiest way to measure power. There are really countless examples that prove this point.

Again, that's not how this works. You can't simply compartmentalize sources like that. TCW is T-canon, and approved by Lucas which is what we are going with here. It is about what is approved by Lucas and what is not, not what is canon and what is Legends. The movies and Legends have almost nothing in common, yet we accept movies as a part of Legends. Because that is Lucas approved.

Yeah, except he did it to a great number of pillars, as evidenced by the person looking " up and down the long rows of pillars". Also, any structure touching the sky has to have a decently wide base, else it will simply topple. It is simple physics.

And Obi Wan has also achieved augmented speed faster than "any Jedi or Sith in history".

LadyKulvax wrote:It can be extended, as you so helpfully pointed out, to Kenobi three years after TPM. And that's just the fraction of Adas' power the holocron is imbued with. Nevermind King Adas at full power. And you can see where I'm going with this.

It doesn't look good for HU's appeals to lowballing Nihilus via the ancient Sith.

What is wrong with you? I am saying it cannot be extended, because Kenobi brushes off the effects of the holocron, and even in TPM there is a very strong case to be made for Kenobi being more powerful than Jinn or at least on par with him then. And that was Jinn 8 years before TPM.

Nice to see LOTL cracking down on anti-Kenobi arguments. Missed watching him dump walls of text on users.

Unending Void wrote:Even if you were to lowball Nihilus because of his apparent inferiority to Vitiate as of SWTOR via a single statement, his very nature makes it so power is irrelevant in a contest with him. All eventually succumb to both his passive and active drain and no known technique exists to significantly resist it let alone stave off its effects entirely. You could be a league above him in raw power and the instant you are close by he is already sapping your force reserves and life to grant him power that will gradually overcome yours as the fight continues. No contest here, even if by some margin you might hold a stance that Nihilus cannot BFR Kenobi after yanking a fleet of ships including a 1200 meter vessel and several 600 meter interdictor cruisers to escape velocity outside of a gravity well so strong that it rips apart organisms on the molecular level and may as well be compared to a neutron star based on what the Mass Shadow superweapon was capable of upon activation. It's absolutely ludicrous that Obi-Wan could prevent himself being made a toy by weakened Nihilus LET ALONE the wound at the height of his power.

Kenobi has the scaling of being somewhat close to peak Mace Windu in power. In light of that, your statements above really seem less like arguments and more like posturing to prove a point.

LOTL ragdolling

Can Nihilus even beat TPM Kenobi?

LOTL wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:It can be extended, as you so helpfully pointed out, to Kenobi three years after TPM. And that's just the fraction of Adas' power the holocron is imbued with. Nevermind King Adas at full power. And you can see where I'm going with this.

It doesn't look good for HU's appeals to lowballing Nihilus via the ancient Sith.

What is wrong with you? I am saying it cannot be extended, because Kenobi brushes off the effects of the holocron, and even in TPM there is a very strong case to be made for Kenobi being more powerful than Jinn or at least on par with him then. And that was Jinn 8 years before TPM.

Jinn is post-prime as of TPM per the Databank. The Jinn that Adas' holocron basically wrecks is far closer to his prime:

He wears his long hair tied back so as not to obstruct his peripheral vision. Although a little past his prime, he remains a powerful warrior and a very active Jedi Knight.

Link: https://web.archive.org/web/20000815063241/http://www.starwars.com/characters/qui_gon/

Per Book of Sith, a holocron only contains a fraction of the power of its creator:



According to the spirit of Ajunta Pall, they were outright more powerful than those before them:

Spirit of Ajunta Pall, Knights of the Old Republic wrote:We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we... had more power than those before us.

The Jedi Exiles are themselves surpassed by 2,000 years of breeding greater raw power in the Force generationally until the likes of Marka Ragnos, Ludo Kressh and Naga Sadow:



That Kenobi as of three years after TPM can shrug off the effects of a fraction of Adas' passive power presence doesn't negate the entirety of the rest of the scaling.

Like-wise, we have Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh being far beyond Darth Tenebrous and Darth Plagueis(67BBY) as seen in Ant's blog. If you disagree, feel free to contend it there.

Simply put, lowballing Nihilus by saying he has a malleable 'some of the ancient Sith' cap. (By all indications within the game and prima guide he's about on par with Ludo Kressh.) Doesn't do anything for Obi-Wan Kenobi here. Which was my point with HU in the first place.

LadyKulvax wrote:The Ancient Sith. Who are not sub-Malak, Revan or any version of Vitiate that isn't SWTOR.

Curious: Knowing you reject both The Malak Quote and Vitiate's half-a-dozen supremacy quotes, why do you think they are bound below SWTOR Vitiate?

I don't reject Vitiate's supremacy quotes, they all apply by SWTOR if you take them as accurate, which Boyd appears to support. Hence my point.

LadyKulvax wrote:I don't reject Vitiate's supremacy quotes, they all apply by SWTOR if you take them as accurate, which Boyd appears to support. Hence my point.

You claim Vitiate's are binding circa SWTOR, but then claim Sidious' aren't circa RotS. What's the difference between Vitiate's supremacy quotes and Sheev's when it comes to their ability to bind those who came before?

The difference is they don't help the characters they like.

I have yet to see a reason as to why Obi Wan doesn't get stomped by Nihilus's drain. I have yet to also see anything that Obi Wan has done that puts him on par with Nihilus's TK feat and Nihilus destroying (not only draining) an entire planet.

Also Nihilus does not scale below the Ancient Sith. He only scales below the Ancient Sith which were meant to be in KOTOR 3 but were never made.

KingofBlades wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:I don't reject Vitiate's supremacy quotes, they all apply by SWTOR if you take them as accurate, which Boyd appears to support. Hence my point.

You claim Vitiate's are binding circa SWTOR, but then claim Sidious' aren't circa RotS. What's the difference between Vitiate's supremacy quotes and Sheev's when it comes to their ability to bind those who came before?

Because Sheev's quotes are specifically over-all most powerful Sith ever quotes which is what Leland Chee says they don't take as 'absolutes'. There's a massive difference in era-bound quotes and blanket mythos statement.

Darth Nihilus wrote:I have yet to see a reason as to why Obi Wan doesn't get stomped by Nihilus's drain.

Because there is no reason.

LadyKulvax wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:I don't reject Vitiate's supremacy quotes, they all apply by SWTOR if you take them as accurate, which Boyd appears to support. Hence my point.

You claim Vitiate's are binding circa SWTOR, but then claim Sidious' aren't circa RotS. What's the difference between Vitiate's supremacy quotes and Sheev's when it comes to their ability to bind those who came before?

Because Sheev's quotes are specifically over-all most powerful Sith ever quotes which is what Leland Chee says they don't take as 'absolutes'. There's a massive difference in era-bound quotes and blanket mythos statement.

??? Sheev's quotes circa RotS aren't blanket mythos statements, they aren't binding characters for all of time, past, present, and future. They're placing a character, in this case Sidious, above all prior sith at a particular point in time. Which is functionally identical to Vitiate's quotes. The only difference between the two is that Sidious' quotes bind a larger portion of time, which is natural considering Sidious lived after Vitiate. 

Also I find the appeal to Chee regarding which quotes are binding and what aren't strange to say the least. Chee thinks everything is subjective, obviously he's not going to say a quote binds characters. He'd do the same for any supremacy quote, be they regarding Sidious, Yoda, Vitiate, Kun, or any other character who has a supremacy quote. What you're doing is essentially synonymous with citing an occasion where Azronger said X author quote is invalid to win a debate where author quotes have value. Yes...Az did say X quote is invalid, but you're neglecting to mention that Az thinks all author quotes are invalid. In a debate where author quotes have the capacity to be valid, Az's statement would not useful in determining which author quotes should or shouldn't be considered valid. The situation is the same here; yes Chee thinks Sidious' supremacy quotes aren't binding, but Chee thinks this about all sources. When operating under a methodology where quotes have the capability to be binding, Chee's insight has no value.

Chee didn't attack all supremacy quotes. He specifically tackled the idea of a single Sith being the absolute canon most powerful Sith of all time due to quotes. He isn't dismissing the quotes themselves as having no value, he's saying that there's no definitive singular most powerful Sith ever simply because of them. That'd bind the entire mythos, regardless of who.

Given he personally fact-checked TCSWE, he's obviously not opposed to the idea of individual Sith being the best in their own era because quotes like that exist in it. He's obviously not opposed to certain other things of that nature too, given that Chee himself outright says the Father is the most powerful outright and beyond doubt. There's a certain malleable element to what he says and he's careful about how he says it.

So, no.

[size=37]Chee didn't attack all supremacy quotes. He specifically tackled the idea of a single Sith being the absolute canon most powerful Sith of all time due to quotes. He isn't dismissing the quotes themselves as having no value, he's saying that there's no definitive singular most powerful Sith ever simply because of them. That'd bind the entire mythos, regardless of who.[/size]

I've already mentioned this but it seems I'll have to do it again; Sidious' supremacy quotes don't bind the entire mythos. They bind everything up to and including RotS. Everything after RotS isn't bound. This is functionally identical to Vitiate's quotes, they bind everything up to and including at least Vanilla SWTOR. If Chee is attacking quotes that function like these at a conceptual level like you say, then Vitiate's quotes are no less invalid than Sidious'.

I literally already addressed this, but okay. No one is canonically the most powerful Sith. Sidious' quotes are exactly what Leland Chee was replying to when he made the statement. This is clearly not a blanket rule as we have Chee fact-checking TCSWE personally and he himself made such a statement about the Father, he's not totally beyond statements of that nature. He was specifically saying that they in continuity don't take the Sheev quotes as an 'absolute'. He's not making a blanket policy he's directly negating the idea that Sheev's quotes specifically can be used as hard and fast absolutes.

Yeah, looking at their quotes, they're pretty much the same (most powerful who has ever existed) except Sidious's covers a greater part of history.

Sidious's supremacy seems intact to me.

LadyKulvax wrote:I literally already addressed this, but okay. No one is canonically the most powerful Sith. Sidious' quotes are exactly what Leland Chee was replying to when he made the statement. This is clearly not a blanket rule as we have Chee fact-checking TCSWE personally and he himself made such a statement about the Father, he's not totally beyond statements of that nature. He was specifically saying that they in continuity don't take the Sheev quotes as an 'absolute'. He's not making a blanket policy he's directly negating the idea that Sheev's quotes specifically can be used as hard and fast absolutes.

So if you think "no one is canonically the most powerful sith" then obviously you think Vitiate's supremacy quotes aren't absolute either. So why are you arbitrarily buying the Vitiate quotes but not Sidious'?

Obi may have moved faster than any Jedi/Sith in history, but that is not something he is normally capable of doing, obviously. His fight with Vader has many factors that contribute to him be able to do so; really, Obi was only able to keep up with Anakin for the sake of the plot/story, that's really the only reason. Obi does have some great TK feats but he has not shown to be as good as a telekinetic as others (Maul, Obi, and Anakin). Whenever Obi has a high showing the Obi brigade is trying to argue that power is normally or partially within his capabilities or accessibility. Whenever something bad happens to Obi they are saying "no that had circumstances" which is sometimes true but in general they are ignoring the broader picture.

He is normally capable of doing it, yeah. The only caveat is that that is not combat applicable, but that doesn't mean you can't use it as a general comparison point. And if the battle with Vader was 100% circumstance free then no one would even bother with these Maul arguments, they would simply put him on par with Palpatine and be done. Obviously even his hardcore supporters are not on board with it.

No one is ignoring the broader picture. The simple thing is that it has been consistently emphasized that force defense is not done without gestures in visual material, and that there are countless instances where gesturing has successfully defended the same person against the same opponent, and not gesturing has had them getting tk'ed. There is such a thing as active and passive force defense, and that active defense is generally not counted unless explicitly stated, due to how strong it generally is. The creators are also in agreement with that, so there is no "broader picture", just a set of circumstances where it is easy to capitalize on vulnerabilities which is how almost every tk attack happens. And as with people generally, they ignore the counter-examples.

"He is normally capable of doing it, yeah. The only caveat is that it is not combat applicable".

Not sure what you mean here.

"The simple thing is that it has been consistently emphasized that force defense is not done without gestures in visual material, and that there are countless instances where gesturing has successfully defended the same person against the same opponent, and not gesturing has had them getting tk'ed. There is such a thing as active and passive force defense, and that active defense is generally not counted unless explicitly stated, due to how strong it generally is. The creators are also in agreement with that, so there is no "broader picture", just a set of circumstances where it is easy to capitalize on vulnerabilities which is how almost every tk attack happens. And as with people generally, they ignore the counter-examples."

Okay. But it's pretty clear that Obi was able to deal with Anakin's Tk because Obi was already knowing Anakin move for move before he attacked. This is what allowed him to fight Anakin. If we were to take away any familiarity with each others styles in the fight. It's pretty clear that Obi would of been tooled by Anakin's Tk because many other less powerful force users have exploited Obi's lapses in his TK defense. That's the point here.