Darth Nihilus vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

Unending Void wrote:

LOTL wrote:Maul didn't tk Kenobi by "battering defense" lmao. He did it by exploiting lapses in his guard when he was vulnerable.

And the above comic is when Obi Wan is not in the optimal mental state to take Maul on. The director of TCW has stated that only in S5 which happens months after that comic is Kenobi mentally ready to take Maul on

And despite being mentally ready to take Maul on, he still got ragdolled by him twice even though he entered a near-perfect mental state after Adi Gallia's death at the hands of Savage Opress. This is still Maul before he grows in power later in the Clone Wars. While ROTS Kenobi might be able to resist Maul, I highly doubt that's the case for Dooku. It doesn't really matter where you hold Nihilus and Dooku in terms of their force abilities compared against one another because Nihilus is vastly above Maul in force affinity and raw power that Kenobi will be like a toy for him.

He had to face another powerful force user in Savage Opress and had his back turned when he got "ragdolled". The second time was just a force push. He has force pushed both Maul and Savage but nobody is claiming that he is more powerful than them combined.

And there is also Jar'Kai which makes force users more vulnerable to force attacks, which Kenobi was using there.

Unending Void wrote:

LOTL wrote:Maul didn't tk Kenobi by "battering defense" lmao. He did it by exploiting lapses in his guard when he was vulnerable.

And the above comic is when Obi Wan is not in the optimal mental state to take Maul on. The director of TCW has stated that only in S5 which happens months after that comic is Kenobi mentally ready to take Maul on

And despite being mentally ready to take Maul on, he still got ragdolled by him twice even though he entered a near-perfect mental state after Adi Gallia's death at the hands of Savage Opress. This is still Maul before he grows in power later in the Clone Wars. While ROTS Kenobi might be able to resist Maul, I highly doubt that's the case for Dooku. It doesn't really matter where you hold Nihilus and Dooku in terms of their force abilities compared against one another because Nihilus is vastly above Maul in force affinity and raw power that Kenobi will be like a toy for him.

How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

@lotl

He had to face another powerful force user in Savage Opress and had his back turned when he got "ragdolled". The second time was just a force push. He has force pushed both Maul and Savage but nobody is claiming that he is more powerful than them combined.

I'll give you the first one, that's unfavorable for Kenobi. As for the second, they have all traded minor force attacks against one another, especially force pushes but the force push in question here was a very powerful one and Kenobi was completely floored by it and sent to the other side of the tunnel, where some of the rubble also collapsed because of said force attack. Anyway all of Maul's force feats against Kenobi all come from him being pre-prime anyway and he is still a vastly inferior force user as compared to Nihilus. None of his feats even come close. Kenobi is not above either Maul or Savage in the force, that's quite obvious. However, when performing like he did in the 2v1, he is certainly superior to either of them individually as a duelist, but that's besides the point.

And there is also Jar'Kai which makes force users more vulnerable to force attacks, which Kenobi was using there.

Source?

@kingofblades

How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

Iirc, MFV was in a terrible mental state, hadn't eaten or slept in days etc. Don't quote me on that though because there might've been something ludicrous suggesting he somehow gained power despite all that anyway. Besides that, Kenobi has knocked down trees, Nihilus has ripped out a 1200 meter centurion battlecruiser out of a cataclysmic gravity well and ravaged the surface of a planet way before the height of his power. Hm, yeah, tough call as to why Nihilus ragdolls...

Unending Void wrote:@lotl

He had to face another powerful force user in Savage Opress and had his back turned when he got "ragdolled". The second time was just a force push. He has force pushed both Maul and Savage but nobody is claiming that he is more powerful than them combined.

I'll give you the first one, that's unfavorable for Kenobi. As for the second, they have all traded minor force attacks against one another, especially force pushes but the force push in question here was a very powerful one and Kenobi was completely floored by it and sent to the other side of the tunnel, where some of the rubble also collapsed because of said force attack. Anyway all of Maul's force feats against Kenobi all come from him being pre-prime anyway and he is still a vastly inferior force user as compared to Nihilus. None of his feats even come close. Kenobi is not above either Maul or Savage in the force, that's quite obvious. However, when performing like he did in the 2v1, he is certainly superior to either of them individually as a duelist, but that's besides the point.

And there is also Jar'Kai which makes force users more vulnerable to force attacks, which Kenobi was using there.

Source?

@kingofblades

How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

Iirc, MFV was in a terrible mental state, hadn't eaten or slept in days etc. Don't quote me on that though because there might've been something ludicrous suggesting he somehow gained power despite all that anyway. Besides that, Kenobi has knocked down trees, Nihilus has ripped out a 1200 meter centurion battlecruiser out of a cataclysmic gravity well and ravaged the surface of a planet way before the height of his power. Hm, yeah, tough call as to why Nihilus ragdolls...

Maul was also driven by "a surge of animal rage" in that instance due to Kenobi cutting off his brother's arm. He was simply exerting himself more.

And again, it doesn't matter whether it is minor or major. The same logic applies to both. You also have Jar'Kai which leaves force users vulnerable to force attacks( Yoda:Dark Rendezvous).

Also, Kenobi is superior to both of them combined by ROTS, not S5, but he is certainly superior to Maul by S5. Lightsaber dueling is much, much more about force power than it is about skill.

Kenobi has torn down countless pillars that are described as "touching the sky", and with such a level of devastation that onlookers saw a "monstrous cloud of dust" and this was when another pillar range was blocking their view, meaning they saw a monstrous cloud of dust rising above a pillar range "touching the sky".

Kenobi has also achieved an augmented speed quicker than any Jedi or Sith in history.

[size=34]Iirc, MFV was in a terrible mental state, hadn't eaten or slept in days etc. Don't quote me on that though because there might've been something ludicrous suggesting he somehow gained power despite all that anyway. Besides that, Kenobi has knocked down trees, Nihilus has ripped out a 1200 meter centurion battlecruiser out of a cataclysmic gravity well and ravaged the surface of a planet way before the height of his power. Hm, yeah, tough call as to why Nihilus ragdolls...[/size]

RotS Jr Novel wrote:

Still the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava.
And still, neither man could gain an advantage.
But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

As the Clone Wars rage on, Anakin Skywalker becomes seduced by the dark side and betrays his fellow Jedi and all that he once held dear. Obi-Wan Kenobi must now battle his former Padawan, who has become the Jedi’s most formidable threat.

Your suspicions were correct. Sources state Anakin's dark powers added to his abilities, and that the anguish of facing his best friend in combat gave him an advantage. As of their duel, Vader was the most formidable threat. So yeah, he wasn't hindered. Which means I'll reiterate my earlier question; How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

KingofBlades wrote:
How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

Without going into the Anakin vs Obi Wan debate, what makes you think Obi Wan would be able to somehow overcome Nihilus's Force Drain? Unless you can prove that Obi Wan would be able to resist it, then Obi Wan is losing this. There is no evidence to back up the claim that Obi Wan would resist Nihilus's Force Drain other than random speculation by some people whom have not presented any such evidence to this claim and just say 'I doubt it' or 'Not buying it' etc... , which is basically just denial with no evidence or counter-argument. In fact, there is evidence against it with the Dark Reaper itself, which Obi Wan would fail to resist. So if Obi Wan can't resist Nihilus's Drain, what makes you think he wouldn't get stomped?

In my opinion, Nihilus has the potential to defeat Kenobi with force Drain, but in a conventional fight I do not see Nihilus winnig.

Nihilus' variant of drain is stated to be generally indefensible by Kreia, the KOTOR 2 loading screen, and Chronicles of the Old Republic. He's also probably more powerful than Kenobi. I'd likewise need good proof that Kenobi has unique knowledge to counter the drain; otherwise, I don't see how he's winning here.

I also find it ludicrous that the entire Kenobi argument is attempting to crutch on Sheev quotes, which, if the KFV equating him quotes are true. Are outright contradicted. Nor do I see a reason to accept them when even Leland Chee has outright dismissed them as being 'absolute' truths and doesn't apply them to the Holocron.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Nihilus' variant of drain is stated to be generally indefensible by Kreia, the KOTOR 2 loading screen, and Chronicles of the Old Republic. He's also probably more powerful than Kenobi. I'd likewise need good proof that Kenobi has unique knowledge to counter the drain; otherwise, I don't see how he's winning here.

Sorry if I made any confusion. I was meaning that Darth Nihilus' force drain would beat Kenobi (I don't think that anyone is disputing the power of that specific ability of his), but that otherwise I am unsure of if he is at the same fighting level as Kenobi.

@Unending Void: Welcome to the forum.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Nihilus' variant of drain is stated to be generally indefensible by Kreia, the KOTOR 2 loading screen, and Chronicles of the Old Republic. He's also probably more powerful than Kenobi. I'd likewise need good proof that Kenobi has unique knowledge to counter the drain; otherwise, I don't see how he's winning here.

Don't you think Anakin would have shared the secret of countering drain to the Jedi Order at large after he learned it? Seems highly unlikely that the Jedi would just let go of something like that.

Not only is the Dark Reaper drain nothing like the drain rediscovered by the Triumvirate. Anakin's 'defense' was literally to just draw on the Force around him in an extremely potent way to delay the Reaper's effects.

You realise your argument also has to mean that in the span of time between the Great Sith War and the Dark Wars, the Jedi Order had to have suddenly forgotten the very same technique that Ulic Qel-Droma showed Anakin and taught to them so they could stop the Dark Reaper. Many of those Jedi being the same Masters we see in the KotOR games.

@ladykulvax

LadyKulvax wrote:Not only is the Dark Reaper drain nothing like the drain rediscovered by the Triumvirate. Anakin's 'defense' was literally to just draw on the Force around him in an extremely potent way to delay the Reaper's effects.

You realise your argument also has to mean that in the span of time between the Great Sith War and the Dark Wars, the Jedi Order had to have suddenly forgotten the very same technique that Ulic Qel-Droma showed Anakin and taught to them so they could stop the Dark Reaper. Many of those Jedi being the same Masters we see in the KotOR games.

Let's not forget that Anakin himself wasn't completely able to resist the Dark Reaper's effects. He could only survive while remaining outside of the main weapon's beam at the centre of the Dark Reaper superweapon, and that's with the added benefit of being in the safety of his TX-130. If he dives into the middle of the Dark Reaper he dies almost instantly, and that superweapon still does not drain on the scale of Nihilus.

@darthant66

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Unending Void: Welcome to the forum.

Thanks

@kingofblades

Your suspicions were correct. Sources state Anakin's dark powers added to his abilities, and that the anguish of facing his best friend in combat gave him an advantage. As of their duel, Vader was the most formidable threat. So yeah, he wasn't hindered. Which means I'll reiterate my earlier question; How is Nihilus, a sith lord, going to ragdoll Kenobi "like a toy" when an equal to the most powerful sith Lord in history is unable to do so.

Pre-ROTS, Darth Maul while pre-prime is able to ragdoll Kenobi on several occasions, despite some having circumstancial context. Obi-Wan reaches close to the perfect mental state in TCW S5 and his highest by ROTS, where he is still ragdolled by Count Dooku. Later, MFV, an empowered Anakin, a supposed 'equal to the most powerful Sith Lord in history' stalemates Obi-Wan in a heated force contest. Ignoring the fact that this already doesn't make any sense unless Kenobi supposedly went from an 8 at the start of ROTS to a 9 by the end of it, which has never ever been stated by any sources or Lucasfilm officials, where his tier has always remained an 8 up until the Mustafar battle and after it concluded. So, without having to reiterate what you have said, does this mean you are arguing for the fact that Obi-Wan Kenobi is an equal to an amped Anakin Skywalker who has given himself to the dark side and therefore also an equal to Darth Sidious by ROTS in terms of force power? Are you also arguing for the fact that Sidious is unable to ragdoll Obi-Wan, then?

DarthAnt66 wrote:Nihilus' variant of drain is stated to be generally indefensible by Kreia, the KOTOR 2 loading screen, and Chronicles of the Old Republic. He's also probably more powerful than Kenobi. I'd likewise need good proof that Kenobi has unique knowledge to counter the drain; otherwise, I don't see how he's winning here.

Just because Kreia cannot defend herself from it, doesn't mean it is indefensible and Avellone supports this further. Also, what is the basis for Nihilus being more powerful than Kenobi? Kenobi being around the guy who is the most powerful foe Jedi ever faced massively scales above Nihilus who is basically below the Ancient Sith and those who scale above them such as Vitiate, Revan and Malak.

Maul was also driven by "a surge of animal rage" in that instance due to Kenobi cutting off his brother's arm. He was simply exerting himself more.

And again, it doesn't matter whether it is minor or major. The same logic applies to both. You also have Jar'Kai which leaves force users vulnerable to force attacks( Yoda:Dark Rendezvous).

Also, Kenobi is superior to both of them combined by ROTS, not S5, but he is certainly superior to Maul by S5. Lightsaber dueling is much, much more about force power than it is about skill.

Kenobi has torn down countless pillars that are described as "touching the sky", and with such a level of devastation that onlookers saw a "monstrous cloud of dust" and this was when another pillar range was blocking their view, meaning they saw a monstrous cloud of dust rising above a pillar range "touching the sky".

Kenobi has also achieved an augmented speed quicker than any Jedi or Sith in history.

It doesn't really matter if Maul was exerting himself more because even when he doesn't he can accomplish similar TK domination on Kenobi, and he is pre-prime while being vastly inferior to Dooku or Nihilus in terms of TK.

Dark Rendezvous is Legends, which means it is essentially meaningless unless you're one of those people who consider TCW a key component of Legends despite the thousands of conntradictions it brings. Even if we take that as a fact, Kenobi only uses Jar'Kai what is essentially once and Maul has already ragdolled him when he is wielding a single lightsaber. Count Dooku also did, so it really doesn't change anything and Obi-Wan has no excuse.

By ROTS the duo of Savage and Maul are likely inferior to Kenobi based off of his ability to barely outduel Grievous and fend off MFV, exploiting his rash behavior and an environmental advantage to win. However Savage and Maul can probably TK dominate him combined. I highly doubt his force defenses raised from being TK dominated by pre-prime Maul a little before ROTS to being able to defend from both him at his prime and his brother at the same time by ROTS.

The only part the force plays in lightsaber dueling is the augmentation, precognition and it being used offensively mid-duel like how one would jab, kick or punch the opponent. In rare cases it can be used like Shatterpoint for Mace Windu but for the most part it's about the stats and skill of the combatants, as it is essentially sci-fi swordplay.

That pillar feat is rather vague and is third party perspective, meaning it may be exaggerated as well, especially the part of them touching the sky. We also don't know how wide or high they are.

Yes, Kenobi has expert speed, reactionary ability, especially in the ROTS novel where he casually defends himself from scores of droids and their blaster fire, also keeping up with and defending himself from a tireless offensive by GG later. This doesn't really help him against Nihilus though.

Kreia outright knows it's indefensible as a fact.

Darth Nihilus kills multiple planets; has killed literally a hundred Jedi including the likes of Vandar, Dorak and Zhar Lestin simultaneously; can literally destroy a station so large it covered 25% of the orbit of Telos and which tanked a 1,200-meter ship crashing into it and the subsequent explosion. That's not including his massively pre-prime feat of telekinetically pulling a fleet of heavy cruisers out of a gravity well and magnetic storms. Which were so strong the engines of said ships didn't have enough power to break free.

The Ancient Sith. Who are not sub-Malak, Revan or any version of Vitiate that isn't SWTOR. The likes of Ludo and Naga are far more powerful than Tenebrous and 67BBY Plagueis. The likes of King Adas could straight up reduce Qui-Gon Jinn to exhaustion with the mere presence of a fraction of his power. Adas is at best as powerful as any one of the Jedi Exiles, who are all 2,000 years of raw power generational growth less powerful than Ludo and Sadow.

I really don't see how any of these pro-Kenobi arguments are meant to work.

Unending Void wrote:

Maul was also driven by "a surge of animal rage" in that instance due to Kenobi cutting off his brother's arm. He was simply exerting himself more.

And again, it doesn't matter whether it is minor or major. The same logic applies to both. You also have Jar'Kai which leaves force users vulnerable to force attacks( Yoda:Dark Rendezvous).

Also, Kenobi is superior to both of them combined by ROTS, not S5, but he is certainly superior to Maul by S5. Lightsaber dueling is much, much more about force power than it is about skill.

Kenobi has torn down countless pillars that are described as "touching the sky", and with such a level of devastation that onlookers saw a "monstrous cloud of dust" and this was when another pillar range was blocking their view, meaning they saw a monstrous cloud of dust rising above a pillar range "touching the sky".

Kenobi has also achieved an augmented speed quicker than any Jedi or Sith in history.

It doesn't really matter if Maul was exerting himself more because even when he doesn't he can accomplish similar TK domination on Kenobi, and he is pre-prime while being vastly inferior to Dooku or Nihilus in terms of TK.

Dark Rendezvous is Legends, which means it is essentially meaningless unless you're one of those people who consider TCW a key component of Legends despite the thousands of conntradictions it brings. Even if we take that as a fact, Kenobi only uses Jar'Kai what is essentially once and Maul has already ragdolled him when he is wielding a single lightsaber. Count Dooku also did, so it really doesn't change anything and Obi-Wan has no excuse.

By ROTS the duo of Savage and Maul are likely inferior to Kenobi based off of his ability to barely outduel Grievous and fend off MFV, exploiting his rash behavior and an environmental advantage to win. However Savage and Maul can probably TK dominate him combined. I highly doubt his force defenses raised from being TK dominated by pre-prime Maul a little before ROTS to being able to defend from both him at his prime and his brother at the same time by ROTS.

The only part the force plays in lightsaber dueling is the augmentation, precognition and it being used offensively mid-duel like how one would jab, kick or punch the opponent. In rare cases it can be used like Shatterpoint for Mace Windu but for the most part it's about the stats and skill of the combatants, as it is essentially sci-fi swordplay.

That pillar feat is rather vague and is third party perspective, meaning it may be exaggerated as well, especially the part of them touching the sky. We also don't know how wide or high they are.

Yes, Kenobi has expert speed, reactionary ability, especially in the ROTS novel where he casually defends himself from scores of droids and their blaster fire, also keeping up with and defending himself from a tireless offensive by GG later. This doesn't really help him against Nihilus though.

He has "never" and I'll emphasize, "never" even tk'ed Kenobi without heavy circumstances favouring him, in any scenario. The notion of tk domination is absolutely laughable, since force users don't have active cocoons on them at all, other than a very weak shield. They have to be caught off guard in order to be tk'ed.

This blog should explain it.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t55-force-barriers-explained#676

Kenobi meanwhile, has tk'ed both Maul and Savage combined, without any circumstances favouring him.

And no. Force augmentation is the biggest factor in lightsaber battles. This has been consistently emphasized in the lore. Yoda himself has said that the force is "infinitely better than technique" and raw technical skill becomes redundant when you come to opponents of even trainee Bane's level. And yeah, we are debating legends here. We generally don't debate canon unless explicitly specified or we are in the canon threads. Also, no idea what you are going on about with TCW. Dark Rendezvous is not a part of TCW at all here. Please acquaint yourself with the source material properly before commenting.

The Pillar showing has been vetted by "3" separate parties, so unless you think they are all lying or hallucinating, it stands. We also know how high they are, because they are said to "touch the sky". Pretty sure a 50 m construction or a height along those lines, set against mountains as a contrast will not be described as "touching the sky". It has to be monstrously high.

Don't see how Adas's effect on Qui Gon has anything to do with Obi Wan, who just 3 years after TPM can simply brush off the effects of the holocron almost completely.

@lotl

He has "never" and I'll emphasize, "never" even tk'ed Kenobi without heavy circumstances favouring him, in any scenario. The notion of tk domination is absolutely laughable, since force users don't have active cocoons on them at all. They have to be caught off guard in order to be tk'ed.

This blog should explain it.
https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t55-force-barriers-explained#676


Kenobi meanwhile, has tk'ed both Maul and Savage combined, without any circumstances favouring him.

And no. Force augmentation is the biggest factor in lightsaber battles. This has been consistently emphasized in the lore. Yoda himself has said that the force is "infinitely better than technique" and raw technical skill becomes redundant when you come to opponents of even trainee Bane's level. And yeah, we are debating legends here. We generally don't debate canon unless explicitly specified or we are in the canon threads. Also, no idea what you are going on about with TCW. Dark Rendezvous is not a part of TCW at all here. Please acquaint yourself with the source material properly before commenting.

The Pillar showing has been vetted by "3" separate parties, so unless you think they are all lying or hallucinating, it stands. We also know how high they are, because they are said to "touch the sky". Pretty sure a 50 m construction or a height along those lines, set against mountains as a contrast will not be described as "touching the sky". It has to be monstrously high.

Why is there an excuse being made for Obi-Wan in that he is only ever TK dominated or has his force wall broken when he is caught off guard, despite it happening several times while he is in the middle of active combat? The only time I can agree he was caught off guard is when Maul force gripped him while he was turned the other way. According to the blog, I see no reason why Kenobi wouldn't put up an active 'greater' force shield to defend against Dooku's attack, which would ultimately have failed him due to the power disparity. As for Maul, the only circumstance against Kenobi in the comic is that he had not yet reached the mindset necessary to take on Maul, who is also not at the height of his force abilities, rendering this essentially meaningless.

Kenobi has not TK'd Maul and Savage beyond mere force pushes, which anyone can perform, given even Ahsoka can effect Vader with force pushes despite being less powerful than him.

Raw technical skill is definitely important, especially with characters like Count Dooku where he emphasises such a thing nearly over everything else. Sure it is his force augmentation keeping him in shape and allowing him to fight as if he were in his physical prime but he emphasises skill, finess over all else and he is considered one of the top swordsman in the Order, in the prequel saga and in SW in general. If skill and swordplay becomes absolutely redundant in the face of force augmentation and precognition then why are characters like General Grievous such a threat to even the likes of top tier Jedi to the point where he can stalemate LoE Mace while hindered and nearly eviscerate ROTS Kenobi's Soresu defenses? These characters are well beyond even Bane at dueling The only time I would agree with your notion is in the event of a Tier 9 taking on another Tier 9 where their skill has essentially maxed out and power in the force along with external, environmental and stylistic factors being more significant as opposed to pure skill. For everyone else, this is false.

I am acquainted with the source material. What I am saying is, unless you are someone who considers TCW as a part of the Legends continuity despite numerous contradictions and differences in the continuity with Legends pre-2008 and Disney Canon, Dark Rendezvous's sourcing about Jar'Kai inhibiting the user's ability to withstand force attacks would not apply to Kenobi in his fight on Oba Diah. Even if it does, it doesn't matter because he has been force dominated while using a single blade.

Fair enough, but even massive buildings are labelled skyscrapers yet nowhere near the level of touching the sky. It only seems that way to onlookers, which would likely be the case for the 3 parties as well. Even then his feat is a joke compared to what Nihilus has pulled off with the force.

Wait, so you think matching a fraction of Adas' power equates to being > Adas? Or that's somehow covering the basically Banite scaling (× 2) that you have from the Exiles to the Golden Age of the Sith?

No, just saying Qui Gon's inability cannot be extended to Obi Wan.