ROTJ Vader vs B team

@SithSauce

>Has to respond to me on ROTJ Luke vs Vader.
>Ignores me and writes out a massive wall of text to Ziggy instead.

Don't tell me you're going to respond, then utterly ignore my post, and then start debating others instead, pls.

SithSauce wrote:@Ziggy Dude why bother making this thread when you clearly have a low opinion on Vader? 

Sport. 

The Empire Strikes Backs fight can't be used to suggest Luke has parity with Vader when Vader isn't even trying his hardest for the majority of the fight.  

To suggest he's trying for a minority of the fight makes for some semblance of parity.  

Luke confronts Vader with the mindset that Vader killed his father. While Vader fights Luke with the intention of not killing him but turn him to the darkside.

And he still failed to capture Luke.  

He won by maiming his son after a seriously lengthy battle... and not before conceding a hit himself.  I imagine a stomp would have been characterised differently, if that was indeed the intention.  Just look at Dooku vs Kenobi in AOTC.  

Therefore he is clearly holding back. This is backed up by John Knoll's statement which suggests Vader wasn't trying hard against Luke.

Knoll story bro

John Knoll is reliable as he was the visual effects supervisor for The Prequel Trilogy and the special editions for the Original Trilogy. So he has worked extremely close with George Lucas. 

Reliable to whom?  To me, he's just one of the many orators passed off as a Word of God by fans who should know better.  

For starters, How do you know Knoll's opinion is the same as Lucas' and not his own thoughts on the material?  The only reason Gillard is taken seriously is because Lucas shared with him a devised list of levels to help him with the choreography.  Knoll, on the other hand, only did special effects for the remastered OT... he wasn't even part of it's conception.  Unlike Gillard, he had nothing to do with the fights themselves, so his opinion is no more official than yours or mine. 

You do realise It is entirely possible for two people to watch, even work on the same material and hold separate opinions of that material.  If hegemonus opinion is so common, why do our own ideas clash?  Where you evidently think Vader is a tier 9 badass and I disagree.     

And if you really think ESB Luke is close to Vader then how do you explain these clips?  In the first clip he disarms Luke casually

Not a contradiction. Disarms aren't uncommon between comparable fighters. 
 

and in the second clip he is using the force to throw objects at Luke without the move of his finger, firmly indicating that he isn't even trying. He doesn't need to. He is just that more powerful than Luke.

Not a contradiction.  Luke still isn't incapped, nor does Vader use the Force to directly influence Luke. 

Now as for the final portion of their fight. Luke was clearly fighting with aggression and tagged Vader on the shoulder. But this is more of a feat for Luke than it is a bad one for Vader. 

It signifies that Luke is more of a challenge to Vader than you'd like to believe.  Which is what's being argued here. 

As ISV said, Luke is a prodigy, he is the son of the chosen one after all.

Indeed.  The son of the chosen one... and having been conceived by natural means, is a generation diluted from the Force itself.  I.E - he had less potential than Anakin while being far less trained. 

Furthermore, how much training a character has quite frankly doesn't matter much and isn't the end all be all of things. 

It's one part of the equation.

Remember, Savage Opress had less training than Luke in the force and he was already throwing down with Count Dooku  Asajj Ventress and Anakin and Obi Wan.

Probably a result Savage's multiple advantages over ESB Luke. 

- skilled with primitive weapons (staffs, axes etc) as well as h2h pre-transformation 
- Receives a huge boon to physical stats post transformation, having already been a top-tier among zabraks 
- Is imbued un empathetic anger and hatred 
- Deemed well trained enough to go out on missions for Dooku 
- Uses the dark side of the force, which allows newbies to jump a couple of tiers 

That last point is the crucial one.  In G-canon, the Darkside is a cheat code, instantly enabling people to jump a few tiers with training.  Gillard says as much.  It's well reflected in the films (TPM Kenobi vs Maul, Anakin vs Dooku, ROTJ Luke vs Vader).  There is no evidence, in all the sources covering the fight, that ESB Luke is using the Darkside.  For him, unlocking his full potential will be a slog lasting years, perhaps decades unless he decides to trip on red hot dark power.  In the end, ESB Luke isn't anywhere close to tapping his potency, is far less combatively trained than Savage and there's no evidence to suggest he's cheating. 
 

Darth Bane as of Path of Destruction had significantly less training at the Academy and ended up surpassing every member of the brotherhood of darkness including Kas'im who had decades worth of lightsaber training to his belt.

He had significantly more training than Luke at the academy.  Far more chances to test his skills with a blade against peers - losing vs Forhargh, prevailing vs Forhargh, losing vs Sirak, prevailing vs Sirak, winning against Kasim via collapsing building.  Not that the brotherhood were anything special. The head honchos stifling knowledge by limiting what they could study - that two lightsabers could be weilded at the same time being one of those baffling secrets.  

Its quite plausible that a Jedi who is the son of The Chosen whom George Lucas himself claimed he could become the very thing Anakin failed to become is capable of contending with Darth Vader after three years of training from Yoda and Ben.

 

And still george believed Luke to be below the likes of Qui Gon and TPM Kenobi, for the reasons outlined.  Doesn't bode well for Vader stans.

Ziggy you can't use George and then say Anakin had more potential than Luke

pick a lane:

He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

> Korriban wrote:Ziggy you can't use George and then say Anakin had more potential than Luke

pick a lane:

He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Source: Rolling Stone #375 

That isn't saying Luke had more potential than unburnt Anakin if that's what you're trying to imply.

> Korriban wrote:Ziggy you can't use George and then say Anakin had more potential than Luke

pick a lane:

He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting of his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Source: Rolling Stone #375 

Luke could become stronger than the Emperor, yes. 

That they had the exact same potential isn't abundantly clear, but even if they did, I doubt that Luke could be anywhere close to AOTC Anakin with a few weeks training.  I find it unlikely that he's even surpassed that point by ROTJ.

AOTC Anakin trounces ROTJ Luke, yeah.

On a side note, comparisons with the ones greatly favor Anakin over Luke when it comes to potential.

MasterCilghal wrote:On a side note, comparisons with the ones greatly favor Anakin over Luke when it comes to potential.

They are irrelevant

LOTL wrote:They are irrelevant

May I ask why?

MasterCilghal wrote:

LOTL wrote:They are irrelevant

May I ask why?

Because Luke is 65 in Crucible. Count Dooku of all people( with infinitely inferior potential) kept growing till 70 and then grew "infinitely" more powerful by the dark side then. This is after a properly established training regimen and frequent practice against the most powerful Jedi in history for 70 years totally

Luke pales in comparison to that. Luke is what he is in ROTJ, DE only by the virtue of raw power and the most basic awareness of techniques and virtually no training etc. He has no one "far superior" to him to practice and push his talents against regularly( Qui Gon has said that one match against a worthy opponent is better than 20 matches against inferior opponents in battle) and the access to knowledge he has even in Crucible is likely a fraction of what the Jedi had in the PT era

The point is that Luke has not unlocked even a fraction of his potential. I would legit put money that Qui Gon beats 65 Y.O Count Dooku. In comparison, Revenge of the Sith Count Dooku is "infinitely" better and he receives much better training than Luke throughout

The Abeloth comparison also is flawed. For all we know, the version of Abeloth that Luke faced on her planet was the one capable of contending with the Ones and that she grows more powerful later on. We have no context or information other than the fact that the Abeloth imprisoned by Sinkhole Station is a fraction of her former self and that the Abeloth released basically becomes much more powerful

Luke was basically "destroying" that Abeloth with his mastery of the force. While later on it becomes clear that Abeloth is a notch above Luke, early Abeloth is certainly in Luke's tier. It is also worth noting that when Luke employs the complete power of the force( cells glowing with light) they basically stalemate each other, and that is the middle to late Abeloth( I think Luke was also weakened before the battle but that is not certain)

Now, for the comparison to be true, you have to prove:

1. Early Abeloth isn't the one capable of contending with the Ones while also being aware of the fact that once the Station is gone, she is much more powerful

2. Proving that the Ones collectively are above peak Abeloth

3. Proving that peak Abeloth is not the Abeloth we observe in FOTJ then

At least, I am not aware. If you have quotes that portray the above, you are welcome to give your case

@LOTL

-Qui Gon has said that one match against a worthy opponent is better than 20 matches against inferior opponents in battle-

Didn't Anoon Bondara say that in regards to sparring with Qui-Gon?

Meatpants wrote:@LOTL

-Qui Gon has said that one match against a worthy opponent is better than 20 matches against inferior opponents in battle-

Didn't Anoon Bondara say that in regards to sparring with Qui-Gon?

That was Qui Gon

Quote?

Meatpants wrote:Quote?

https://www.quora.com/How-good-is-Qui-Gon-as-a-duelist

Can't be bothered copying it

@LOTL I think we should continue the discussion somewhere else, it’s not really on topic here, but I will respond eventually.

MasterCilghal wrote:@LOTL I think we should continue the discussion somewhere else, it’s not really on topic here, but I will respond eventually.

Yeah

I am a bit out of touch with FOTJ hence the above is not certain but that is the impression I currently have

B-Team wins.

Any B-team member can solo.

keep pedaling your bullshit without the ability to respond to or back up your claims

He’s called George Lucas.

MasterCilghal wrote:@LOTL I think we should continue the discussion somewhere else, it’s not really on topic here, but I will respond eventually.

Well?

Vader ragdolls everyone casually.