Re: What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine?

March 31st 2020, 11:08 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i doubt anyone hates the gillard system more than me, but him saying that a druggy will always be a druggy implies that he is comparable to before aka better or just as good as sidious and yoda, and not 'likely below' lol

Gillard's describing Vader as being a druggy will always be a druggy means that he's going to be continue being reliant on the Dark Side of the Force, which Gillard likens to a "Force LSD," and he never actually makes a comparison between suited Vader and Sidious/Yoda. George Lucas, who Gillard is influenced by, says that suited Vader is a lot less powerful than pre-suit Vader in the 2004 DVD commentary of ESB, which is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

March 31st 2020, 11:23 am

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i doubt anyone hates the gillard system more than me, but him saying that a druggy will always be a druggy implies that he is comparable to before aka better or just as good as sidious and yoda, and not 'likely below' lol

Gillard's describing Vader as being a druggy will always be a druggy means that he's going to be continue being reliant on the Dark Side of the Force, which Gillard likens to a "Force LSD," and he never actually makes a comparison between suited Vader and Sidious/Yoda. George Lucas, who Gillard is influenced by, says that suited Vader is a lot less powerful than pre-suit Vader in the 2004 DVD commentary of ESB, which is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

if he never makes a comparison, then why jump straight into "he is not as good as them tho" then lol?

i dont think it matters, since what gillard deals in, is dueling, and not usage of the force, even IF he talks about it. this is supported by the question itself, which asks about his tiering system, which covers dueling, so him talking about the druggyness (which, guess what, is what made gillard think that anakin became a 9), is clearly a mention to his dueling skill, and not how powerful he is. and as ive said before, the gillard system is very shit anyhow, and i dont support it in the first place.

March 31st 2020, 11:38 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i doubt anyone hates the gillard system more than me, but him saying that a druggy will always be a druggy implies that he is comparable to before aka better or just as good as sidious and yoda, and not 'likely below' lol

Gillard's describing Vader as being a druggy will always be a druggy means that he's going to be continue being reliant on the Dark Side of the Force, which Gillard likens to a "Force LSD," and he never actually makes a comparison between suited Vader and Sidious/Yoda. George Lucas, who Gillard is influenced by, says that suited Vader is a lot less powerful than pre-suit Vader in the 2004 DVD commentary of ESB, which is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

if he never makes a comparison, then why jump straight into "he is not as good as them tho" then lol?

i dont think it matters, since what gillard deals in, is dueling, and not usage of the force, even IF he talks about it. this is supported by the question itself, which asks about his tiering system, which covers dueling, so him talking about the druggyness (which, guess what, is what made gillard think that anakin became a 9), is clearly a mention to his dueling skill, and not how powerful he is. and as ive said before, the gillard system is very shit anyhow, and i dont support it in the first place.

When I said he never makes a comparison, I am referring to the email. In other sources, Gillard says that Anakin/Vader is only mentally a 9, but not physically because he went there too quickly. Ergo, he is not as good as Yoda and Sidious, who are proper 9s.

Gillard/Lucas's system isn't exclusively limited to duelling skill only because Gillard says that Anakin physically becomes a 9 once he turns to the Dark Side, which is a part of the Force. You can call it shit all you want, I don't like the system either, but I don't use my personal incredility to dismiss it because Gillard didn't create it by himself, Both Gillard and Lucas worked on the system collectively. Not to mention, Lucas's statement in the ESB commentary still stands because he's not only the creator of Star Wars, but the DVD commentary itself is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

March 31st 2020, 12:09 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i doubt anyone hates the gillard system more than me, but him saying that a druggy will always be a druggy implies that he is comparable to before aka better or just as good as sidious and yoda, and not 'likely below' lol

Gillard's describing Vader as being a druggy will always be a druggy means that he's going to be continue being reliant on the Dark Side of the Force, which Gillard likens to a "Force LSD," and he never actually makes a comparison between suited Vader and Sidious/Yoda. George Lucas, who Gillard is influenced by, says that suited Vader is a lot less powerful than pre-suit Vader in the 2004 DVD commentary of ESB, which is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

if he never makes a comparison, then why jump straight into "he is not as good as them tho" then lol?

i dont think it matters, since what gillard deals in, is dueling, and not usage of the force, even IF he talks about it. this is supported by the question itself, which asks about his tiering system, which covers dueling, so him talking about the druggyness (which, guess what, is what made gillard think that anakin became a 9), is clearly a mention to his dueling skill, and not how powerful he is. and as ive said before, the gillard system is very shit anyhow, and i dont support it in the first place.

When I said he never makes a comparison, I am referring to the email. In other sources, Gillard says that Anakin/Vader is only mentally a 9, but not physically because he went there too quickly.

he literally says the opposite of this, but ok.

Gillard/Lucas's system isn't exclusively limited to duelling skill only because Gillard says that Anakin physically becomes a 9 once he turns to the Dark Side, which is a part of the Force. You can call it shit all you want, I don't like the system either, but I don't use my personal incredility to dismiss it because Gillard didn't create it by himself, Both Gillard and Lucas worked on the system collectively. Not to mention, Lucas's statement in the ESB commentary still stands because he's not only the creator of Star Wars, but the DVD commentary itself is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

turning to the dark is a mental thing, something that gillard clearly takes into account. thats something he believes changed anakin into a deadlier duelist. why do u think he mentions the mental part in the first place? gillard DID create it himself lmao he literally says that he also created the lvl 9, but didnt tell people about it hahaha.

March 31st 2020, 2:10 pm

im still thinking gillard s opinion could matter in many ways since he was the stunt coordinator of the pt era without mentioning that for some parts the tiering system was made by him but backed up by lucas only

March 31st 2020, 3:53 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

he literally says the opposite of this, but ok.

Gillard/Lucas's system isn't exclusively limited to duelling skill only because Gillard says that Anakin physically becomes a 9 once he turns to the Dark Side, which is a part of the Force. You can call it shit all you want, I don't like the system either, but I don't use my personal incredility to dismiss it because Gillard didn't create it by himself, Both Gillard and Lucas worked on the system collectively. Not to mention, Lucas's statement in the ESB commentary still stands because he's not only the creator of Star Wars, but the DVD commentary itself is included in Leland Chee's holocron.

turning to the dark is a mental thing, something that gillard clearly takes into account. thats something he believes changed anakin into a deadlier duelist. why do u think he mentions the mental part in the first place? gillard DID create it himself lmao he literally says that he also created the lvl 9, but didnt tell people about it hahaha.

@lorenzo.r.2nd

he literally says the opposite of this, but ok.

He actually doesn't. There's an interview where he says Anakin has gone there too quickly, I'll look for it later, but for now, you will have to make do with this statement in the Revenge of the Sith Production Notes:

What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine? - Page 2 2020-02-22

What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine? - Page 2 2020-02-22

turning to the dark is a mental thing, something that gillard clearly takes into account. thats something he believes changed anakin into a deadlier duelist. why do u think he mentions the mental part in the first place? gillard DID create it himself lmao he literally says that he also created the lvl 9, but didnt tell people about it hahaha.

Anakin turning to the Dark Side is not just a mental thing, it's going from one side of the Force i.e. the Light Side, to another side of the Force i.e. The Dark Side. The Dark Side is the quicker path to power. Gillard mentioned the aspect about Anakin not learning the mental discipline to emphasise that he's an unconventional level 9 fighter. Gillard didn't create it himself, the source above says "In order to design and choreagraph the most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity, grading it from 'one' to 'ten'." This is from an officially Lucasfilm licensed book by the way, included in Leland Chee's holocron. Gillard and Lucas created it, not just Gillard himself.

March 31st 2020, 5:27 pm

@latham

Gillard says "A jedi could reach a level nine, but thats the between light and darkness. In fact, it gives us an idea about the characters, because Anakin has learned the art, has an enormous talent, but he hanst learned the mental", so yes, the mental 100% matters. It matters so much, that he lost to Obi Wan. Thanks for proving my point.

Oh, and that thing also says at the end that Lucas calls it "Gillard's work" by the way.

Final point here https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

April 1st 2020, 8:36 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:@latham

Gillard says "A jedi could reach a level nine, but thats the between light and darkness. In fact, it gives us an idea about the characters, because Anakin has learned the art, has an enormous talent, but he hanst learned the mental", so yes, the mental 100% matters. It matters so much, that he lost to Obi Wan. Thanks for proving my point.

I never said that the mental doesn't matter, and you blatantly ignored the rest of the quote becasue it says "A Jdi could reach a level nine, but thats the between light and darkness. In fact, it gives us an idea about the characters, because Anakin has learned the art, has an enormous talent, but he hasn't learned the mental discipline.' Gillard explains the combat outcome: 'At the end, Anakin makes a mistake: he gets carried away by anger. And Obi-Wan doesn't make mistakes." --> Gillard attributes Anakin's defeat at him getting carried away with his anger, which is a mental miscalculation.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Oh, and that thing also says at the end that Lucas calls it "Gillard's work" by the way.

It says that THE LIGHTSABER FIGHT SEQUENCES are Gillard's work: "George Lucas himself unsurprisingly classes Gillard's work as being fundamental to the film's success. 'To create an action scene is very laborious,' he says. 'Nick has turned Hayden and Ewan into amazing swordsmen. And they are almost always themselves on the screen.' The finished result is as spectacular as it is energizing." --> This is referring to the how well Gillard has trained actors of the movies to perform in the action scenes, which isn't mutually exclusive with the earlier statement: "In order to design and choreagraph the most important of scenes, Gillard and Lucas decided upon each Jedi's dexterity, grading it from 'one' to 'ten'." --> which explicitly states that George Lucas and Nick Gillard decided to grade upon each Jedi's dexterity, dexterity meaning their fighting prowess.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Final point here https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

Not sure wherabouts Gillard says that he alone, without input from George Lucas, created the tier system for the PT fighters in that interview. We do have confirmation from Gillard himslef saying "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting." in Homing Beacon 126 as included in the official Star Wars website, so to suggest that Gillard made up the tier system all by himself... As opposed to both Gillard and Lucas working on it together as supported by LFL sources, is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty.

April 1st 2020, 10:22 am

@latham

I really didnt. I was actually gonna use that part, but i thought it was unnecessary by that point.

....yes, he dictates how the fights go. Lucas gives input, and only changes something if he really wants to. Aside from that, Gillard orders around how the saber fights go. As for that statement, its not coming from Lucas' or Gillard's mouth, unlike what i posted later.

bruh

April 1st 2020, 10:34 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:@latham

I really didnt. I was actually gonna use that part, but i thought it was unnecessary by that point.

....yes, he dictates how the fights go. Lucas gives input, and only changes something if he really wants to. Aside from that, Gillard orders around how the saber fights go. As for that statement, its not coming from Lucas' or Gillard's mouth, unlike what i posted later.

bruh

OK? The point that I was making is that Anakin/Vader never learned the mental discipline and that he makes mental errors, which is directly supported by the source that I quoted.

The fact that Gillard dictated the fights is not an argument at all. In fact, Gillard dictates how fights go because he was permitted by Lucas himself, the director and creator of Star Wars. Gillard didn't just randomly come on the set and decide to become the stunt co-ordinator that dictates the fights without anyone's permission, George Lucas officially allowed Nick Gillard to do that. The statement that I cited comes from the RotS movie production notes, an LFL publication that's included in Leland Chee's holocron and also G canon as well. In fact even unpublished production notes from the movies are G canon.

bruh?

April 1st 2020, 12:19 pm

More like u switched that up, cuz ur argument was he was mentally fine and physically unstable, iirc. U even said that Gillard supported, when that was obviously not the case, as we now know.

It doesnt matter at all, only the fact that he decides who is in which tier lol how they fight, how they win, how they lose, etc etc doenst matter, cuz lucas hired him? nice argument there. In the video, Gillard says "i made the 7 whatevers". Its pretty cut and dry tbh

April 1st 2020, 12:32 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:More like u switched that up, cuz ur argument was he was mentally fine and physically unstable, iirc. U even said that Gillard supported, when that was obviously not the case, as we now know.

It doesnt matter at all, only the fact that he decides who is in which tier lol how they fight, how they win, how they lose, etc etc doenst matter, cuz lucas hired him? nice argument there. In the video, Gillard says "i made the 7 whatevers". Its pretty cut and dry tbh

Looks like you've been strawmanning me this whole time because I never said he was mentally fine and physically unstable, nor did I say that Gillard supported the idea that Anakin/Vader was mentally fine and physically unstable.

KEK, the fact that George Lucas, the director of the entire Prequel trilogy who had huge amounts of creative control over the entire trilogy, hired Gillard to be involved in the creative process of the tier system *does* matter because he's been officially permitted by Lucas himself to do that, so it holds more weight then your personal incredility. Gillard doesn't even say that he alone without Lucas's collaboration made the tier system, the LFL RotS movie production notes explicitly states that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters.

April 1st 2020, 12:51 pm

"He actually doesn't. There's an interview where he says Anakin has gone there too quickly, I'll look for it later, but for now, you will have to make do with this statement in the Revenge of the Sith Production Notes:"

"When I said he never makes a comparison, I am referring to the email. In other sources, Gillard says that Anakin/Vader is only mentally a 9, but not physically because he went there too quickly."

I just quoted both of those from ur comments. U literally say that that gillard said that anakin was mentally there, but physically not, but now u wanna go for the opposite. U gotta pick, man. One or the other.

Its not my credibility when Gillard said that he made them lmao. He literally emphasizes the "I" when he says "i made them" lol

April 1st 2020, 1:04 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:"He actually doesn't. There's an interview where he says Anakin has gone there too quickly, I'll look for it later, but for now, you will have to make do with this statement in the Revenge of the Sith Production Notes:"

"When I said he never makes a comparison, I am referring to the email. In other sources, Gillard says that Anakin/Vader is only mentally a 9, but not physically because he went there too quickly."

I just quoted both of those from ur comments. U literally say that that gillard said that anakin was mentally there, but physically not, but now u wanna go for the opposite. U gotta pick, man. One or the other.

Its not my credibility when Gillard said that he made them lmao. He literally emphasizes the "I" when he says "i made them" lol

Looks like I made a big typo, what I really meant to say was "When I said he never makes a comparison, I am referring to the email. In other sources, Gillard says that Anakin/Vader is only physically a 9, but not mentally because he went there too quickly." this explains our confusion What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine? - Page 2 1289255181

What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine? - Page 2 1289255181

But did he say "I alone made them all independently by myself"? No he didn't, and the RotS movie production notes and StarWars.com directly confirm that Lucas worked on the system with Gillard, you're just arguing semantics.

April 1st 2020, 1:09 pm

He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

April 1st 2020, 1:17 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

Not at all, because the LFL sources, as I've repeatedly emphasised, say that Lucas and Gillard collaborated on the system. Your intepretation of Gillard's words contradicts the the LFL sources. The fact that Gillard said that he made them isn't mutually exclusive with the sources that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters and worked on the system together.

April 1st 2020, 1:23 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

Not at all, because the LFL sources, as I've repeatedly emphasised, say that Lucas and Gillard collaborated on the system. Your intepretation of Gillard's words contradicts the the LFL sources. The fact that Gillard said that he made them isn't mutually exclusive with the sources that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters and worked on the system together.

u can emphasize it as much as u want- from where i stand, gillard's word > lfl.

April 1st 2020, 1:26 pm

Ok moving on from this for the moment, a question. With all of this in mind, wouldn't it make sense for Vader to be on DE Luke's level? If the latter learned all of what Vader knows? Or at the bare minimum be at DE Luke's level prior to training under?

April 1st 2020, 1:33 pm

Zenwolf wrote:Ok moving on from this for the moment, a question. With all of this in mind, wouldn't it make sense for Vader to be on DE Luke's level? If the latter learned all of what Vader knows? Or at the bare minimum be at DE Luke's level prior to training under?

its quite possibly actually since he learn all from palpatine and conducted his own studies in the dark side
i say vader is=early DE luke

April 1st 2020, 1:44 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

Not at all, because the LFL sources, as I've repeatedly emphasised, say that Lucas and Gillard collaborated on the system. Your intepretation of Gillard's words contradicts the the LFL sources. The fact that Gillard said that he made them isn't mutually exclusive with the sources that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters and worked on the system together.

u can emphasize it as much as u want- from where i stand, gillard's word > lfl.

But Gillard's statement doesn't contradict the LFL sources, one of which is actually quoting Gillard himself saying George works on the system of levels, your intepretation of Gillard's 2016 statement contradicts the LFL sources because you're dealing in absolutes.

April 1st 2020, 1:49 pm

Zenwolf wrote:Ok moving on from this for the moment, a question. With all of this in mind, wouldn't it make sense for Vader to be on DE Luke's level? If the latter learned all of what Vader knows? Or at the bare minimum be at DE Luke's level prior to training under?

per DE (and its author, apparently), Vader > early DE Luke.

April 1st 2020, 1:52 pm

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

Not at all, because the LFL sources, as I've repeatedly emphasised, say that Lucas and Gillard collaborated on the system. Your intepretation of Gillard's words contradicts the the LFL sources. The fact that Gillard said that he made them isn't mutually exclusive with the sources that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters and worked on the system together.

u can emphasize it as much as u want- from where i stand, gillard's word > lfl.

But Gillard's statement doesn't contradict the LFL sources, one of which is actually quoting Gillard himself saying George works on the system of levels, your intepretation of Gillard's 2016 statement contradicts the LFL sources because you're dealing in absolutes.

Dealing in absolutes let Vader have command of the second biggest army in the galaxy's history. Im fine in dealing with absolutes.

April 1st 2020, 2:02 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:He said "I made them". The logical conclusion here is that he is saying that he is main maker for the thing.

Not at all, because the LFL sources, as I've repeatedly emphasised, say that Lucas and Gillard collaborated on the system. Your intepretation of Gillard's words contradicts the the LFL sources. The fact that Gillard said that he made them isn't mutually exclusive with the sources that both Lucas and Gillard graded the fighters and worked on the system together.

u can emphasize it as much as u want- from where i stand, gillard's word > lfl.

But Gillard's statement doesn't contradict the LFL sources, one of which is actually quoting Gillard himself saying George works on the system of levels, your intepretation of Gillard's 2016 statement contradicts the LFL sources because you're dealing in absolutes.

Dealing in absolutes let Vader have command of the second biggest army in the galaxy's history. Im fine in dealing with absolutes.

Dealing in absolutes led to Vader becoming a miserable, self loathing cyborg who lost the things that he wanted the most because he git his limbs chopped off and burnt to a crisp on Mustafar. you're virtually admiting that you're intepretating Gillard's 2016 statement one way and deliberately excluding other intepretations because you hate Gillard and Lucas's system.

April 1st 2020, 2:04 pm

as far as i know, the correct interpretation for said interview seems to be my own, and until proven incorrect, ill keep believing that.

April 1st 2020, 2:15 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:as far as i know, the correct interpretation for said interview seems to be my own, and until proven incorrect, ill keep believing that.

What kind of Sith training did suited Darth Vader receive from Palpatine? - Page 2 3363707401

Your interpretation of the interview has been proven incorrect by StarWars.com and the RotS Movie production notes.