How powerful is Darth Vader compared to Clone Wars and Old Republic era Jedi and Sith (canon and legends)?

I’d say him being Clone Wars high council isn’t even debatable and I’d put him as equal to RotS Anakin because some sources say Anakin was superior and some say Vader was superior. He scaled to both prime Starkiller and the Starkiller Clone both of whom are superior to start of the game Marek who bodied Shaak Ti (a renowned swordswoman and Force practitioner and one of the best the order had at the time who had likely grown stronger during her time in exile) despite being injured and being at a disadvantage because she literally had the entire planet helping her; and happened long before his prime. I keep hearing how people like to use him being “equal” to Old Ben (who isn’t even much weaker than his RotS counterpart) as an anti feat but if you actually watch ANH or read the tie in books, you’ll see that Vader was suppressed (because he was playing it safe) and still basically controlled the entire fight with ease. Oh, and Fightsaber and Jedi Battles make it clear that he was superior to Old Ben. Another thing I see people downplay Vader with is that Lucas said “we’ve never see real Jedi at work” but not only is that contradicted by Vader’s feats but Lucas was referring to when he said that he was referring to choreography which people would know if they’d actually watch the TFM Featurettes.


IDK for Old Republic

The case for RotJ Vader being superior to RotS Anakin lies on Luke being superior to Anakin as well, which isn't substantiated by anything and is completely counter intuitive (Anakin had greater potential and a longer and more complete training).

We could consider that to be a low showing from Vader, due to circunstances but I honestly can't see RotJ Vader being above Dooku, for example. Perhaps close to or even equal but not superior to that, in combative terms.

This is one of those characters whose power level is completely inconsistent in Legends. Lucas didn't care about the EU, so the people at Lucasfilm licensed a ton of material that Lucas would then retcon. Problem is, said material was rarely officially rendered non-canon. Instead, a system of canonicity levels was introduced.

So, up to 1999, Darth Vader's power was basically anyone's guess, as long as it didn't contradict the OT. Then, to justify the more spectacular fights in the PT, Lucas decided that the warriors we'd seen in the OT weren't "real Jedi" at all, which would render TPM Kenobi > Vader and explain Luke matching him within a few years of training.

After ROTS, however, he changed his mind, perhaps realizing that it wouldn't be that hard for Sidious to find a TPM Kenobi level replacement for Vader, so now he pictured him "like Darth Maul or Count Dooku". Subsequently, stories like Star Wars: Purge and eventually The Force Unleashed portrayed a more powerful Vader that didn't mesh so well with other previously published material. Jedi Battles went on to claim ANH Vader was stronger than ROTS Anakin.

Then came the 2014 reboot, and Disney simply followed that trend.

Canon: Just under the top tiers.
Legends: Dooku level.

Canon > Yoda, Legends ~ Tpm Maul

legends: under rots titans 

canon: under top tiers

IG wrote:Canon > Yoda, Legends ~ Tpm Maul

How is he above Yoda in canon? And beneath Maul in legends? Don’t bring up Old Ben and don’t bring up Lucas saying “we’ve never seen real Jedi at work.” I debunked both in the description here.

Vader isn't above Yoda in canon, lol.

EU - below Plagueis
Canon - above Windu/Dooku

Legends: TCW Maul level at best
Canon: Above Dooku

DarthAdi wrote:Legends: TCW Maul level at best
Canon: Above Dooku

How is he only Maul level?

@AlakanSpacewalker:
Why would he be higher? GL quotes screw him hard. By ANH he is an inferior force user to "shadow of his former self" Ben Kenobi (that quote about Vader being a 4 and Ben being a 6). I don't think he grew enough by ROTJ to be above TCW Maul. He also lacks the polish of lifelong masters.

The cancer you put on this thread reminds me of what your avatar went through during the course of his story @DarthAdi

DarthAdi wrote:@AlakanSpacewalker:
Why would he be higher? GL quotes screw him hard. By ANH he is an inferior force user to "shadow of his former self" Ben Kenobi (that quote about Vader being a 4 and Ben being a 6). I don't think he grew enough by ROTJ to be above TCW Maul. He also lacks the polish of lifelong masters.

If I see the underlined argument one more time, so help me God.

Isv wrote:The cancer you put on this thread reminds me of what your avatar went through during the course of his story @DarthAdi

Why? Vader is my favourite character and i would like to hear an argument for him. I just don't see it.

legends - max wank is him being a legit threat to ROTJ sheev. normal placement is above 99% of other sith lords, and just under the PT titans by idk how much. minimum is above average jedi by pure feats, but not stronger than ancient sith, even the weaker ones like sadow.

canon- prolly the 3rd strongest mortal behind AS sheev and prime luke.

BoD wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:@AlakanSpacewalker:
Why would he be higher? GL quotes screw him hard. By ANH he is an inferior force user to "shadow of his former self" Ben Kenobi (that quote about Vader being a 4 and Ben being a 6). I don't think he grew enough by ROTJ to be above TCW Maul. He also lacks the polish of lifelong masters.

If I see the underlined argument one more time, so help me God.

Why?

DarthAdi wrote:

Isv wrote:The cancer you put on this thread reminds me of what your avatar went through during the course of his story @DarthAdi

Why? Vader is my favourite character and i would like to hear an argument for him. I just don't see it.

I wrote why I think he’s Clone Wars era high council level in the description so go read that plz. When was it said Ben Kenobi was > him? Vader not being in the level of lifelong masters is contradicted by his feats (see above).

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:

Isv wrote:The cancer you put on this thread reminds me of what your avatar went through during the course of his story @DarthAdi

Why? Vader is my favourite character and i would like to hear an argument for him. I just don't see it.

I wrote why I think he’s Clone Wars era high council level in the description so go read that plz. When was it said Ben Kenobi was > him? Vader not being in the level of lifelong masters is contradicted by his feats (see above).

This.

At first, Lucas and the writers debated whether it was appropriate for Vader to resort to these "tricks" and if viewers wouldn't wonder why he hadn't used them during his duel with Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but immediately arose the simple explanation that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Vader so it would have proved useless.

At first, Lucas and the writers debated whether it was appropriate for Vader to resort to these "tricks" and if viewers wouldn't wonder why he hadn't used them during his duel with Obi-Wan on the Death Star, but immediately arose the simple explanation that Obi-Wan was more powerful than Vader so it would have proved useless.

Where is that from? And you do realize that that idea was scrapped way back in the 70s and currently Vader couldn’t do that because Obi Wan had a Force Wall around himself which Vader couldn’t break. Besides ANH Obi Wan isn’t even that much weaker than Clone Wars Kenobi and I’d argue he was stronger in the Force than ever before.