Mace windu vs Darish Vol

Standard rules

Vol

Windu. Can scale himself to be more powerful than Vol (if he's not already), and is more-than-likely a significantly better combatant.

Not sure what makes Vol > Mace. Mace has scaling that as Ant said can put him solidly above Vol, and he's a much better duelist. 

Mace in a goodish fight.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Windu. Can scale himself to be more powerful than Vol (if he's not already), and is more-than-likely a significantly better combatant.

But can he counter mnemotherapy?

BoD wrote:Not sure what makes Vol > Mace. Mace has scaling that as Ant said can put him solidly above Vol, and he's a much better duelist. 

Mace in a goodish fight.

Mace literally doesn't have scaling putting him above Vol, lol. Ant was referencing the Vaapad amp, an idea that doesn't work if Vol is more powerful than ROTS Sidious (he likely is). Mace has no counter for an ability like mnemotherapy.

vol after a heck fight.

although windu have scaling and saber ability in his favor tho....

Mnemetherapy works against Abeloth because she willingly opens her own mind to attack Vol's. The text attributes this move as "arrogant" and "reckless." I doubt Mace would even go for a TP attack, let alone when it's explicitly a poor tactical move. Vol would have to force his way into Mace's mind for mnemetherapy to work.

And what's Vol finding in Mace's history that mnemetherapy would work as effectively as it would against someone as damaged as Abeloth, anyway?

Mace literally doesn't have scaling putting him above Vol, lol. 

He really does.

 Ant was referencing the Vaapad amp, an idea that doesn't work if Vol is more powerful than ROTS Sidious (he likely is). 

Alright, I'll bite: why doesn't it work? Vaapad was at its limit against Force lightning because Force lightning isn't what it was intended to be used against and Mace was already tiring even by that point. That's not a immovable limit. You also need to substantiate the idea that he's likely more powerful than ROTS Sidious, or that Vol's lightning > ROTS Sidious'.

Mace has no counter for an ability like mnemotherapy.

Please point to a time Vol has used mnemotherapy in a physical setting against an opponent rushing at him with a lightsaber, or explain how he would be able to breach Mace's mental defences?

BoD wrote:

Mace literally doesn't have scaling putting him above Vol, lol. 

He really does.

 Ant was referencing the Vaapad amp, an idea that doesn't work if Vol is more powerful than ROTS Sidious (he likely is). 

Alright, I'll bite: why doesn't it work? Vaapad was at its limit against Force lightning because Force lightning isn't what it was intended to be used against and Mace was already tiring even by that point. That's not a immovable limit. You also need to substantiate the idea that he's likely more powerful than ROTS Sidious, or that Vol's lightning > ROTS Sidious'.

Mace has no counter for an ability like mnemotherapy.

Please point to a time Vol has used mnemotherapy in a physical setting against an opponent rushing at him with a lightsaber, or explain how he would be able to breach Mace's mental defences?

Provide aforementioned scaling.

Didn't Vol tanked a TK blast from Abeloth? He should be more powerfull but Windu is likely more skilled and has Vaapad. Not sure on this.

Provide aforementioned scaling.

You know exactly what scaling it is. Mace by ROTS is around the same level as ROTS Sidious and Yoda, which speaks for itself in terms of his power. Vol, on the other hand, does not have the same scaling, nor does he have the lightsaber feats to suggest that he can contend with anyone of that level if they get close. He's also not shown the power necessary to outright overwhelm one, let alone quick enough to stop them getting close.

BoD wrote:

Provide aforementioned scaling.

You know exactly what scaling it is. Mace by ROTS is around the same level as ROTS Sidious and Yoda, which speaks for itself in terms of his power. 

It does speak volumes about his power, but not in the way you think it does.

BoD wrote:

Provide aforementioned scaling.

You know exactly what scaling it is. Mace by ROTS is around the same level as ROTS Sidious and Yoda, which speaks for itself in terms of his power. Vol, on the other hand, does not have the same scaling, nor does he have the lightsaber feats to suggest that he can contend with anyone of that level if they get close. He's also not shown the power necessary to outright overwhelm one, let alone quick enough to stop them getting close.

That's not concrete scaling above Vol though. Vol is said to have "much of the power of [Luke] Skywalker, and experience" and is said to be a "devastating counter" for Abeloth. Luke requires a full expenditure of his power to sever Callista from Abeloth via Mnemotherapy, so much so that he drops to his knees afterwards. This isn't even an active combat situation. To contrast, Vol damages Abeloth so much she cannot retain a physical form, and as a side-effect destroys a city. Vol's also one or two oneshot gaps above Gaalan/Kyp Durron (FOTJ), and Kyle Katarn. Kyp at this time (jobbing) is still casually moving around the Jade's Shadow, a 55 meter long ship. Mace isn't oneshotting foes on Kyp or Kyle's level for sure. Furthermore, being a good saber duelist is irrelevant, as Vol's able to go after one like Abeloth with Mnemotherapy, an ability originally meant to be therapeutic, but when perverted the way Vol (and Luke) did against Abeloth, it's extremely deadly.

Luke requires a full expenditure of his power to sever Callista from Abeloth via Mnemotherapy, so much so that he drops to his knees afterwards. This isn't even an active combat situation. To contrast, Vol damages Abeloth so much she cannot retain a physical form, and as a side-effect destroys a city. 

Luke performing an exorcism on Callista is far more complicated feat than what Vol does. I don't recall Abeloth losing physical form either. When was this?

@DarthAnt66 It’s been a while since I’ve read the book, but iirc she’s so screwed up she can’t particularly retain her host for a short period. I could be wrong though.

That's not concrete scaling above Vol though. Vol is said to have "much of the power of [Luke] Skywalker, and experience" and is said to be a "devastating counter" for Abeloth.

And? Jaesa Willsaam was a devastating threat to Baras, doesn't mean she's comparable in power. Having "much of the power" of Luke is fairly meaningless since it's unquantifiable.

Luke requires a full expenditure of his power to sever Callista from Abeloth via Mnemotherapy, so much so that he drops to his knees afterwards.

Quite a bit different to what Vol did.
 

To contrast, Vol damages Abeloth so much she cannot retain a physical form, and as a side-effect destroys a city.

Yeah, by tricking her to gain access:

He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.

In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.

Anguish. Loss that ripped and tore at the heart of all that was Abeloth. Betrayal. Need-need!-for companionship, for love, for someone, anyone, anything, to adore her and to never, ever leave. To stay with her forever ...

-Don't leave me don't leave me don't leave me-

Something that was part of her, that she had loved with all that was in her, was gone, gone beyond finding again, and someone would pay, and she would be loved and idolized and worshipped, it was right, it was what should be, what would be-

He felt her astonishment, and then fury, and knew he was discovered. The tendrils were no longer coyly teasing and caressing. They were violent and brutal now, wrapping about his throat, invading his body. He resisted and went on the attack. There was a wound, visible as something black and bloody and infected, in what passed for a soul or a heart of this monster. And he went right for it.

Not something Mace would do since Mace rarely (if ever) uses TP.

Vol's also one or two oneshot gaps above Gaalan/Kyp Durron (FOTJ), and Kyle Katarn. Kyp at this time (jobbing) is still casually moving around the Jade's Shadow, a 55 meter long ship.

ROTS Yoda has replicated this with two ships while forcing the contents back in. Pre-AOTC Dooku was doing this on a nexus. 

Furthermore, being a good saber duelist is irrelevant, as Vol's able to go after one like Abeloth with Mnemotherapy, an ability originally meant to be therapeutic, but when perverted the way Vol (and Luke) did against Abeloth, it's extremely deadly.

Which he explicitly did when she let her defences down:

The tendrils were on him now, slithering into his mouth, his ears, his nose, caressing in a strangely appealing manner even as he cringed back in loathing.

It was a dream, he knew, but it was more than a dream as well. And even in such an in-between place, Vol knew what he had to do. It terrified him, but the thought of being destroyed without a fight by this vile thing terrified him even worse.

He had to dive inside that mind.

He took a precious second to wrap the Force around him like a blanket, then unshielded his mind and opened it to Abeloth.

In her arrogant glee at the ambush she had performed, she was reckless. She surged forward, violating his mind, unaware that this was precisely what Vol wanted. She had given him entrance, and he wasted not a heartbeat in opening up to the ugliness that was within. Like a thief with the law on his heels, Vol plundered swiftly, with no care for delicacy or of discovery. And he found unexpected riches.

It's not something he can just do on anyone.

@BoD I’ll respond soon.

Vol wins in a good fight

And? Jaesa Willsaam was a devastating threat to Baras, doesn't mean she's comparable in power. Having "much of the power" of Luke is fairly meaningless since it's unquantifiable.

This argument's deliberately dishonest and makes no sense. Abeloth's comments are after her fight with Vol. She has firsthand experience with Vol's power, and the context of "devastating counter" is completely different from the context involving Jaesa. Jaesa was a massive threat to Baras because she could unearth his spy network and thereby destroy him. Vol is a "devastating counter" to Abeloth in regards to their fight. The idea the quote is unquantifiable isn't the point, as it's a blatant claim that Vol's comparable to Luke. If he weren't close, then Abeloth wouldn't have remarked it, it's fairly simple. 

Quite a bit different to what Vol did.

But the idea remains the same, that Vol and Luke both perverted the Mnemotherapy ability in order to strike at Abeloth. Whereas Luke wasn't in a combatative situation, he still expends all his power on this attack, as does Vol, but Vol's in a combatative situation. Something else there that speaks volumes about Vol's strength is his ability to withstand Abeloth's desperate final blow, after he's exhausted his strength attacking her:

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:Her pain exploded and hurled him back, releasing him, but causing the most exquisite agony Vol had ever experienced to race through every part of his being.

Vol's raw power is also shown in this fight in his defense. Vol's capable of withstanding Abeloth's "blast of Force Anger", as it buffets him. Per The Essential Reader's Companion,  Vol "fights back with his keen mind" (representative of TP), and is able to "peer past Abeloth's illusions". This isn't a terrible showing in the slightest, and overall authorial intent, quotes from the novel, plus Vol's own feats support his comparability to Luke. 

Yeah, by tricking her to gain access:

Not really tricking her if it's her intent though.

Not something Mace would do since Mace rarely (if ever) uses TP.

Which isn't the point. Vol's ability to use Mnemotherapy + Overall comparability to Luke suggest that he would be able to, in fact, get through Mace. Considering Mnemotherapy doesn't require abject mental domination, Vol's ability to use it on mace isn't particularly suspect.

ROTS Yoda has replicated this with two ships while forcing the contents back in. Pre-AOTC Dooku was doing this on a nexus. 

Once again missing the point. Not once did I claim Kyp's feat is as good as Yoda, I said Vol's scaling one or two oneshot gaps (Vol to Workan is one, Workan to Gaalan is conceivably another) above Kyp's stuff is something that dictates general superiority overall to Mace and Yoda because Mace isn't oneshotting someone of Kyp or Kyle's caliber as a combatant. Even if you say the gap from Mace to Kyle or so is around the gap from Workan to Vol, it doesn't make up the gap from Gaalan to Workan. 

Which he explicitly did when she let her defences down:

Abeloth went in for the attack. Logically, Mace is going to attack as well. His style itself denotes it, Mace is the guy on the precipice of the dark side, always leaning over the chasm but never falling. Vol can take advantage of such openings left, especially because of his raw power advantage. 

It's not something he can just do on anyone.

Not just anyone, no, but considering Vol's comparable to Luke, at least loosely, it's safe to assume he's outmatching Mace. Though I don't view this as a oneshot for Vol, or anything of the like, I'll say that Mace isn't winning anything more than 1 round.

Vol having 'much of the power' of Luke isn't the same as being on his level. I'd wager that many characters could be argued to weild the same thing. And Vol's attack on Abeloth was achieved through her doing something stupid. The idea he'd repeat that against Mace Windu, is definitely requiring much scrutiny.

Vol having 'much of the power' of Luke isn't the same as being on his level. I'd wager that many characters could be argued to weild the same thing

I’d agree with you if it weren’t for the fact that the quote, if put in the right context, implies some sort of relativity between the two, otherwise it wouldn’t make any sense and the author wouldn’t have included it. 

Fate of the Jedi: ascension wrote:Abeloth sat huddled in Ship’s interior. She had not revealed to Khai or anyone just how badly wounded she had been by the attack on Kesh. Vol had much of the power of Skywalker, combined with experience, and it had been a devastating encounter. She had harmed him, too, though. Almost killed him. And she had destroyed his precious city, unleashing her outrage and fury on the site of her shame.
In the end, though, she would recover. And she would be stronger for the experience. In the meantime, she would absorb and learn all she could.

Vol’s ability to contend with Abeloth is attributed in large part (I’d say experience isn’t that important) to his power being “much of” that of Luke. Now, since every single Abeloth avatar, barring the extremely weakened ones in Apocalypse, has been portrayed has been portrayed as being in Luke’s range, in most cases above, if Vol himself weren’t on hat level he wouldn’t have have been able to contend and this quote would have no reason to exist. And this is the Abeloth who has forced Luke to unleash his full power a total of 3 times. To solidify that, Abeloth calls Vol Luke’s antithesis, for what it’s worth: 

Ascension wrote:But he had tricked her, had used a technique that his antithesis had used on her not so long before. He had learned the uprooting technique of the Theran Listeners, as had the despised Skywalker, and used it with even less care than that Jedi had.

With that, I’m not saying Vol is powerful enough to give Luke the fight of his life, because that would be reaching, but there is really nothing against the idea of Vol being in Luke’s tier or at least Yoda’s (if you want to be conservative), after all nothing besides DE Sheev places a cap on him. Many have tried to turn this into a numerical comparison, but that’s not what the quote is saying. To put it simply: Vol is close enough to Luke that he can withstand Abeloth for a time. 

And Vol's attack on Abeloth was achieved through her doing something stupid.

It’s his victory/stalemate that was achieved by tricking her into overextending, not his contention in general, which, as the first quote I provided can attest, he did contend thanks to his relativity to Luke. Let’s not forget that in the fight, Vol was able to withstand Abeloth’s tentacles, root himself against a “blast of anger”, feats I do not see anyone but a top tier force user achieving, and I’m sure you’ll agree. 

As well said as all that is, and I agree on many points. I simply can't agree that the aforementioned equates to him being privy to some form of relativity. It's far too loose and circumstantial to argue that's significantly beyond the capabilities of Windu here or Kun and Outlander in the tourney.