Meetra Surik vs Kyle Katarn

Who wins

Kyle.

Surik

Surik.

Surik, solidly/easily.

Surik, not very difficult either.

Kyle wins because he was stomped by injured Caedus.

Meetra

@Greysentinel365 1.The fight noted as even was a stomp?

2.Caedus's injuries made him burn out faster, they didn't necessarily hinder his combative capability though.

Meetra in a close fight imo.

DC77 wrote:@Greysentinel365 1.The fight noted as even was a stomp?

2.Caedus's injuries made him burn out faster, they didn't necessarily hinder his combative capability though.

1. It was "even" in the opinion of a padawan who was selected because she was weak as hell. Looking at the actual text makes it clear that none of them had a hope in hell. Katarn wasn't even worth Jacen's notice. Parrying his attacks on reflex and in general just not caring.

2. Caedus wasn't even trying to fight them seriously. He was stalling for the GAR forces so he could capture them alive. So even if this idea held weight (it doesn't) the text denies he was going all out explicitly.

Greysentinel365 wrote:

DC77 wrote:@Greysentinel365 1.The fight noted as even was a stomp?

2.Caedus's injuries made him burn out faster, they didn't necessarily hinder his combative capability though.

1. It was "even" in the opinion of a padawan who was selected because she was weak as hell. Looking at the actual text makes it clear that none of them had a hope in hell. Katarn wasn't even worth Jacen's notice. Parrying his attacks on reflex and in general just not caring.

2. Caedus wasn't even trying to fight them seriously. He was stalling for the GAR forces so he could capture them alive. So even if this idea held weight (it doesn't) the text denies he was going all out explicitly.

The fact that Caedus was waiting for the GAR forces doesn’t mean he was holding back in any way. Simply he wasn’t trying to kill them ( which he ultimately did anyway) but capture them.

Will respond to Grey later, am in School right now.

@GreySentinel365:

1. It was "even" in the opinion of a padawan who was selected because she was weak as hell. Looking at the actual text makes it clear that none of them had a hope in hell. Katarn wasn't even worth Jacen's notice. Parrying his attacks on reflex and in general just not caring.

2. Caedus wasn't even trying to fight them seriously. He was stalling for the GAR forces so he could capture them alive. So even if this idea held weight (it doesn't) the text denies he was going all out explicitly.

1.You not taking into account the Padawan's assessment because she... isn't powerful makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Her power level has nothing to do with her ability to judge a fight and determine the outcome.

2.Caedus parries Kyle's initial blows on reflex because he was kicking about the fodder Jedi, and the ability to wreck fodder while duelling a peer to yourself isn't some remarkable performance, we have multiple examples of this throughout the mythos with Maul doing a similar thing with Secura and Mace during Sod and Dooku with Anakin and Kenobi in ROTS. Caedus has honed his reflexes, it makes no sense for him to not be able parry the odd blow here and there without paying undivided attention.

3.Caedus "didn't care" which is why Kyle managed to tag him while Caedus's undivided attention was focused on him, why Caedus considered him a threat and why Kyle described the situation he was in as bad?

4.Caedus wanting the team alive doesn't mean much and is in fact, near irrelevant. He had no issue with killing them if necessary as he showed at the end of the duel and even when he was totally focused on the goal of capturing them alive at the start he still had no issue severing limbs as he showed against Kyle. Furthermore the fact that Caedus needs reinforcements suggests he's not capable of subduing them alive himself.

5.Caedus has to feint and pull a speeder into Kyle's back to gain the upper hand, with him not being strong enough to outright overpower Kyle's TK defence.

All evidence seems to suggest that the team are on Caedus's level, not several tiers beneath. even if they aren't his direct equal. This team is comprised of fodder barring Kyle which suggests that he's probably on Caedus's level by himself, which'd make sense given the rest of the Strike Team are collectively beneath him.

DC77 wrote:1.You not taking into account the Padawan's assessment because she... isn't powerful makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Her power level has nothing to do with her ability to judge a fight and determine the outcome.

The issue, of course, is context. The fight being even was attributed to the entire team, in a time span of 8 seconds. We will get to the actual fight later on, but Kyle wasn't the sole contributor to said: "even fight". The Padawan was watching 5 beings battle without neither being seriously threatened. "Even" isn't exactly the worst way to describe it when she likened it to a highly choreographed act.

DC77 wrote:2.Caedus parries Kyle's initial blows on reflex because he was kicking about the fodder Jedi, and the ability to wreck fodder while duelling a peer to yourself isn't some remarkable performance, we have multiple examples of this throughout the mythos with Maul doing a similar thing with Secura and Mace during Sod and Dooku with Anakin and Kenobi in ROTS. Caedus has honed his reflexes, it makes no sense for him to not be able parry the odd blow here and there without paying undivided attention.

We can make note of why things were seemingly easy for Caedus, but why were so much of it described as easy and effortless? We never had a sense of dread for Caedus until after Kyle was disposed of. The fight might have been even so far, but that doesn't mean that they posed the same level of threat to Caedus as he posed to them. What Kyle did was never described as being costly to Caedus. Everything seemed to keep him from pressing an advantage, but not anything major. It certainly didn't end in him getting his hands cut off, and decapitated one on one.

Those little distractions and defenses keep Caedus from dedicating 100 percent to any single attack. He was only able to throw a handful of attacks in short bursts, as opposed to going purely on the offensive against Kyle. Kyle, however, was afforded this luxury.

DC77 wrote:3.Caedus "didn't care" which is why Kyle managed to tag him while Caedus's undivided attention was focused on him, why Caedus considered him a threat and why Kyle described the situation he was in as bad?

Caedus had traded a scrape from a kick for cutting off Kyle's entire leg. That is a very advantageous trade-up for any lightsaber duel. Yes, I realize you're under the assumption that Kyle would never have thrown said kick had he not believed in his team, but that's a two-way street; Caedus wouldn't have been scraped (by a kick mind you, not actually kicked full force) had he not exchanged it for a leg severing attack. He put himself in harm's way to end the fight.

And yes, it was bad; It was bad because any possible openings Caedus could exploit were covered up due to the team coordinating. In the context of that statement, it was bad because had the team not been conditioned to fight together, Caedus would have defeated his major opposition within 10 seconds. It meant that he had to be more careful because the biggest threat he was facing, couldn't be defeated easily through conventional means. They were shoring up any perceived flaws in Kyle's guard and reacting to Caedus' single saber exploiting said flaws. This meant that said "fodder" had now earned their place on the battlefield alongside Katarn.

Imagine if you will, that ROTJ Vader had a force user capable of deflecting the odd dangerous lightsaber swing away from Vader's person, and Vader planned this beforehand. So, for instance, in the 36-second long fight when Luke fights him in force rage, that odd user is coming out of nowhere to deflect a saber away from Vader and, saves him the energy from having to deal with it head-on. This wouldn't necessarily change the outcome, but it would prolong the battle and save a decent amount of stamina for Vader. He would know he wouldn't have to be purely defensive in nature, nor that he would have to deal with every attack. It affords him more opportunities for his tactics. More survivability.

This isn't true for every team battle, nor can you just add anyone to any fight under the guise of it being able to save the main opponent. In the case of the Katarn fight, however, it was true. The team WAS coordinating, and that turns possibly an easy fight into an unpredictable one. Caedus thought he could just fight Kyle Katarn without interference due to how low level the rest of his team was, but he was wrong. The fodder might not have been a direct threat to Caedus' life, but they were capable of protecting the actual "threat" and, giving him more chances to be said "threat". Kyle didn't give Caedus the chance to instantly murder his team, and the team didn't give Caedus the chance to murder Kyle. Perfect harmony.

It allowed Kyle to throw risky attacks that would have normally ended in his leg getting cut off.

DC77 wrote:4.Caedus wanting the team alive doesn't mean much and is in fact, near irrelevant. He had no issue with killing them if necessary as he showed at the end of the duel and even when he was totally focused on the goal of capturing them alive at the start he still had no issue severing limbs as he showed against Kyle. Furthermore the fact that Caedus needs reinforcements suggests he's not capable of subduing them alive himself.

Caedus had only killed Thann once he was being pushed by a two-pronged attack. His strength was waning due in combination to not being recovered from Luke, from Thann going ballistic and pushing Caedus, and Valin deflecting/hitting Caedus with blaster shots. That was a more pressing situation than any he was put in against Kyle, and I know Thann is your second favorite character, but he's not as important to Caedus as Kyle would be. He doesn't need to save Thann in this situation, just Kyle.

Now, I'm not saying he wasn't trying to end Kyle mind you, just that the situations have changed ever so slightly from Kyle to Thann. I really don't care if he were going all out or not, it changes nothing really in a 15-second fight.

Without the reinforcements, he was doing much better than with. He went from casually blocking an angry Thann's attack, to being pushed by him once Valin started deflecting the blaster shots at Caedus. Said "fodder" had now become a threat without Kyle, and with reinforcements. Makes you wonder how bad they were, no?

DC77 wrote:5.Caedus has to feint and pull a speeder into Kyle's back to gain the upper hand, with him not being strong enough to outright overpower Kyle's TK defence.

How far above Kyle would Caedus have to be to instantly end the fight with a TK attack through Kyle's shields? Should he have simply blasted him with the force, or took the chance to "pull" Kyle directly into his lightsaber, when he knew Kyle wouldn't be expecting it? Maybe he would have blasted through his shields, maybe he wouldn't have, we simply don't know. And if he wouldn't have steamrolled Kyle with his full arsenal of defenses up, what then? Is Kyle now equal to Caedus for not having been blown away like a leaf? And if he would have, what is the causation to simply blasting Kyle away? Maybe he gets knocked out hitting something? You said it yourself that Caedus' injuries made him burn out faster, why use that much power against a ready opponent?

Caedus shouldn't be punished for choosing an attack with a higher percentage to end the fight, over simply overpowering his force defenses.

DC77 wrote:All evidence seems to suggest that the team are on Caedus's level, not several tiers beneath. even if they aren't his direct equal. This team is comprised of fodder barring Kyle which suggests that he's probably on Caedus's level by himself, which'd make sense given the rest of the Strike Team are collectively beneath him.

That's very probable, but again, that's attributed to the entire team, not anyone in particular. Considering there's not much to glean from Kyle vs Caedus itself in the way of Kyle being his exact equal, we instead look at the actual clock:

15 seconds

More than double the amount of time it took for Luke to take down Vader; two beings who were around equal, but one had the advantage of falling into force rage. This is a fight that many would agree was a stomp, yet if you look at any 15 seconds of the fight - barring Luke utterly battering Vader against the railing -  Vader does no worse than Katarn was ever described to do. Unless you are so unfathomably below an opponent/completely unprepared, there's a good chance you can survive 15 seconds with adequate protection, and distractions without being stomped. Kyle had the advantage of both.

To phrase this another way:

Should we expect Caedus to utterly stomp Kyle Katarn while "fodder" serves to divide his attention and defend any costly mistakes Kyle makes?  In 15 seconds?


Now I'm not saying Caedus can or can't stomp Kyle in short order. I'm not saying they're equal or not equal. What I am saying, however, is that fight doesn't allow us to piggyback off of Caedus for a solo Kyle performance in a thread and, declare that his new level. All we basically learned is that Kyle can trade exchanges with Caedus for a little while, and all it takes is a coordinated/skilled team to allow Kyle to stalemate Darth Caedus. For 15 seconds. How applicable do you really think this is to every Kyle fight? He didn't even fight Caedus on his own for 15 seconds. Explain why what Kyle accomplished in that fight make him out to be amazing because to me, it seems very unquantifiable.

Oh he exchanged attacks with Darth Caedus for a handful of seconds in a team format? Guess Meetra Surik loses.

Meetra would do better than Kyle, tbh.

Defeating low force sensitive Reborn and Shadowtroopers before confronting a jumped up Dark Jedi is peanuts compared to fighting an army of Sith marauders and assassins trained in the ancient Sith ways and confronting the Sith who taught Nihilus whilst being on a corrupting and spiritually crushing Dark Side nexus.

Sion's far less powerful than Traya, yet he took Nihilus' enraged dark Force wave and walked it off. Nihilus absolutely dwarfs Jerec in every concievable manner. So yeah, even Malachor!Sion should be > Jerec tbh. Traya's another level entirely. Yet Surik was several years pre-prime when she killed Traya.

Kyle didn't actually beat Jerec conventionally anyway. If he did, we'd be getting Neophyte Kyle who can't beat Boc but can beat an amped Dark Jedi who's approximately RotJ Vader in power.

LadyKulvax wrote:Sion's far less powerful than Traya, yet he took Nihilus' enraged dark Force wave and walked it off. Nihilus absolutely dwarfs Jerec in every concievable manner. So yeah, even Malachor!Sion should be > Jerec tbh. Traya's another level entirely. Yet Surik was several years pre-prime when she killed Traya.

Only a year pre-prime, and that's assuming she had continued growth post-KotOR II.

1.Incorrect:

Galactic History 83: The Republic Rebuilds wrote:Meanwhile, the Exile trained new Jedi recruits, forming a council of her companions who achieved mastery and welcoming others who came out of hiding. After years of slow but steady growth, the reborn Jedi Order made a triumphant return to its long-abandoned temple on Coruscant.

But the Jedi Exile could not forget Darth Traya's final warning, suggesting that evil remained in the Unknown Regions. With the Jedi Order flourishing, the Exile left the known galaxy to follow her former commander Revan into darkness.

2.It's stated by both Traya and Sion she will, there's nothing suggesting she suddenly stopped growing for no reason.

Meetra

Close fight either way

Maybe Surik has a technical edge??

No idea who wins this here