Cade Skywalker vs Vaylin

Both at their respective peaks

Just to announce my bias I'll be repping Cade

Vaylin ragdolls if it comes to the Force and wins in a good fight if it comes to sabers.

By ragdoll, you mean destroy Cade's active defenses and control his body as if it were a ragdoll against his will, yes? That being the case, what evidence is there that Vaylin can do this to Cade? Or win a lightsaber duel.

ILS wrote:By ragdoll, you mean destroy Cade's active defenses and control his body as if it were a ragdoll against his will, yes? That being the case, what evidence is there that Vaylin can do this to Cade? Or win a lightsaber duel.

By ragdoll, I'm saying in an exaggerated way that Vaylin can break through Cade's active defences and overpower him with the Force. As for lightsabers, her immense growth from Senya level at the start of KOTET to Arcann level by about the midway point even before her immense growth upon breaking her conditioning impresses me more than Cade's feats.

BoD wrote:

ILS wrote:By ragdoll, you mean destroy Cade's active defenses and control his body as if it were a ragdoll against his will, yes? That being the case, what evidence is there that Vaylin can do this to Cade? Or win a lightsaber duel.

By ragdoll, I'm saying in an exaggerated way that Vaylin can break through Cade's active defences and overpower him with the Force. As for lightsabers, her immense growth from Senya level at the start of KOTET to Arcann level by about the midway point even before her immense growth upon breaking her conditioning impresses me more than Cade's feats.

Okay, so what I said. Now, I did ask for evidence for why this allows her to break Cade's defenses, so when you produce that I'll be happy to respond. As for the dueling part, Vaylin's successes against Senya to my memory were the result of a disparity in raw power - Senya was much better trained. I do recall her briefly dueling with Arcann, but to say that makes her an "Arcann level duelist" is a bit of a stretch. Now, what particular feats lay at the foundation of this scaling chain you've created for Vaylin that impress you more than Cade's own?

My preliminary stance is that Cade is indeed sufficiently powerful not to be "ragdolled", and thus the success Vaylin had against Senya would not aid her against Cade, who is not only a better trained and dedicated warrior but extremely powerful himself, and nor am I convinced that a brief skirmish with Arcann is enough to put her above Cade.

Leaning Cade

Now, I did ask for evidence for why this allows her to break Cade's defenses, so when you produce that I'll be happy to respond.

Even as of her chained iteration, she could perform feats like ragdolling Lana, dominating a KOTFE Arcann level+ opponent in KOTET chapter 3 Outlander, rip apart building sized generators, break free of spirit Valkorion's grip, and be powerful enough to one-shot Senya (a character who could one-shot about a dozen fully armoured Mandalorians with a Force wave). She then broke her conditioning and grew immensely more powerful, reaching across a void that had left her chained self powerless in order to overload generators from orbit. She then one-shot spirit Valkorion, Arcann and Senya and was stated to be superior to chapter 8 Outlander, who'd had months of further growth. 

If you need me to, I'll explain exactly why being able to dominate, ragdoll and one-shot these beings is impressive, but I feel like you already know.

My main question is what has Cade done to suggest that he can match Vaylin in power?

As for the dueling part, Vaylin's successes against Senya to my memory were the result of a disparity in raw power - Senya was much better trained.

Her training gave her an advantage, yes. However, Vaylin was emotionally hindered during the fight (because of her hatred for her mother) and still nearly broke through her defences several times:


Then she switched from defense to offense, retaliating with her own sequence of quick cuts and thrusts meant not to kill, but to drive her daughter back, keeping her off balance and in perpetual retreat.
But instead of giving ground, Vaylin countered with another vicious assault, putting Senya on the defensive again. Surprised, the older woman staggered back, ducking to the side as the pike skimmed past her cheek close enough for her to feel the heat of the glowing blade. It clipped the tip of her shoulder, carving a small chunk from her armor.
The next blow nearly took her leg below the knee – at the very last instant Senya snatched her foot clear. But though she’d spared her limb, she was off balance and out of position. Vaylin pounced, hacking and slashing at her mother; what she lacked in technique she more than made up for in speed and relentless aggression.
Reflexes and instincts honed over thirty years of training allowed Senya to keep the killing blow at bay… but only barely. She ducked and darted to the left, leaping over one of the raging walls of fire crisscrossing the camp.
She’s stronger now. Faster. More confident.


Senya then fights her evenly due to her experience:

But there were still flaws in Vaylin’s form. Now that she had measured her opponent, Senya saw subtle imperfections she could exploit.
Her daughter leaped over the wall of fire between them and charged again. She was pressing the action, trying to overwhelm Senya and go for the quick kill. On the next pass, Senya let the tip of her lightsaber dip, offering a brief opening. As expected, Vaylin seized on the sudden vulnerability. But Senya was ready; anticipating her daughter’s strike she sidestepped the blow and got in close enough to throw an elbow into Vaylin’s chest, staggering her back.
Vaylin caught her footing a step before she stumbled into the nearby flames. Enraged, she rushed her mother again, redoubling her efforts. Senya continued to feint and bait her opponent, using her own aggression against her to control the battle. She could sense her daughter’s frustration mounting as the battle dragged on – her attacks became more desperate, more frenzied. Time and time again Vaylin saw what she thought was an opportunity to end the battle in a single blow, only to have it snatched away at the last instant by her elusive foe.
Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin’s attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve.
“You still fight with too much raw emotion,” Senya grunted as she parried another blow, hoping there was still some part of the little girl she had raised inside the savage creature in front of her. “It clouds your mind.”

However, in the space of a year Vaylin grew from being fodder to Senya to being able to match her when Senya wasn't able to analyse her fighting technique and exploit its flaws. She also managed to push Senya, so the only reason Senya outlasted her was because she paced herself and was thinking clearly:


Fatigue began to take its toll. The blinding speed of Vaylin’s attacks slowed ever so slightly as her muscles began to ache. She was lunging and flailing, off balance and out of sorts. Both combatants were breathing heavily, but unlike her daughter, Senya had been pacing herself, holding something in reserve.

I do recall her briefly dueling with Arcann, but to say that makes her an "Arcann level duelist" is a bit of a stretch.

It wasn't "briefly". They were fighting for several minutes:


https://youtu.be/INdBsMCbDm0?t=687


The two started fighting just as the Outlander killed the Rancor and other animals in the pit. The Outlander and Theron then had to navigate their way through the palace from the very bottom, fighting through countless troops, knights and Horizon Guard members to get to the roof. For reference, the palace is this big:



At the very least, the two fought for a few minutes, during which they stalemated, with both throwing Force blasts and lightsaber attacks at the other. In case you mention her having a power advantage, Arcann had gone through massive emotional and thus power growth at this point, either by being redeemed or by becoming more bloodlusted and rage filled than ever before. The gap between them was not enough that she could dominate, as shown above.

Now, what particular feats lay at the foundation of this scaling chain you've created for Vaylin that impress you more than Cade's own?

I've already mentioned unchained Vaylin's vast superiority to her chained self (who's above a more powerful Valkorion than the one who could wipe out a small army with a Force wave and produce lightning that could kill hundreds even when unfocused and not aimed at them). Her unchained self then grew immensely beyond that to the point that she could one-shot this spirit Valkorion even when he'd raised a shield, as well as one-shotting Arcann and Senya and knocking the Outlander (who at this point was approaching her in power and was still combat ready) several feet backwards.

Now what does Cade have to suggest he can beat her? Not trying to lowball him, just curious why he's Vaylin level.

@BoD

No? You're suggesting that my exaggerated way of saying she's stronger meant I was saying she could ragdoll him. I said she could overpower his defences. Not exactly the same thing.

You'll need to clarify what you mean.

Even as of her chained iteration, she could perform feats like ragdolling Lana, dominating a KOTFE Arcann level+ opponent in KOTET chapter 3 Outlander, rip apart building sized generators, break free of spirit Valkorion's grip, and be powerful enough to one-shot Senya (a character who could one-shot about a dozen fully armoured Mandalorians with a Force wave)

Firstly, while I'm not asking you to post every single one, I would like to see these instances for myself (and I'll produce those needed for Cade).

ragdolling Lana

Providing this is true, what feats does Lana have that even makes this noteworthy? Probably not worth posting.

dominating a KOTFE Arcann level+ opponent in KOTET chapter 3 Outlander

Sorry to sound obtuse, but embedded within your statement are several claims that need to be proven independently before I can accept the premise you're putting forward. You would need to prove that 1. Vaylin overpowered the active defenses of the Outlander in a way that's meaningful to this thread, 2. That the Outlander is "KOTFE Arcann+ level" and 3. That being at such a level is sufficiently powerful to suggest Vaylin could do the same to Cade.

rip apart building sized generators

Finally something we can quantify with some precision. Now, sadly, while a cool feat, it's actually inferior to a telekinetic feat that Cade performed while he was, I dare say, in an even sorrier state than Vaylin was with her conditioning holding her back.


https://imgur.com/a/HzJfG


The shuttle Cade throws at Talon similarly dwarfs that of an average humanoid like the debris Vaylin threw, however there are two reasons Cade's feat is better: firstly, Vaylin threw her debris a shorter distance than Cade's, and at a lower velocity - you can imagine that at the speed the debris Vaylin threw was flying it would have began to drop off had it not hit its target. In contrast, Cade's shuttle carried Talon and flew beyond the horizon, out of sight. Indeed:

https://servimg.com/view/20061208/69





It travels so far that it is barely a blip, in fact, so far it cannot even be seen through the shuttle-sized hole it made in the nearby foliage, in a relatively straight line suggestive of a pretty ridiculous travel speed. Even if we say Vaylin's debris was a bit bigger, as I'm perhaps inclined to agree, that is more than made up for by the sheer velocity Cade's object reached.


Secondly, without clogging the thread, Cade was at his weakest known point in the series here. Aside from the extreme and thoroughly quantifiable power, skill and control increases he receives later (which would result in his power quite literally multiplying), we also know that Cade's control over the Force was worse at this time than it had been seven years prior when he was an adolescent padawan. He had not only spent 7 years deadening his Force connection with death sticks, but his skills with the Force had atrophied and his focus had diminished.
https://imgur.com/a/AJb1Df2

break free of spirit Valkorion's grip

You'll need to expand on the significance of this before I accept that doing this would allow Vaylin to ragdoll another extremely powerful Force user like Cade.

and be powerful enough to one-shot Senya (a character who could one-shot about a dozen fully armoured Mandalorians with a Force wave)

The issue is, Senya's power in the Force doesn't even register next to Cade's, or people much weaker than Cade (going by the woeful feat you cited for her), so I'm unsure why oneshotting Senya would allow her to breach Cade's defenses and overpower him?

She then broke her conditioning and grew immensely more powerful, reaching across a void that had left her chained self powerless in order to overload generators from orbit. She then one-shot spirit Valkorion, Arcann and Senya and was stated to be superior to chapter 8 Outlander, who'd had months of further growth.

I'd like something a bit more quantifiable than "immensely more powerful", but I accept the basic premise that she grew in power notably from this. Now, you've mentioned her reaching through this void that left her feeling powerless, but my understanding is that she was kept inside the void while this was the case? If that's true, correct me if I'm wrong, then that would mean being in orbit would mean she isn't susceptible to the Force-dampening effects you describe? She may be manipulating the environment in the void, but she is doing so remotely and thus isn't subject to the void herself. 

And as always, I wouldn't mind a video link to see what you mean by "oneshot", and a quick explanation of why "oneshotting" said characters relates to Cade in a meaningful way.

My main question is what has Cade done to suggest that he can match Vaylin in power?

Well, to be clear, I never actually made this claim. I've posited that Cade is powerful enough not to have his defenses overpowered by Vaylin so that he can defeat her in a duel. You've seen the shuttle feat already, and the woeful condition Cade was in while he performed it. After receiving a Jedi refresher course, brutal Sith training, a turn in the Embrace of Pain, a device responsible for plunging A'Sharad Hett so deeply into the dark side he came out the other side a Sith Lord (not to mention the wonders it worked for Jacen Solo), gaining a great deal of experience hunting and killing Sith, overcoming all of his spiritual/mental/emotional hang ups, embracing the light side of the Force so that he could dwarf any expression of power he had ever used even when drawing as deeply on the dark side as he ever had on a dark side nexus, achieving a "new mastery of the Force" and finally achieving a heightened connection and understanding of the Force after experiencing death and rebirth (which Krayt spent no short amount of time explaining as being extremely useful for one's understanding of the Force)... then yeah, I'm not entirely convinced Vaylin becoming unchained alone is going to let her ragdoll Cade.

Her training gave her an advantage, yes. However, Vaylin was emotionally hindered during the fight (because of her hatred for her mother) and still nearly broke through her defences several times:

I'm not sure I would call it a hindrance seeing as Vaylin's wild emotional state was the one thing keeping her in the fight. What's the alternative, exactly? Tranquility? I doubt it. 

Now, personally, I'm a lot more impressed by Cade holding off Vong Krayt for several pages, even after royally pissing him off. Sure, Krayt wasn't trying to kill him, but he was happy to use any other means to subdue him. Krayt's a much, much, much more powerful Force user than Senya, has more fighting experience and to cap it off his Vong implants alone make him superhuman physically.

The two started fighting just as the Outlander killed the Rancor and other animals in the pit. The Outlander and Theron then had to navigate their way through the palace from the very bottom, fighting through countless troops, knights and Horizon Guard members to get to the roof.

Have you got a link for the conclusion of their duel? All I see is the start in that link. I'll reserve judgement till then.

I've already mentioned unchained Vaylin's vast superiority to her chained self (who's above a more powerful Valkorion than the one who could wipe out a small army with a Force wave and produce lightning that could kill hundreds even when unfocused and not aimed at them).

Why is Vaylin more powerful than Valkorion?

Her unchained self then grew immensely beyond that to the point that she could one-shot this spirit Valkorion even when he'd raised a shield, as well as one-shotting Arcann and Senya and knocking the Outlander (who at this point was approaching her in power and was still combat ready) several feet backwards.

I'm still unclear on what oneshotting entails so I'll reserve judgement until I see the examples you mentioned. I'm not impressed by her pushing the Outlander back a few feet: remember, your claim is that she can breach Cade's defenses and overpower him, not merely push him back.

Now what does Cade have to suggest he can beat her? Not trying to lowball him, just curious why he's Vaylin level.

Mainly the fact he is the superior duelist. In addition to holding off Krayt, Cade can pretty much fodderise Krayt's Sith Troopers en masse. They are culled from the most powerful Force users at birth, cybernetically upgraded and equipped with built in blasters, can use Force Lightning, do not tire or flinch from pain, can ragdoll normal Sith and slaughter some of the best Jedi in the galaxy while they are amped by T'ra Saa's mega nexus battle meditation. Despite all that, Cade litters the ground around him with their corpses. 



This is just one panel, and I count 11 Troopers including corpses and those just out of panel; there's obviously going to have been a lot more during the main fight.

In the panel that immediately follows you can see they must have killed the Troopers pretty easily seeing as they're now having a normal conversation.

To give a clearer idea of how many Sith Troopers Cade would have been fighting at once:

Cade was described and shown repeatedly as being a kind of one man Sith wrecking ball so its safe to assume that during the Taivas battle, especially when other Jedi started dying, Cade was right in the midst of the Sith Troopers ranks. Now, considering these guys can ragdoll normal One Sith, who themselves have been steeped in the dark side on Korriban for over a century, have all kinds of superhuman augmentation, purer dark side corruption than regular Sith, are culled from those born with the highest potential and are the product of decades of training and conditioning, are tireless, have built in blasters as an added weapon and brush off grazing lightsaber wounds, that's pretty damn impressive.

While T'ra Saa had a potent battle meditation going, there are a few reasons I think it would be mitigated for both Cade and the Troopers.

1. Cade was using the dark side freely, so that doesn't really gel with what T'ra Saa was offering him, which is calm and peace.

2. The Sith Troopers are pretty immune to being demoralised, could draw on the same nexus as everyone else, and are so fanatically bound to Krayt's will, with his presence in their minds at all times, that this should make up for it.

3. We can still use the Jedi's performance against the normal Sith as a baseline, which is suffering zero casualties vs being killed down to just the main cast by the Troopers, with only Cade and Bantha staying behind to hold them off.