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IGLevel Four
SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 1st 2020, 9:40 am
THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. BOTH DEBATERS HAVE AGREED TO A DRAW
Darth Tyranus as of Revenge of the Sith, Joruus C'baoth as of The Last Command.
This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:
- Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
- All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
There will be 3 posts per side, and a 7500 character finisher with three weeks for both debaters to write each post, and two weeks to write the finisher.
Master AzrongerModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 1st 2020, 10:45 am
Don't you still have, like, infinite SSs to finish? Some of which you haven't even posted once in?
_________________
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 1st 2020, 10:47 am
3, one is almost done, one I haven’t posted in (because it undermines my arguments in another SS in a minor way), and one that’s halfway done. MP gave me another SS slot.
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 3rd 2020, 5:59 am
I'm dead, but will be fun
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 5th 2020, 2:56 pm
Section I - Parity with Yoda
Dooku has fought Yoda numerous times, each time coming out extremely well, despite a loss on most occasions. Such an example is his fight with Yoda on Vjun:
While Dooku was amped on Vjun, Yoda was likewise, confirmed by both Sean Stewart and in the novel itself, where all the Jedi are amped, therefore making it far more likely that Yoda was:
Furthermore, we see in Attack of the Clones that Dooku is able to give an incredible fight to Yoda, tiring the latter when Dooku is already noted to be “exhausted”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UUQIIOO8RM
This is an incredible showing, as nigh-parity to Yoda allows Dooku to scale off of almost all beings that preceded him, including the likes of Exar Kun, Darth Malak, and Revan Reborn.
Section II - Skill and Reserves
Dooku’s claim to fame is his skill with a lightsaber, and his skill far outstrips C’Baoth’s, Where C’Baoth has next-to-nothing in terms of saber skill, Dooku’s been remarked as “second only to Master Yoda” with a lightsaber.
Dooku’s also said to have “unmatched” mastery of Makashi, which is useful because Kreia notes that Makashi is, “a technique that helps one resist the Force attacks of an enemy, and is also excellent for lightsaber combat”, and that one should, “Use it against others wielding the Force or lightsabers”, meaning that Dooku has the greatest mastery of a lightsaber form specifically meant to combat other force users and saber wielders.
Another advantage Dooku has here is his ability to get rid of his fatigue, eliminating the possibility of Joruus outlasting him in a fight of stamina:
Section III - Joru(u)s C’Baoth
Joruus is said to have inherited the powers of his template, Jorus C’baoth:
However, the text notes that “the speed with which he had been created had caused various fundamental faults”, a notion backed up by Luke, as he says that, "But I really don't think he's a Dark Jedi. He's erratic and moody, but he doesn't have the sort of evil aura about him that I could sense in Vader and the Emperor. I think it's more likely that Master C'baoth is insane”.
This gives Dooku a fundamental advantage in every way. Given that per Kreia, Makashi allows its users to “resist the Force attacks of an enemy”, Dooku will already have the ability to shrug off most force attacks, but C’baoth’s insanity allows Dooku to exploit almost all openings that Joruus leaves for him, something he is extremely skilled at, demonstrated here:
Here, Dooku is able to take advantage of an opening that Obi Wan leaves him, using a “whipcrack” of his power, a miniscule fraction of his power to completely ragdoll Obi Wan. This is important because Kenobi is noted as “The master of Soresu”, and per Drallig, “This Form [Soresu] maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open styles of some other forms”, meaning that it’s nigh-impossible to find openings in a Soresu-user’s form. Yet Dooku is able to do so, seemingly with ease.
Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that there’s no real evidence that C’Baoth’s clone is far more powerful than the original, or that he is at all. Dooku is far more powerful than C’baoth as a Jedi, as he’s noted to be matched only by Mace Windu and Yoda. Once he turns to the dark, Dooku is noted as being introduced to “power beyond his most spectacular fantasies”, and he’s noted as “once a Great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith”, implying ridiculous growth.
Section IV - The Potency… of a Barrier
The quote above clearly states that only “the combined efforts of several powerful Force users eventually could break through [the barrier]”.
This is demonstrated in Path of Destruction:
Bane gathers his energy across an entire speech, so this is clearly an incredibly powerful attack, and it “shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan temple”, but at the “last possible instance”, Kas’im “threw up a shield” and manages to completely negate the attack.
This is likewise demonstrated in Shadow Conspiracy, when the likes of Sidious, a character so astronomically above Maul is incapable of ragdolling him, and he has to resort to “pounce” on the openings Maul leaves.
From this we can establish that while superiority in the force does play a role in the outcome of a fight, unless there’s an immense gap, no ragdolling or outright telekinetic dominance is displayed. Dooku has several dozen accolades raving about his combat skill, as I’ve already cited, possesses “unmatched” mastery of Makashi, is able to contend and nigh-stalemate Yoda while the latter is amped at least as much as he is.
Like, Joruus isn’t on that tier as a combatant. At all. He has what? Some lackluster accolades that can possibly translate to him being as skilled as his template as a combatant with significant mental gymnastics? Dooku’s one of the greatest combatants of all time, let alone the PT. It’s ridiculous to even begin to assume that they’re semi-comparable as combatants.
Conclusion
So to reiterate here:
@Cheth
Dooku has fought Yoda numerous times, each time coming out extremely well, despite a loss on most occasions. Such an example is his fight with Yoda on Vjun:
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.
He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.
... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.
Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.
While Dooku was amped on Vjun, Yoda was likewise, confirmed by both Sean Stewart and in the novel itself, where all the Jedi are amped, therefore making it far more likely that Yoda was:
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:The difference between Coruscant and here is like the difference between swimming in fresh water and in the ocean. I feel so buoyant.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:Anakin hung in the air for an impossibly long time, let himself fall at last into a shoulder roll, two more shots at a droid trying to sneak up behind him, taking off its weapon hand and blowing out a knee, and then he was standing, perfectly balanced, with the blaster pistols steaming in the thin Vjun rain. "I could walk on water," he said.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:In the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
Furthermore, we see in Attack of the Clones that Dooku is able to give an incredible fight to Yoda, tiring the latter when Dooku is already noted to be “exhausted”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UUQIIOO8RM
This is an incredible showing, as nigh-parity to Yoda allows Dooku to scale off of almost all beings that preceded him, including the likes of Exar Kun, Darth Malak, and Revan Reborn.
Section II - Skill and Reserves
Dooku’s claim to fame is his skill with a lightsaber, and his skill far outstrips C’Baoth’s, Where C’Baoth has next-to-nothing in terms of saber skill, Dooku’s been remarked as “second only to Master Yoda” with a lightsaber.
Dooku’s also said to have “unmatched” mastery of Makashi, which is useful because Kreia notes that Makashi is, “a technique that helps one resist the Force attacks of an enemy, and is also excellent for lightsaber combat”, and that one should, “Use it against others wielding the Force or lightsabers”, meaning that Dooku has the greatest mastery of a lightsaber form specifically meant to combat other force users and saber wielders.
Another advantage Dooku has here is his ability to get rid of his fatigue, eliminating the possibility of Joruus outlasting him in a fight of stamina:
Revenge of the Sith wrote:He pushed this aside, drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away.
Section III - Joru(u)s C’Baoth
Joruus is said to have inherited the powers of his template, Jorus C’baoth:
Star Wars Fact File 86 wrote:The tests on the cloned C'baoth were ultimately disappointing. The new version had all the powers of the original, but the speed with which he had been created had caused various fundamental faults.
However, the text notes that “the speed with which he had been created had caused various fundamental faults”, a notion backed up by Luke, as he says that, "But I really don't think he's a Dark Jedi. He's erratic and moody, but he doesn't have the sort of evil aura about him that I could sense in Vader and the Emperor. I think it's more likely that Master C'baoth is insane”.
This gives Dooku a fundamental advantage in every way. Given that per Kreia, Makashi allows its users to “resist the Force attacks of an enemy”, Dooku will already have the ability to shrug off most force attacks, but C’baoth’s insanity allows Dooku to exploit almost all openings that Joruus leaves for him, something he is extremely skilled at, demonstrated here:
Revenge of the Sith wrote:He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.
Here, Dooku is able to take advantage of an opening that Obi Wan leaves him, using a “whipcrack” of his power, a miniscule fraction of his power to completely ragdoll Obi Wan. This is important because Kenobi is noted as “The master of Soresu”, and per Drallig, “This Form [Soresu] maximizes defensive protection in a style characterized by tight, efficient movements that expose minimal target areas when compared with the relatively open styles of some other forms”, meaning that it’s nigh-impossible to find openings in a Soresu-user’s form. Yet Dooku is able to do so, seemingly with ease.
Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that there’s no real evidence that C’Baoth’s clone is far more powerful than the original, or that he is at all. Dooku is far more powerful than C’baoth as a Jedi, as he’s noted to be matched only by Mace Windu and Yoda. Once he turns to the dark, Dooku is noted as being introduced to “power beyond his most spectacular fantasies”, and he’s noted as “once a Great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith”, implying ridiculous growth.
Section IV - The Potency… of a Barrier
The quote above clearly states that only “the combined efforts of several powerful Force users eventually could break through [the barrier]”.
This is demonstrated in Path of Destruction:
Path of Destruction wrote:"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.
There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.
Bane gathers his energy across an entire speech, so this is clearly an incredibly powerful attack, and it “shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan temple”, but at the “last possible instance”, Kas’im “threw up a shield” and manages to completely negate the attack.
This is likewise demonstrated in Shadow Conspiracy, when the likes of Sidious, a character so astronomically above Maul is incapable of ragdolling him, and he has to resort to “pounce” on the openings Maul leaves.
Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.
From this we can establish that while superiority in the force does play a role in the outcome of a fight, unless there’s an immense gap, no ragdolling or outright telekinetic dominance is displayed. Dooku has several dozen accolades raving about his combat skill, as I’ve already cited, possesses “unmatched” mastery of Makashi, is able to contend and nigh-stalemate Yoda while the latter is amped at least as much as he is.
Like, Joruus isn’t on that tier as a combatant. At all. He has what? Some lackluster accolades that can possibly translate to him being as skilled as his template as a combatant with significant mental gymnastics? Dooku’s one of the greatest combatants of all time, let alone the PT. It’s ridiculous to even begin to assume that they’re semi-comparable as combatants.
Conclusion
So to reiterate here:
- Dooku holds nigh-parity with Yoda, and as such, scales off of his supremacy quotes, and therefore powerhouses like Revan Reborn, Novel Vitiate, and Exar Kun
- His mastery of Makashi is far superior to any saber mastery that C’Baoth has, and Dooku’s extremely skilled at exploiting openings in his opponent’s defenses, and C’Baoth’s insanity makes him very likely to leave such openings.
- Dooku is far, far more powerful than the Jedi C’baoth, who is quite likely in the same realm of power as Joruus.
- Dooku is far and away a superior combatant to Joruus, and barriers allow him to negate any and all force attacks heading his way.
@Cheth
SeturnaLevel One
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 6th 2020, 2:24 am
Cheth is dead.
He can’t make a rebuttal unfortunately
He can’t make a rebuttal unfortunately
- SeturnaLevel One
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 7th 2020, 1:50 am
Cheth wrote:I'm dead, but will be fun
- Master AzrongerModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 23rd 2020, 12:25 pm
_________________
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 23rd 2020, 12:30 pm
Currently writing, but difficult since my computer still isn't workingAzronger wrote:@Cheth
Aware that my deadline is wednesday
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 25th 2020, 6:43 pm
Yoda “parity”
For starters I’d like to say that while I hold Dooku high and somewhat close to Yoda, I would not call it anything near parity. Its virtually impossible for Dooku to be a near-equal to Yoda considering how massive the disparity between Dooku and Sidious is, and because Sidious and Yoda are confirmed equals. Of course this can be explained by Yoda growing from TCW to his duel with Sidious, but that means there is an unquantifiable gap between prime Yoda and TCW Yoda, which also means that there is a severe gap between Dooku and him scaling off Sidious’s superiority to past sith lords. At best the gap would have to look something like this:
Any previous sith < Sidious = ROTS Yoda > TCW Yoda > Dooku.
But its probably likely to be even bigger gaps, since its clear that the intent is for Dooku to be vastly bellow Sidious, considering the latter never even intended to keep him as an apprentice. The disparity between Dooku and Yoda/Sidious is futher supported by Gillard’s ranking.
Yoda, Sidious and Anakin are level nines:
Dooku is a level 8, same as Kenobi and Maul.
While he could be a high tier 8, he is not close enough to be seen as “bordering a 9” like Mace Windu was. And according to Gillard, the gap between an 8 and a 9 is enormous.
To scale, Kit Fisto and AOTC Anakin were seen as sevens, compared to Dooku and Kenobi being eights. So yes its rather obvious that the difference between the levels are massive. Knowing that Yoda as of ROTS is clearly superior to Dooku, the most you could do properly is scale him off early-mid TCW Yoda, who isn’t that much more impressive than Dooku himself, yet still his superior.
I do believe Dooku could give Yoda a good fight, but trying to scale Dooku off from the scaling Yoda gets from Sidious’s scaling is incredibly difficult and impossible to quantify. Dooku could very well be far enough away to be on Kun’s level.
The fact that the type of abilities Dooku has is completely different to that of past sith lords (like Kun’s sith sorcery) makes it even more difficult, since even if Dooku had direct scaling showing superiority in power, their esoteric abilities still could cause them to be perfectly capable of beating him in a fight.
Skill and reserves
Skill is not going to take long because this category is redundant. Joruus does not use lightsabers so disputing this would be a waste of time.
But as for reserves, it should be noted that there are limits to Dooku’s ability to replenish his stamina, as seen during his final duel with Anakin;
Not that I see the need to argue about this point, but since you brought it up I have to argue against you on this. Before you even think about debating that ROTS Anakin is far superior to Joruus, I should mention that both AOTC Anakin and Tholme managed to tire out Dooku. He beat both solidly, I’m not disputing that, but when even weak combatans can do that, how long could he stack up to Joruus?
Of course I will have to substantiate Joruus’s own reserves, and honestly the disparity is huge. In Dark Force Rising, Joruus manages to fully telepathically dominate 37000 people. Not just mindtrick them or read their minds, but having full control of their minds so he can control their every thought and movement. This on itself is a telepathic feat unprecedented in all of Star Wars, even beyond Kun’s freezing of the senate, both in sheer numbers, and in to what degree he controls them (Kun only froze them, Joruus could fully control them). But the reason I mention it at all in this category is the dialogue that occurs while Joruus controls the crew.
You will probably just refer to the end of the conversation, where Joruus decides to give up after Thrawn explained everything he would have to do to successfully attack Coruscant. But the dialogue consists of Thrawn consistently increasing the difficulty of the tasks Joruus has to do. And with the first task, controlling the entire crew for five days and through an entire battle, neither seems to doubt his ability to accomplish that. Joruus additionally controlling the crew of multiple support crafts also do not seem to be out of his limits. Only when Thrawn brings in the fact Joruus will have to make multiple strategic and tactical decisions does he give in, mainly because both know Joruus lacks the military mindset to do so. So not only does Joruus have one of the greatest telepathic feats in Star Wars, he also possesses the ability to hold it for a long timespan, which shows a lot greater force reserves than Dooku has, even if one tries to lowball Joruus to only holding it for minutes.
Dooku vs Jorus
You will have to give some references for Dooku being > Jorus in power, considering all that I know of either reffer to skill with the lightsaber or dueling, or refer to the jedi order before/during TPM or after the Outbound Flight Project had already been lost. And even if you prove that Dooku > Jorus, he has little correlation to Joruus, who is far more experienced in the darkside and telepathy, which means his mastery, power and abilities will be very different from the original. I also fail to see how him being insane will leave him particularly vulnerable when he can control it during The Last Command rather well, and when he practically gains a rage amp.
Its also worth noting that Luke thought a vastly pre-prime Joruus was powerful and masterful enough to be one of the old jedi masters (comparisons could only be to Kenobi and Yoda) even before Joruus underwent massive growth. So we do have some indication that Joruus is more powerful than Jorus beyond just whats sensible and their huge difference in feats. Meanwhile all we have to suggest that they are perfect equals is the fact that they are clones. But what is important to note is that clones usually differ in terms of skill and power. Kaminoan clones have Corr (regular trooper who turned into a clone commando) vs Tup or other fodder clones. Spaarti clones have the average being unable to even aim properly vs Rede who killed a jedi knight. X1 and X2 were clones and in the end X2 beat X1 despite the latter having royal guards helping. And of course Dorsk 81 who was the first of a number of identical clones to be forcesensitive. Which means that being a clone in no way means you have identical powers, and clones should be seen as entirely different characters.
Force Barriers
Saying that the quote says that ONLY a combined effort can break through is false considering no definitive word was used in it. Instead it says that “a force barrier wasn’t perfect” indicating it CAN be broken through. And its odd to argue otherwise when we’ve seen people break through the force wall and mental defences of others, like Joruus has done repeatedly. Even if the quote did say that its impossible to break a force barrier singlehandedly, it would instantly be proven wrong by the fact that it has happened.
But maybe you are right. Maybe Joruus wouldn’t ragdoll him using telekinesis, but then again, why would he?
Telepathic Dominance
I’ve already showed that Joruus has the single-greatest telepathic feat in all of Star Wars, easily controlling 37000 crew members, and being suggested to be able to do so for five days, on multiple support ships and during the length of a battle against Coruscant (though it seems to indicate he’d be unable to control them to win said battle at that point). To compare Darth Caedus (won’t get too much into it since its just a comparison) only put a mental image into a handful of shield operators and was left exhausted:
Even if you start lowballing Caedus in some way or another, I do believe you wouldn’t start arguing that he’s massively sub-Aayla or something. Though maybe you will. But even if you do, Joruus’s feat portrays greater telepathy than even Yoda or ROTS Sidious have shown.
Its also important to note that the nature of blocking telepathy is different than simply blocking a direct telekinetic ability. For example if we take Ulic Qel-Droma, he was affected by the mental domination of both Amanoa and Ommin, neither even trying to directly affect him, rather the entire city/planet at once. But when hit by a direct force blast from Ommin, Ulic shrugged it off and defeated him. So a direct attack of forcepower from Ommin was unable to hurt Ulic, yet Ulic was unable to protect himself from Ommin’s mental attacks for months, despite the latter affecting an entire army pluss multiple jedi at once.
We even have an example from Joruus himself;
Here we see how easily Joruus managed to telepathically dominate Luke to the point he barely could shape his own thoughts or talk back to Joruus. He did the same to Mara earlier, where she was barely able to even stay awake, but i figured you’d find Luke more impressive. This is despite Luke already having outmatched his father Darth Vader, and Luke having fought opponents that use this kind of power before, which means Joruus can even break through the telepathic defences of opponents who do have a strong telepathic defence and experience against it. Dooku has neither, never having faced opponents that used telepathy against him, and certainly noone quite as good at it as Joruus.
Conclusion
Dooku can be compared to TCW Yoda, but in such a comparison he’ll always be the clear inferior (though can give a good fight). But if we look at it as a whole:
Ancient sith < ROTS Sidious = ROTS Yoda > TCW Yoda >= Mace Windu > Dooku
Closing Dooku from properly scaling from any ancient sith unless you do several mental gymnastics.
Dooku is superior in lightsaber combat, but its entirely irrelevant.
Joruus has far greater force reserves
Joruus doesn’t care about ragdoll gaps or lightsaber abilities because he’ll just telepathically dominate Dooku, who never has demonstrated any ability to resist it, especially not one of the strongest telepaths in SW.
For starters I’d like to say that while I hold Dooku high and somewhat close to Yoda, I would not call it anything near parity. Its virtually impossible for Dooku to be a near-equal to Yoda considering how massive the disparity between Dooku and Sidious is, and because Sidious and Yoda are confirmed equals. Of course this can be explained by Yoda growing from TCW to his duel with Sidious, but that means there is an unquantifiable gap between prime Yoda and TCW Yoda, which also means that there is a severe gap between Dooku and him scaling off Sidious’s superiority to past sith lords. At best the gap would have to look something like this:
Any previous sith < Sidious = ROTS Yoda > TCW Yoda > Dooku.
But its probably likely to be even bigger gaps, since its clear that the intent is for Dooku to be vastly bellow Sidious, considering the latter never even intended to keep him as an apprentice. The disparity between Dooku and Yoda/Sidious is futher supported by Gillard’s ranking.
Yoda, Sidious and Anakin are level nines:
“In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.”
Dooku is a level 8, same as Kenobi and Maul.
"Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves…..."
While he could be a high tier 8, he is not close enough to be seen as “bordering a 9” like Mace Windu was. And according to Gillard, the gap between an 8 and a 9 is enormous.
"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."
“Mace is eight, bordering a nine.”
To scale, Kit Fisto and AOTC Anakin were seen as sevens, compared to Dooku and Kenobi being eights. So yes its rather obvious that the difference between the levels are massive. Knowing that Yoda as of ROTS is clearly superior to Dooku, the most you could do properly is scale him off early-mid TCW Yoda, who isn’t that much more impressive than Dooku himself, yet still his superior.
I do believe Dooku could give Yoda a good fight, but trying to scale Dooku off from the scaling Yoda gets from Sidious’s scaling is incredibly difficult and impossible to quantify. Dooku could very well be far enough away to be on Kun’s level.
The fact that the type of abilities Dooku has is completely different to that of past sith lords (like Kun’s sith sorcery) makes it even more difficult, since even if Dooku had direct scaling showing superiority in power, their esoteric abilities still could cause them to be perfectly capable of beating him in a fight.
Skill and reserves
Skill is not going to take long because this category is redundant. Joruus does not use lightsabers so disputing this would be a waste of time.
But as for reserves, it should be noted that there are limits to Dooku’s ability to replenish his stamina, as seen during his final duel with Anakin;
“Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-
Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.”
-Revenge of the Sith
Not that I see the need to argue about this point, but since you brought it up I have to argue against you on this. Before you even think about debating that ROTS Anakin is far superior to Joruus, I should mention that both AOTC Anakin and Tholme managed to tire out Dooku. He beat both solidly, I’m not disputing that, but when even weak combatans can do that, how long could he stack up to Joruus?
Of course I will have to substantiate Joruus’s own reserves, and honestly the disparity is huge. In Dark Force Rising, Joruus manages to fully telepathically dominate 37000 people. Not just mindtrick them or read their minds, but having full control of their minds so he can control their every thought and movement. This on itself is a telepathic feat unprecedented in all of Star Wars, even beyond Kun’s freezing of the senate, both in sheer numbers, and in to what degree he controls them (Kun only froze them, Joruus could fully control them). But the reason I mention it at all in this category is the dialogue that occurs while Joruus controls the crew.
You will probably just refer to the end of the conversation, where Joruus decides to give up after Thrawn explained everything he would have to do to successfully attack Coruscant. But the dialogue consists of Thrawn consistently increasing the difficulty of the tasks Joruus has to do. And with the first task, controlling the entire crew for five days and through an entire battle, neither seems to doubt his ability to accomplish that. Joruus additionally controlling the crew of multiple support crafts also do not seem to be out of his limits. Only when Thrawn brings in the fact Joruus will have to make multiple strategic and tactical decisions does he give in, mainly because both know Joruus lacks the military mindset to do so. So not only does Joruus have one of the greatest telepathic feats in Star Wars, he also possesses the ability to hold it for a long timespan, which shows a lot greater force reserves than Dooku has, even if one tries to lowball Joruus to only holding it for minutes.
Dooku vs Jorus
You will have to give some references for Dooku being > Jorus in power, considering all that I know of either reffer to skill with the lightsaber or dueling, or refer to the jedi order before/during TPM or after the Outbound Flight Project had already been lost. And even if you prove that Dooku > Jorus, he has little correlation to Joruus, who is far more experienced in the darkside and telepathy, which means his mastery, power and abilities will be very different from the original. I also fail to see how him being insane will leave him particularly vulnerable when he can control it during The Last Command rather well, and when he practically gains a rage amp.
Its also worth noting that Luke thought a vastly pre-prime Joruus was powerful and masterful enough to be one of the old jedi masters (comparisons could only be to Kenobi and Yoda) even before Joruus underwent massive growth. So we do have some indication that Joruus is more powerful than Jorus beyond just whats sensible and their huge difference in feats. Meanwhile all we have to suggest that they are perfect equals is the fact that they are clones. But what is important to note is that clones usually differ in terms of skill and power. Kaminoan clones have Corr (regular trooper who turned into a clone commando) vs Tup or other fodder clones. Spaarti clones have the average being unable to even aim properly vs Rede who killed a jedi knight. X1 and X2 were clones and in the end X2 beat X1 despite the latter having royal guards helping. And of course Dorsk 81 who was the first of a number of identical clones to be forcesensitive. Which means that being a clone in no way means you have identical powers, and clones should be seen as entirely different characters.
Force Barriers
The quote above clearly states that only “the combined efforts of several powerful Force users eventually could break through [the barrier]”.
Saying that the quote says that ONLY a combined effort can break through is false considering no definitive word was used in it. Instead it says that “a force barrier wasn’t perfect” indicating it CAN be broken through. And its odd to argue otherwise when we’ve seen people break through the force wall and mental defences of others, like Joruus has done repeatedly. Even if the quote did say that its impossible to break a force barrier singlehandedly, it would instantly be proven wrong by the fact that it has happened.
But maybe you are right. Maybe Joruus wouldn’t ragdoll him using telekinesis, but then again, why would he?
Telepathic Dominance
I’ve already showed that Joruus has the single-greatest telepathic feat in all of Star Wars, easily controlling 37000 crew members, and being suggested to be able to do so for five days, on multiple support ships and during the length of a battle against Coruscant (though it seems to indicate he’d be unable to control them to win said battle at that point). To compare Darth Caedus (won’t get too much into it since its just a comparison) only put a mental image into a handful of shield operators and was left exhausted:
“Caedus tried to snap back at the moment the airburst sent a blinding, searing shock wave across the packed city, but he was a fraction too late, and he caught a moment of pure animal terror that took his breath away. He jerked alert in his seat, wanting to complete a scream that wasn't his. He caught it in time. If he'd screamed-well, the crew thought he was crazy anyway.
On the monitor, he could see a fireball spreading and debris billowing up into the atmosphere on a plume of rolling smoke. Now he needed other GA vessels to turn toward the planet and press home their advantage. He wondered if he could even move. He was drained, and for a moment he couldn't even grip the arms of his seat.”
– Legacy of the Force: Revelation
Even if you start lowballing Caedus in some way or another, I do believe you wouldn’t start arguing that he’s massively sub-Aayla or something. Though maybe you will. But even if you do, Joruus’s feat portrays greater telepathy than even Yoda or ROTS Sidious have shown.
Its also important to note that the nature of blocking telepathy is different than simply blocking a direct telekinetic ability. For example if we take Ulic Qel-Droma, he was affected by the mental domination of both Amanoa and Ommin, neither even trying to directly affect him, rather the entire city/planet at once. But when hit by a direct force blast from Ommin, Ulic shrugged it off and defeated him. So a direct attack of forcepower from Ommin was unable to hurt Ulic, yet Ulic was unable to protect himself from Ommin’s mental attacks for months, despite the latter affecting an entire army pluss multiple jedi at once.
We even have an example from Joruus himself;
“She’d seen the same sort of thing work for the Emperor, and Skywalker’s eyelids were heavy enough as it was.
Too heavy, in fact. Like hers had been on the approach to Jomark.
….
Even without looking at him, she could tell when the Force-empty zone around her ysalamir touched Skywalker. He inhaled sharply, shoulders straightening from a slump he probably hadn’t even noticed they had, and nodded as if he finally understood a hitherto unexplained piece of a puzzle.”
-Star Wars: Dark Force Rising
Here we see how easily Joruus managed to telepathically dominate Luke to the point he barely could shape his own thoughts or talk back to Joruus. He did the same to Mara earlier, where she was barely able to even stay awake, but i figured you’d find Luke more impressive. This is despite Luke already having outmatched his father Darth Vader, and Luke having fought opponents that use this kind of power before, which means Joruus can even break through the telepathic defences of opponents who do have a strong telepathic defence and experience against it. Dooku has neither, never having faced opponents that used telepathy against him, and certainly noone quite as good at it as Joruus.
Conclusion
Dooku can be compared to TCW Yoda, but in such a comparison he’ll always be the clear inferior (though can give a good fight). But if we look at it as a whole:
Ancient sith < ROTS Sidious = ROTS Yoda > TCW Yoda >= Mace Windu > Dooku
Closing Dooku from properly scaling from any ancient sith unless you do several mental gymnastics.
Dooku is superior in lightsaber combat, but its entirely irrelevant.
Joruus has far greater force reserves
Joruus doesn’t care about ragdoll gaps or lightsaber abilities because he’ll just telepathically dominate Dooku, who never has demonstrated any ability to resist it, especially not one of the strongest telepaths in SW.
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 25th 2020, 6:54 pm
- SeturnaLevel One
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 4:22 am
Nice Post Cheth
The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 8:12 am
The are you proud kills me, good post cheth, I look forward to you reading mine
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 9:49 am
@IG I forgot to add an image (Luke one), added it now, just so you are aware. If you think it was too late I can remove it whenever though, not too important for my argument.
And thanks Seeker and ISV, kind of rushed it though
And thanks Seeker and ISV, kind of rushed it though
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 9:54 am
Yeah np, adding it is fine.Cheth wrote:@IG I forgot to add an image (Luke one), added it now, just so you are aware. If you think it was too late I can remove it whenever though, not too important for my argument.
And thanks Seeker and ISV, kind of rushed it though
xoltholLevel Five
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 11:59 am
@Cheth Good post
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
February 26th 2020, 1:18 pm
Thanks! Wanted to reply to you first but then I realised i had one day left for this lolxolthol wrote:@Cheth Good post
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
March 1st 2020, 6:58 pm
Since IG is too busy and already is using Dooku in a debate we decided to call this a draw
- The Fallen WarriorLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
March 1st 2020, 6:59 pm
Cheth wrote:Since IG is too busy and already is using Dooku in a debate we decided to call this a draw
He needs all his power to beat me
- Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
March 1st 2020, 7:06 pm
He realised my next post would ragdoll himIsv wrote:Cheth wrote:Since IG is too busy and already is using Dooku in a debate we decided to call this a draw
He needs all his power to beat me
- IGLevel Four
Re: SS - Darth Tyranus (IG) vs. Joruus C'baoth (Cheth)
March 1st 2020, 7:08 pm
Cheth wrote:He realised my next post would ragdoll himIsv wrote:Cheth wrote:Since IG is too busy and already is using Dooku in a debate we decided to call this a draw
He needs all his power to beat me
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