★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

Retracting my vote. Debaters are evenly matched imo.

Why would you wait to see who takes a perceived victory out of two horrendously biased commentators rather than just make your own mind up based on the information you've received?

Anyway voting Plagueis cause fuck Revan looool

This is an incredibly entertaining debate, I love it! Anyway, after thorough evaluation of the posts—unless DarthAnt66’s opposition makes an argument that can convince me otherwise in the future/final stages of the debate—I think I’ll side with Revan >~>

So Ant brought his minions from SWEB, these sheep shouldn't count. SMH

Ah! I came across this forum from the “Top 50 Most Powerful Force Users” thread in ComicVine, where there was a sent link that leads to this forum, in fact I’m more familiar with Azronger than anyone else that I’ve seen in this thread lol <3. My decision isn’t influenced by whatever clout DarthAnt66 possesses >~> Gomenasai if I made you think that way.

also i have no idea what an sweb is lmaoooo <~<

I was told it was "In my best interest to vote for _____" with a picture of my Facebook attached under it.
So coming to a conclusion entirely of my own free will I vote:

Revan

Voting Revan. Will elaborate when I am done making chili

raven. the crow man.

DarthMaul666 wrote:Well there's plenty of other people that deserve the number 8 spot, but out of all of the major contenders, I think Revan deserves this one the most.

Note to everyone that this user is a sock. His vote will not be counted.

Isv wrote:So Ant brought his minions from SWEB, these sheep shouldn't count. SMH

Everyone who voted for Revan, besides Gueliston, have been long-standing members of the community. Contrast that with Plagueis, where a quarter of his votes come from new members. That's totally fine too--I love seeing this tourney get so much participation--but there's no basis to claim the Revanites are cheating. I think round #5 featured less-than-desirable behavior from all sides, myself definitely included, so Ellim and I have agreed to not go around and raise votes via PM convincing.

Welcome to the forums, Gueliston.

---

I decided to take a rest from debating today, so just a summary on points I still plan to respond to:

Thursday:
- Re:Resurrection 
- Re:Force in Balance

Friday:
- Re:ILS/Meatpants @ strike team
- Power-focused argument 

On the note of power arguments:

@Meatpants: "This feels like a bit of a cop-out. You should be proving why Revan is on the same level of power as Plagueis/Caedus/Windu etc.; especially considering that these guys are comparable to the ROTS titans. Nowhere in your “Power” section have you explained why scaling above Kreia and/or Revan’s performance against Vitiate puts him on this power level intuitively."

As I prefaced with in my opening post, most debaters are already familiar with Revan's best feats and scaling. If you think Revan's not "on the same level of power as Plagueis/Caedus/Windu" already, there's like a 95% chance I'm not going to change your mind here. We would just be approaching Star Wars power-levels and the lore from two totally different starting points and end goals. My opening post was directed toward many members who already have Revan near/around "Plagueis/Caedus/Windu" level, with the hope of convincing them Revan's unique advantages pull him ahead. Toward that goal, I think I've been generally successful.

However, with the influx of many new members participating in the tourney, I agree it is now best to also expand on Revan's raw power and feats, so expect that soon.

@DarthAnt66

I. DEBUNKING REVAN

Per Theron Shan, the coalition base that held “the Imperial and Republic command fleets” were stationed “nearby” Revan. The base was within viewing distance of the Temple of Sacrifice. The coalition armies quickly established permanent perimeters much closer to the temple (i.e. at Prowler’s Trail and Verdan Swamp). The coalition armies then cleared the Training Grounds and captured Imperial Guards stationed there. The Hero of Tython fought his way up to the red line, where he met Revan’s spirit. Altogether, the coalition armies had secured territory up to within perhaps one-hundred feet of the entrance to the temple. However, the army also moved to secure footholds along the sides of the temple, as shown by the armies charging its sides in the final battle cutscenes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSGTAK-DpEQ&t=1h07m58s). This explains why Revan extended the Machine Core attack to a kilometer radius rather than just the kilometer facing the temple, too. The “command fleets” of two galactic factions likely possessed thousands, if not tens of thousands, of soldiers, Jedi, and Sith. Satele Shan's fleet alone consisted of "many thousands." The battle that waged against the temple was described as “conflict on a scale we’ve never seen.” So, there’s thousands upon thousands of enemies, including countless Force users, were well within the kilometer radius.

The distance between the Temple of Sacrifice and the coalition base looks like this:



If that’s not one kilometer, it’s certainly very close to it. If the ”command fleets” were actually stationed in the base, there’s no way Revan’s blast would ever have reached them. Republic capital ships are 500 meters in length and Sith Empire ships are almost 800. The command fleets of both galactic superpowers would obviously contain dozens of such capital ships - it’s physically impossible for them all to fit into a sphere with a one-kilometer radius. Revan’s blast would only have struck a fraction of the fleet’s overall numbers.

The Republic had a single capital ship in the fray—the Mardorus, a D-class attack cruiser. Over five hundred meters in length, the Mardorus had a wide, flat hull covered with a thick layer of armor plating, as if the vessel were hidden under a hump-shaped shell. It was supported by two Hammerheads half its size—easily identifiable by the forward bridges extending perpendicularly above and below the longer main body of the vessel—and three slightly smaller CR-12 corvettes—sleek, narrow ships equipped with battering-ram-shaped bows to run enemy blockades and prominent external afterburners to enhance speed and maneuverability. The fleet was rounded out by half a dozen BT-7 Thunderclap fighters. The latest Republic incarnation in personal attack-craft, the agile Thunderclap resembled a sideways Y, with the cockpit situated in the crook of the two smaller arms.

In contrast, Gravus’s personal Dreadnought, Exemplar, was almost eight hundred meters in length. The wedge-shaped capital ship was flanked by three claw-shaped C-class destroyers that were nearly as large as the Republic flagship. Each destroyer was supported by a complement of six Interceptors, the Empire’s agile, fang-winged answer to the Republic Thunderclap.

As you agree, Revan’s Machine Core attack was purely “kinetic,” meaning it would be done by telekinesis, not Force drain. Moreover, the attack was not indiscriminate. The description specifically states it would harm “all enemies,” not everyone. That makes sense, as all the beings closest to Revan’s position are Revanite allies, and Revan stuffed all his “most powerful supporters” within the temple to avoid being consumed by the ritual.

If the quote said “only” enemies, you might have a point. However, dealing damage to ”enemies” is not mutually exclusive with ”everyone” since enemies are included in the latter word. Revan himself said ”Everyone outside the temple will die shortly,” proving, contrary to your claim, that the attack was indiscriminate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drSAefrizyE&t=24s

Also, you are missing the point of my argument. Revan’s goal there was to indiscriminately kill everything in a one-kilometer radius, manually. If he were capable of that with some variant of Force drain like Vitiate clearly is, he would have done so on the spot instead of requiring over two minutes of charging and external power sources to amp him. This places a cap on the character far beneath Vitiate.

Revan planned, immediately after the Temple of Sacrifice fight, to battle Vitiate in an end-all, be-all showdown over the fate of the galaxy. Moreover, on the Forgotten Terrace, Revan proclaimed that the Hero of Tython--who had just led the Temple of Sacrifice assault, which Revan acknowledged in the dialogue--cannot fathom his full power: “You have no idea what I am, what I've become." / "You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become.” Thus, it’s plausible that Revan wanted to conserve energy for the bigger fight, and so he may have used the Machine Core energies to avoid wasting his powers unnecessarily. Note Revan had teleported to a higher level of the temple, with all the strike teams members trapped a level below with no way to reach him. Revan was not pressed for time nor strained when he started the channel, so there was no need to rush it or exercise much of his power. Spirit Revan levitated massive rocks for the strike team to reach and ambush Revan’s position. Revan lost control of the energies, and they “backlashed” and “overloaded” inside of him.

Again, if Revan could have cleansed the area with Force drain, he would have. The idea that he wanted to conserve his energy in such a scenario is the equivalent of saying that he didn’t want to waste energy on lifting a pebble even though with the totality of his reserves he could move a mountain - after all, you’re arguing he’s beyond razing a planetary surface, and the one-kilometer area is an infinitesimal fraction of that - which is absurd since it would have been far more beneficial for his plan to get all possible interlopers out of the way and lose only 0.1% of his power than to risk them foiling the entire operation just so he could retain that 0.1%. Revan himself seems to agree with me because his first instinct is to fight the strike team himself and then summon HK-47 to help, rather than just teleport to the top floor and begin charging the blast - if he really believed the team was struck below, he would never have bothered engaging and proceeded with his plan in peace. And if they really were stuck there, that means they as a collective can’t lift the same set of stars Revan’s spirit did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drSAefrizyE&t=3m25s

Which would then make Revan’s two losses - on the first and second floors, respectively - to them absolutely pathetic showings on his part, making the idea of him being Plagueis-tier all the more suspect. And yes, he very clearly tried to kill them, as indicated by his and HK’s comments during the fight: ”Consolation: Your deaths will serve my master’s ends.” / ”For the galaxy to survive, you must fall.” This also proves Revan viewed the strike team’s imminent destruction as necessary to his plan. The retreat to the top floor to begin channelling the blast was most likely a desperate, last-ditch attempt when he realized he couldn’t beat the strike team after losing to them twice over.

Finally, Revan doesn’t even need to conserve his energy there. The Massassi Temples are specifically designed to focus and amplify dark side energies which Revan could actively draw on to rejuvenate himself if need be, like Darth Bane and Lord Scourge have done when in the vicinity of dark side edifices. Darth Marr even stated that the dark side was the thickest of all inside the Temple of Sacrifice where Revan was, not only making it an optimal spot to draw energy from if Force reserves were running dry, but also meaning that Revan would have been even further amplified beyond simply being on Yavin IV, the intensity of which as a nexus was already stated by Satele Shan to have been on ”another level entirely” to Oricon, a planet ”immeasurably strong with the dark side.” The replenishment idea is supported by the fact that, as you state, Revan planned to have a one-on-one fight with Vitiate afterwards, and even though his plan failed, he wasn’t deterred in the slightest per his boasting on the Forgotten Terrace. This is despite the fact that, as I argued in my previous post, Revan’s willpower was stretched to its limit when he was forced to endure the backlash of the Force resonance - a sentiment you didn’t respond to despite quoting another part of the same paragraph where I made the argument, leading me to believe you don’t disagree with the idea - yet the man didn’t seem concerned at all that he was about to fight Vitiate in spite of having just exerted himself fully, leading me to believe conserving energy wasn’t at all one of his priorities - most likely because of the restorative properties of the massive quantity of dark side energy around him.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EaCRYXjkVU&t=6m18s (6:18 - 6:59)





A decade earlier, when Scourge had first arrived on Dromund Kaas as a young apprentice, he had vowed to one day set foot inside the citadel’s exclusive halls. Yet in all his years of training at the Sith Academy on Kaas City’s borders, he had never been granted the privilege. He had been one of the top students, marked by his superiors for his strength in the Force and his fanatic devotion to the ways of the Sith. But acolytes were not permitted inside the citadel; its secrets were reserved for those in direct service to the Emperor and the Dark Council.

The dark side power emanating from within the building was undeniable; he had felt the raw, crackling energy every day during his years as an acolyte. He had drawn on it, focusing his mind and spirit to channel the power through his own body to sustain him during the brutal training sessions.


Reaching out with the Force, he took closer stock of his surroundings. He was in the very heart of the forest; the trees went on for hundreds of kilometers in every direction. And as he probed the surrounding foliage for signs of life, he realized that the apparition had been right about one thing: the forests of Dxun teemed with a host of deadly and voracious beasts. Bane wondered how long it would be before one of the jungle denizens decided to figure out where he fit in on the food chain.

Yet he wasn't afraid. Even before Nadd's tomb had been hidden here, the ancient Sith had been drawn to Dxun. The Jedi had condemned it as a place of evil, but Bane recognized it for what it really was: a world infused with the power of the dark side. He felt strong here, rejuvenated... though he was smart enough to understand that the creatures prowling the wilderness would be drawing on that same power.

And then his mental explorations came across what he was look-ing for. Many kilometers away he sensed a concentration of power. He'd located the source of the dark side energy that permeated the forest around him, radiating power like a beacon emitting a homing signal.


Given Revan explicitly tried to defeat the strike team in the Temple and failed, I wouldn’t take his comments about having power greater than the player can comprehend and so on seriously - Spirit Revan, the embodiment of wisdom according to you, even described him as an extremely arrogant and obsessed figure. These sorts of boasts are a common trope in fiction among villains.

Also, don't forget that the Machine Core--which Revan planned to use to drain all life on Yavin IV and resurrect Vitiate--was soon thereafter destroyed. Rather than give up, Revan just planned to do everything himself--namely, “snuff out all life on the world by hand” and conduct complex rituals to both funnel that power into Vitiate’s spirit and create a new body for him. This would have been done in rapid time, as Revan was surrounded on all sides by the coalition armies. That all gives heavy credence to the idea Revan could indeed lay waste to a planet in a way similar to Ziost when push comes to shove.

Why would it be done in a short timeframe? What hurry is he in to destroy Vitiate right then and there? According to you, Revan believes Vitiate’s spirit is so weak he can’t even feed on the death around him, and at this point has been locked away on Yavin IV in a state on ”the brink of oblivion” ever since his physical demise on Dromund Kaas two years prior. Darth Marr stated Revan’s plan, after failing in the Temple of Sacrifice, was to escape and regroup with his Revanites, which makes sense since Revan, as one of the foremost tactical minds in the mythos, would want to maximize his chances with something he considers this important. He would try to eliminate the coalition forces first before attempting to resurrect and tango with Vitiate, especially when he now understand how dangerous they are after succeeding at thwarting his first attempt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrOJ9Sl82P4&t=3m4s

Therefore, Revan’s comment - ”If I have to snuff out every life on this world by hand to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!” - in no way necessitates the interpretation that he would be capable of literally Ziosting the moon, or even anything close to that. Any extremely driven person would say something similar: ”If I have to climb Mount Everest on foot to become famous, then so be it!”; “If I have to scour the Earth for the rest of my life to find my lost cat, then so be it!” Revan determining to kill every lifeform on Yavin IV by hand doesn’t mean it would be easily or quickly done, at all.

The dark side adept was on Palpatine’s radar: he’s the “master” of all the dark side adepts overseeing Palpatine’s Imperial Archive. However, Palpatine didn’t force anyone of note to fight Vader to the death. Palpatine didn’t for Jerec, who had powers approaching Vader’s, and he didn’t even like Jerec. Victory in combat also wasn’t Palpatine’s only consideration in an apprentice, as shown by him shooing C’baoth away to guard an archive because of his insanity. I don’t think there’s any reason to dismiss this Master Force Adept as necessarily far below anyway. Not that that really matters, though, as I agree with you that teleportation is not “going to outdo pure power in a fight if the disparity is large enough.” I never argued otherwise. However, I did argue that its a differentiating advantage against peers or even loosely comparable combatants, as Revan usage of it greatly increases his odds of winning.

If you agree with that sentiment, then we don’t have to continue on this specific point. However, you’ve yet to prove Revan is near Plagueis. Citing feats X, Y, and Z without providing any analysis on how they relate to Plagueis doesn’t constitute as evidence. As it stands, no one here has any reason to accept Revan being in Plagueis’s league in power.

Any attack that damages thousands, including countless Force users, is a powerful attack. Recall that a planetary dark nexus then concentrated into the region of a cave had energies eclipsing peak Palpatine or even Abeloth. Likewise, potent energies spread across a kilometer then funneled into an explosion within Revan should be wildly powerful. Also, Revan was more-than-likely deep into the channel, as it was only 120 seconds long in length and the strike team had to climb a series of unstable levitating rocks to reach (unless you want to go with the mechanic where spirit Revan teleports them to Revan’s location. Though, if spirit Revan--who dares not even directly confront actual Revan--can teleport giant strike teams while weighed down by the nexus you’re overly hyping up, then actual Revan’s teleportation abilities should absolutely be everything I’ve been saying and way more). Revan then had to hold his body together through sheer force of will as these concentrated energies overloaded within him.

I’m afraid I don’t recall what you’re referring to regarding some cave being more potent than Palpatine or Abeloth - citation would be nice. Anyway, we don’t know how much period damage was delivered with each pulsation, and therefore we don’t know how potent the concentrated backlash was - that was my point. If you argue that the blast - and thus the periodic pulsations as their radii were the same - would have encompassed the coalition base, then it can’t have been very much at all as we see multiple non-Force-users being fine in the aftermath. And if the blast wouldn’t have encompassed the coalition camp, we still don’t know how much damage was delivered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrOJ9Sl82P4&t=2m18s

The idea that Revan would have been far into the channel is unsupported. Teleportation or no teleportation, it realistically couldn’t have taken more than 30 seconds for the strike team to have reached the top floor with Force jumps, especially if they used the floating rocks.

The amount of energy Revan endured simply cannot be quantified - except for the fact that it was less than the full power of the blast and pushed Revan’s will to its limit.

“A small nuclear blast” is not at all necessarily beyond the kilometer explosion. The U.S. army has produced “small nuclear blasts” the equivalent to 10 to 20 tons of TNT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)).

I never claimed it was. And given that the backlash Revan endured was expressly below the theoretical one-kilometer blast - possibly far below it - it doesn’t need to be. Even a nuke with a ten-ton yield would still cause damage where “most residential buildings collapse, injuries are universal, fatalities are widespread” in a one-hundred-meter radius per Nukemap. And the door in The Old Republic: Fatal Alliance would ”easily” have withstood such an explosion but not a Jedi’s lightsaber blade - Sith lightsabers like the one Malgus wields are even more potent. And stronger nukes would still qualify as ”small nuclear blasts,” especially by Star Wars standards - the ten-ton yield is simply the smallest possible lowball.



But regardless, the backlash Revan endured is unquantifiable, and therefore his ability to tank a lightsaber hit remains unsupported. Even if he could tank it with sheer willpower, he would be immediately incapacitated. To reiterate my argument from my previous post as a reminder: “Per your own scan, Revan was ‘Stunned and unable to act’ upon being struck by the detonation. As a reminder, your premise was that ‘Revan surviving suggests his body is highly tethered to his will, not biological functions.’ So, obviously, if his body is incapable of moving or doing anything, it indicates his body briefly wasn’t responding to the dictates of his own will. You yourself noted that ‘even Revan’s will has limits,’ so we can logically conclude that Revan’s willpower was pushed to its utmost by the backlash - not totally spent but clearly briefly discombobulated in the aftermath.” And, as established, the total damage taken is probably not greatly in excess of a lightsaber blade’s energy, so if Revan were ever struck with a lightsaber and he decided to try to keep his body together through sheer will, he would be similarly ”Stunned and unable to act” as his will would be disoriented from exerting itself so monumentally, leaving him completely defenseless and vulnerable. In melee lightsaber combat, a three-second lull in defense is lethal - if Revan gets hit once, he’s going to get hit a second time and die. Therefore, Revan’s spurious ability to endure a direct lightsaber strike through sheer will, even if true, is practically useless in an actual lightsaber duel.

I’m not even sure why you’re arguing this anyway, as padawan Satele literally broke a lightsaber blade with tutaminis, and Revan scales laughably beyond her.

This is a red herring. Using Force energy to deflect the energy of a lightsaber blade is entirely different from telekinetically holding your body together as the lightsaber blade’s energy tries to rip it apart on a molecular/atomic level. Not only is bringing Satele up irrelevant in that sense, but I’m also not convinced Revan scales above her feat. She seems to be a disproportionate savant in tutaminis like Corran Horn, as indicated by the fact that her subsequent, lightsaber-energy-supercharged telekinetic blast only pulverized a relatively small portion of a cliffside - impressive, but not beyond the likes of AotC Obi-Wan Kenobi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ToztqqDcaY&t=4m

Vs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJqgdaTArM&t=7m20s

Satele’s telekinetic defenses don’t scale from her energy defenses, so even if Revan could circumvent or outright overpower the former as you allege, it doesn’t mean he can overpower or scales from the latter.

An obvious and overlooked reason as to how Revan's able to do all this is battle precognition, which anticipates attacks via "gauging an opponent's fighting style, heart rate, and there movements in combat." Revan is perhaps the greatest battle precog master in history, far outstripping "the most advanced among the Echani" in its usage. Brianna states, "Only Revan ever demonstrated such a skill in war. And even as he slaughtered us, the Echani still respected him." While Revan's able to apply battle precog to global theaters, it's far easier to use for one-on-one combat, and lesser practitioners can use battle precog to fight "several minutes in advance." Minutes!

Couple that with Revan's natural Force precognition, and his overall precog is easily among the greatest in the mythos. While Caedus' also unique Aing-Tii fighting-sight might match that, no one else has any advantages here. Revan should be anticipating amped Malgus' attacks distinctively faster than Plagueis can.

I did not address battle precognition in my previous post, but I shall now.

Put simply, battle precognition is a non-Force-user martial art/way of predicting the future. It’s therefore not inherently supernatural and cannot be some uber hax ability. Chris Avellone, whom you’ve quoted, clarifies this by stating that battle precognition is about ”calculating feints, attacks and dodges with a speed few can surpass.” It’s simply about honing your mind to an extremely high level, which even non-Force-sensitives can achieve.

"The greatest among the Echani are said to be able to read their opponent's moves so well they can predict the path of a battle several seconds, sometimes even minutes in advance, by gauging their opponent's fighting style, heart rate, and their movements in combat. In many ways, the Echani see combat as a rapid dejarik game, calculating feints, attacks, and dodges with a speed few can surpass." - Chris Avellone

Although I don’t personally like using author quotes as they are not canon, but I’m merely posting the full context you’ve omitted (ironic, since you dismiss the Battle for Naboo quote on the basis that it may an alternate continuity, but then liberally cite author quotes for pro-Revan arguments, which are not part of any continuity). But if you want to go with Avellone in spite of this, all battle precognition is is heightened mental clarity which allows you to do calculations in your head about your opponent’s moves very quickly. Given this, I think Darth Tenebrous would be a far greater practitioner of the art than Revan could ever hope to be. Biths’ brains’ computational power is beyond any other species in the lore, especially humans’, and Tenebrous was an outlier even among his species. His ability to calculate the future was so advanced that he literally removed his own ability to sense the future through the Force because he deemed it superfluous compared to his sheer intellect.

So, even as he lay gasping around the icy barbs that pierced his lung, Tenebrous smiled. Even with the jerking and convulsing in his body's last reflexive rebellion against the fall of eternal night, even as organ systems shut down one by one to maintain the last shreds of light and life within the vast intricacies of his brain - massive beyond even those of other Biths, a people justly legendary for their intellectual prowess - Tenebrous found himself particularly enjoying the incremental disappearance of his own midi-chlorians.


Like many Sith before him, he had turned his powers toward knowledge of the future. But unlike any Sith before him he had the enormous brain of his people, which combined sheer brute processing power with a level of analytic precision simply beyond the capacity of any other species. The future was always in motion, and while other Sith struggled to foresee the faintest, least specific hints of what was to come, Tenebrous had no need to see the future.

He could calculate it.


Tenebrous created a retrovirus that could infect midi-chlorians.

Midi-chlorians were, after all, merely symbiotic organelles that contribute to the organic processes of the living cells they inhabit. Due to their role in Force interactions, altering them was singularly challenging - they had an unsettling tendency to spontaneously express unexpected and unfortunate side effects - but by applying the full analytic prowess of his vast Bith brain and the preternatural power of his Bith senses to detect and resolve sub-microscopic structure, he eventually succeeded in creating a retrovirus that would transform normal midi-chlorians into long-lived maxi-chlorians.

But that was only the beginning.

With the patient, painstaking attention to the slightest, most insignificant detail that was his hallmark, Tenebrous had encoded his custom retrovirus with his most potent weapon: his own consciousness. Once completed, Tenebrous had released the virus into his own bloodstream. It had spread throughout his body, infecting midi-chlorians in every one of his cells with gratifying alacrity. Not all his midi-chlorians, though, as the infected maxi-chlorians no longer fully functioned; to infect them all would have cut off his own connection to the Force. A partial severance of this connection was a necessary sacrifice, however, and through an extended process of trial and error, he was able to fine-tune the effect and confine it to the one sector of his Force powers he no longer needed - his ability to sense the motion of the future.

Of what possible use was the ability to see a future he already knew?


Not only that, but your quote doesn’t even confirm Revan knows battle precognition; Brianna says ”Only Revan demonstrated such skill in war,” referring to the ability to ”predict the paths of wars.” The overlooked part is that nowhere does she state Revan did this via battle precognition, only that he did match the Echani ability to predict the paths of wars, but this can be done through simple Force farsight.

Moreover, battle precognition can simply be overcome via superior Force augmentation. The Echani-trained Burr Danid had ”Perfect technique” with ”flawless” attacks and defense, ”yet Vader toyed with him as if he were a child.” Darth Bane went toe-to-toe with an Echani who was also a Jedi Master who had ”spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass,” “the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni,” “the greatest duelist of her time,”; and ”achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master”; and ”transformed herself into a living weapon” by ”Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat”; and very likely a practitioner of battle precognition as she was an Echani with ”Her reactions were so fast, her combat instincts so pure, that she was able to sense and anticipate what he was going to do even as it happened, then use his attacks to her own advantage.”; and had allegedly killed as many Sith Lords in the New Sith Wars as the thought bomb, meaning almost 2,000; while her combat abilities were ”enhanced” by battle meditation from a Jedi Master comparable to Bane himself in power; and without that battle meditation, she would still have been steamrolled by Bane along with her allies. Again, even if Revan possesses battle precognition, it still comes down to proving he is anywhere near Plagueis’s tier in power, which you haven’t done.















Master Raskta Lsu, an Echani, sat at the controls of her ship. She had the alabaster skin, pure white hair, and silver eyes common to all her species. She was almost as tall as Johun, with the muscles and physique one would expect in a species that valued physical combat as the highest form of art and personal expression. Named in honor of the legendary Echani warrior Raskta Fenni, acclaimed by many to be the greatest duelist of her time, Master Raskta had spent her life honing her martial skills so that she could one day equal, and even surpass, her namesake.

She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.

Now tasked with training apprentices in the forms of lightsaber combat, Raskta had been part of the campaign on Ruusan. Wielding a blue-bladed lightsaber in each hand, and shunning any form of armor, she was a terrifying figure to behold on the battlefield. Johun vividly remembered her carving great swaths of destruction through the heart of the enemy ranks, leaving a litter of bodies in her wake. It was said that, by the end of the war, as many Sith Lords had fallen under her twin blades as had been killed by the thought bomb.


It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror’s battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian’s amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. Yet even with their enhanced abilities, he wondered if they would survive the coming battle.


Baskta’s mastery of her blades was unparalleled, but even with her talents augmented by Worror’s battle meditation she wasn’t able to land a telling blow on such a small target through Bane’s defenses. Still, the ferocity of her new strategy had turned the momentum in her favor … or so Farfalla thought.

Bane continued his retreat, circling away from Raskta’s blades, then suddenly turned and ran straight toward the unarmed Ithorian standing just inside the door of the room.

Battle meditation required Master Worror’s complete focus; there was no chance for him to mount any type of defense. If Bane cut him down, the others would lose the only advantage that gave them any chance of surviving the encounter.

At the end of the first fight, the Machine Core was "rendered critically unstable" and it became "a violent maelstrom of twisted force essence, indiscriminately stripping the life force from everything in the vicinity.  The Machine Core had already been "primed inside the temple" to "eradicate all living things on the moon." All Revan had to do was "fire"/"activate" it, which matches the launch trailer seemingly show Revan priming the Machine Core at an earlier time (link). These planetary-ravaging energies then turned to violently strip away the life force of just the immediate vicinity. This attack should be far more concentrated and powerful than the kilometer explosion. Nevertheless, Revan used a Force bubble to still withstand and survive it, even ripping out Force attacks as it happened.

What? ”everything in the vicinity” would include the strike team members, including the non-Force-sensitives. As Revan’s channel had been broken at that point, his life force would have been drained the same amount as everyone else’s - an amount not enough to kill even non-Force-sensitives, it seems. He clearly didn’t endure a planetary drain.

(Note: For those still getting the timeline mixed up, Satele, Marr, etc. weren't apart of the strike team that destroyed the Machine Core. The strike team was made up of "a large strike team of elite heroes" handpicked by the Hero, and all of them besides the Hero could have died. Moreover, spirit Revan was literally resurrecting strike team members anyway--"target has been recently resurrected by an outside force"--so even the Hero could have died and been resurrected.).

None of them died. They all team up again to fight some of the Six Gods.

And resurrecting them like that is simply a matter of pulling their spirits back from the Netherworld in the brief period when their consciousness is still intact. It has been replicated ad nauseam by massively pre-prime Plagueis. This also serves as a secondary rebuttal to the idea Plagueis didn’t return from the dead and reanimate his body - he clearly had the willpower to pull spirits back from the Netherworld repeatedly; it was simply a matter of lacking a sufficient anchor and already having expended so much of his energy and will to healing from Sidious’s lightning.

On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die.

Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.


Moreover, despite the fact that Venamis’s organs eventually gave out and Plagueis was said to have granted him ”everlasting death,” Plagueis did ultimately manage to revive him yet again nine years later, repairing his organs and investing life into him in spite of his spirit having long since dissolved into the void and his midi-chlorians having faded. Not only does this entail immense improvement on Plagueis’s part since the unbalancing, resurrecting Venamis for the first time, and attempting contact with every life-form in the galaxy, but it also further vindicates the idea he could have reanimated his body had the circumstances been more ideal, and gives precedent to him having the ability to repair organs and thus heal from Sidious’s lightning. It also indicates Plagueis can create entirely new midi-chlorians from scratch, already confirmed by Plagueis increasing his midi-chlorian count, but it gives such a feat a timeframe: within 20 hours, he can create enough new midi-chlorians to produce enough Living Force energy to be a sufficient tether for a spirit.

Plagueis focused his attention on the vat in front of him where the remains of the Bith Sith Lord, Darth Venamis, floated in a semitransparent bath of preserving fluid. Venamis’s corpse was still animated and twitching spasmodically with the last dregs of life that Plagueis invested in it, only to snatch it away again. He had been working for almost twenty uninterrupted hours on this particular project with limited success, and the notification from his droid signified a welcome diversion.


“Between Lord Sidious and myself.” Plagueis returned his attention to the Bith in the vat before him, although his thoughts were now far away from the resurrected Venamis. “The Zabrak’s assassination mission inside the prison is of great interest to me. As you know, I have extended a great deal of latitude to Lord Sidious in the past.”

Reaching out with the dark side, Plagueis watched in a distracted way as Venamis’s lifeless face stirred in the viscous chemical soup, one eye opening and rolling up to gaze at him. Then he continued. “Especially now, as we approach the pivotal moment in our plans for Palpatine’s impending chancellorship, I find his increasing tendency toward self-reliance to be disturbing. Of course the time will come when I will let him know that I was the one who provided Iram Radique with the fully functional geological compressor that he needed—and thus allowed Maul to complete his mission. But the moment of revelation is not yet ripe.”


The implications of this will be dealt in a later post, as will rebuttals to all the anti-Plagueis arguments, including offensive and defensive midi-chlorian manipulation, his status as Sidious’s rival, the TPM supremacy quotes, and so on.

II. DARTH BANE’S ORBALISK FEAT

Unlike with a lightsaber blade, orbalisks absorb Force energy. The text goes into heavy detail describing them absorbing exorbitant amounts of Bane’s energies: “The creatures absorbed the power, hungrily devouring it until they became so engorged that the soft, pliant flesh of their underbellies had began to swell.” / “But burrowing deeper hadn't stopped the creatures from feasting on the electricity coursing through Bane's frying innards. They'd continued to expand until they had begun to pop, rupturing like overfilled balloons pinched beneath the hard shells.”

Yes, “some” of the orbalisks died: “Several of the parasites on his chest and stomach hadn't survived, their brown shells turned black and brittle by the lightning's electrical charge.” Zannah noted that all the dead orbalisks have been turned black by the lightning’s charge. However, the text stated earlier that the orbalisks were dying because they were rupturing with Force energy. These dead orbalisks, now vulnerable through the rupture point, must have then been charred with the lightning. Ergo, Bane’s lightning was not directly overpowering the orbalisks in a way the lightsaber couldn’t.

With so much of the energy then being absorbed by the orbalisks, and with many/most of the orbalisks surviving showing their absorbing capabilities weren’t even fully maxed out, there’s no way to claim the remaining energy necessitated Bane holding himself together through sheer will. The only lightning that went into Bane was likely through the areas without the orbalisks (which is rather small) and where “some” of the orbalisks died. Everywhere else, which is most of his body, the orbalisks would have covered for him. Also, by definition, the many surviving orbalisks may have helped regenerate some of Bane’s internal tissue damage.

Your second point actually reinforces my argument: only the dead orbalisks had blackened and brittle shells. This proves that the orbalisks were only absorbing the lightning that passed through them individually, otherwise the surrounding orbalisks would have absorbed the excess energy from their fellows that were about to rupture. This means that, since Bane’s head was exposed (I know the illustration in The Essential Reader’s Companion depicts otherwise, but artwork frequently gets things about Bane such as his lightsaber hilt being straight, when it is actually curved, wrong, and the actual stories themselves take priority anyway), that area would have taken the full brunt of the lightning, and so too did the spots where the orbalisks had died and couldn’t devour any more of the lightning. Bane would thus have had to hold those areas of his body together through sheer will, even if the orbalisks were absorbing the energy from other parts of his body.

He spun back to the fight to see that the Echani Weapons Master had taken the offensive, sending quick flicks of her blue blades toward Bane's unprotected face - the only spot on his body seemingly not covered by the impenetrable shells. Remarkably, Bane was giving ground.


However, I don’t understand the rest of the argument. How does the fact that some of the orbalisks were dead mean that their shells would be more vulnerable to the lightning? The molecular composition of the shells didn’t change - unless you want to argue that the orbalisks ruptured so violently and with so much force they actually caused significant damage to lightsaber-resistant material and compromised their structural integrity. But if that were the case, then the explosions would also have come into contact with Bane’s skin. A detonation forceful enough to majorly damage lightsaber-resistant material would have shredded a human’s unprotected body, but since Bane’s body wasn’t riddled with holes, we can conclude he must have telekinetically held his flesh together and prevented it from being torn asunder by the orbalisks rupturing. Another explanation is that the lightning would have still been coursing through the spots where the orbalisks had died, and since the dead orbalisks couldn’t absorb its energy, it was allowed to flow unmitigated through the shells and thus was able to reduce them brittle. The third explanation is the simplest: the fact that only select orbalisks died indicates the lightning more potent in those spots than others, which explains why the shells only in those areas turned brittle and not anywhere else. Whichever way you spin this feat - lightning reducing lightsaber-resistant material brittle or orbalisks exploding with enough power to greatly damage lightsaber-resistant material - it’s utterly insane for Bane and clearly comparable to Revan’s feat, even if loosely.

Also, the idea that the orbalisks were simultaneously healing Bane is false because they were ”chewing through muscles, tendons, and even bone,” clearly causing more harm than good.

Bump (all my posts coming later today)

THE BROTHERHOOD OF DARKNESS

In Dark Forces 2 Kyle Katarn pitted himself against the majority of Jerec’s cadre of Dark Jedi. Katarn proved himself an extremely talented prodigy, being new to the lightsaber and a neophyte with no formal training. These Dark Jedi were particularly impressive in their own right, and I will detail some of their accolades and feats from which Kyle scales from.

MAW

"To the one called Maw: a bitter individual that loathes all and holds loyalty to few. A strong and formidable foe. For every cord of muscle, there is hatred. It is this hate that keeps his aging body strong." - Qu Rahn



Maw lost the lower half of his body in a duel with Qu Rahn, but survived the encounter. His willpower was such that he survived bisection and learnt to use the Dark Side to levitate himself permanently. This use of the Force even caused loose objects nearby to orbit him, “In addition to holding the Jedi up off the deck, the Force exerted its influence over other objects as well, including nuts, bolts, pebbles, a ration bar, and various bits of wire. All of which orbited the half-man's body as if he were the sun and they were his planets.” (Source: DF: JK)



Additionally, Maw was able to stave off the effects of dark side degradation via his hate of others. He was over seven decades old, but appeared to be around thirty years old. This, combined with his levitation points to extremely impressive willpower and focus.

SARISS

”Out of all the Dark Jedi I have met, Sariss is the one I can say... I fear. Powerful, strong in both the physical and mental arenas of the Force, she is a master, a perfectionist, quiet and reserved.” - Qu Rahn

Sariss resisted a mental attack from Kyle Katarn called “darkshear”, a dark side ability; and she was equally capable of mentally attacking opponents as well. She was also “one of the most powerful of the seven Dark Jedi” (Source: DF2 Game Manual). Ultimately, Kyle killed her in single combat.

BOC

The Rebel threw the rocks as hard as she could - but to no avail. The missiles exploded as the sabers touched them and hurled red-hot bits of rock in every direction. Jan staggered and fell over backward as a bolt of energy hit her mind. The rock attack hadn't inflicted any damage, but it did buy some time. Kyle took advantage of the opportunity by summoning the Force, forging a spear of midnight black, and hurling it toward his opponent's chest.

Kyle was also able to one-shot Boc with the Force, suggesting that he tore through his opponent’s passive Force barrier. It’s unlikely that Boc didn’t have one up or couldn’t react, he was in combat. Consider also that distracted one-shots aren’t exactly common.

Although Kyle was losing the actual lightsaber duel, it’s only because of his relative inexperience dealing with an opponent with two lightsabers; it’s similar to the Bane and Kas’im dynamic: Bane was more powerful, but Kas’im was beating him in the duel because Bane had no experience dealing with an opponent with two blades.

---

Once assembled, the Dark Army was woefully small. Less than two thousand Jedi compared to ten times that number that had followed Kaan into the first few battles. Still, though small they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead, having been overpowered by Hoth and the Army of Light. The air hummed with barely controlled energy. Kaan stood and the chambers fell silent. His eyes roamed the audience, found those he knew to be leaders, and claimed their minds.

"Greetings, brethren… and welcome to darkness. Our great and noble cause has come to an end. The forces who favor anarchy over structure have won. For what is this 'democracy' they speak of if not the absence of order? Of reason? Surely the strong should rule - for that is nature's way.

"But we must forget what could have been - and focus on what is. Defeat looms only hours away and with it, the loss of all we had hoped for. I ask that you join me in one last task. The creation of a weapon so powerful that when it is detonated, the victors shall become the vanquished and be swept from the pages of history."

Kaan was a skilled orator and knew when to stop. The chambers fell silent. LaTor allowed the silence to build… and broke it with the traditional salute. "Kaan rules!"

The answer came like a thunder and echoed off the chamber walls. "Kaan rules!"

And so the decision was made to place death before life. More than a thousand highly trained minds were focused on a single task. First came the creation of a mental construct that was analogous to a bomb casting. A container in which energy could be stored. Then came the process of turning the Force inside out, of tapping the darkness within and channeling that energy into the newly created vessel.

Time hung suspended, the air crackled with barely suppressed energy, and three of the Jedi died, their minds overcome by the violence of the process. Others went insane, rose with weapons drawn, and were executed by the master-at-arms.

Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. For LaTor was strong, very strong, and Kyle was impressed by the power resident in the dark side. The power and relative ease of access… a temptation for anyone with the necessary talent.

Finally, their robes soaked with sweat and their hearts beating like trip hammers, the Brotherhood was done. The thought bomb was complete. The time had come to venture out into the sunlight, to embrace the victors and drag them into hell.


Kyle experienced a spiritual journey, flow-walking into the past and witnessing the creation of the Thought Bomb. It’s here that Kyle is utterly dwarfed, he muses that he might have died from just sensing the Thought Bomb had he not been connected to the Sith spirits.

So Kyle is significantly weaker than the vast majority of the Sith adepts who were present for the creation of the Thought Bomb. All of these were the creme de la creme of the Brotherhood as well “For these were the survivors, the beings so skilled at mental-physical combat that seven hard-fought battles had not only failed to bring them down but served to hone their skills. Tal knew that they were - and would always be - dangerous.” (DF: JK)

Of those 2000 adepts, 100 of them were “Dark Lords” who were even more powerful, “There were now a hundred or more Dark Lords following Kaan” (PoD). However, the Korriban students were the strongest in the Brotherhood, more powerful than the Dark Lords: "They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan." (PoD) So even the lowliest students of the academy were more powerful than half the Dark Lords, indicating that the academy’s best students were elites within the brotherhood.

Githany, a student at the academy was a step above all the students (barring Sirak), and had a reputation for defeating any challengers in the dueling ring “In only a few weeks she'd already developed a reputation for crushing those who got in her way.” (PoD) However, even she was outmatched by Sirak, the top student in the academy, “She gave him a sly smile. "Still don't trust me? Good. You shouldn't. I'm only in this for myself. I can't defeat Sirak on my own. He's too strong.” (PoD); "He may not be the Sith'ari, but he's still too strong for you. You can't face him in the dueling ring, Githany. I've studied him; I know how good he is. You can't beat him." (PoD). Sirak used Form VII, “At one moment Sirak seemed to be using the jabs and thrusts of Vaapad, the most aggressive and direct of the seven traditional forms.” (PoD)





This makes him a master of all seven forms of lightsaber combat in addition to being a high-level master in at least two of them. He could also switch between forms seamlessly as well, and was undefeated in the dueling ring. It should be noted that dueling prowess is most strongly affected by one’s strength in the Force, “the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation.” (PoD). So the gaps in dueling are also reflective of gaps in Force power.

QORDIS

A pair of figures waited in the center of the slaughter, one human and the other Twi'lek. He recognized them despite the darkness: Qordis and Kopecz, two of the more powerful Sith Lords. Once they had been bitter rivals, but now they served together in Kaan's Brotherhood. He approached them quickly, smiling.

Lord Qordis is one of the more powerful Sith in Kaan’s Brotherhood of Darkness, and an “exalted Master” in charge of the Korriban academy, where only the students with the potential to be Sith masters attended. Qordis was more powerful than Sirak “Qordis shrugged. "Sirak is the strongest student at the Academy. For now. Perhaps in time he will surpass Kas'im and me and all the other Sith Lords. Perhaps not."” (PoD). He was also powerful enough to return as a Sith spirit.

---

It takes an exponential difference in power to rip through a Force user’s prepared Force barrier. Consider that despite being considerably more powerful than Maul, and capable of taking on Maul and Savage simultaneously in a lightsaber duel and maintain the advantage, Sidious could not outright tear through Maul’s barrier.

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

[...]

“Remember the first and only reality of the Sith,” Sidious said. “There can only be two, and you are no longer my apprentice. You have been replaced.”

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.

Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor. Then Sidious seized his former apprentice with the Force, hurling him against the wall. Maul’s vision swam. He tried to get up, but realized he was already in the air, held aloft by the Force. Sidious slammed him into the floor. Then Maul was off the ground again, legs kicking for purchase in empty air. He could taste blood in his mouth. His head hit the wall with a sickening crunch.


In the first instance, Sidious tricked Maul into giving ground, and “pounced” on the opening it created as a result, allowing him to slam Maul against the wall with the Force. Remember that Sidious’ style is credited as being “shrouded in mystery” and deliberately meant to draw people into making mistakes that he could exploit.

In the second instance, Sidious chooses to attack Maul and disarm him before ragdolling him.

Remember that legitimate “ragdolls” - when one tears through the barrier of another - are quite rare, most of the examples we tend to think about have surrounding context: Kenobi didn’t have his barrier up when he got ragdolled on the IH; Starkiller whittled down Vader until he was shaking and injured deeply by lightsaber slashes three times before he was ragdolled etc. Tearing through someone’s barrier requires you to be exponentially more powerful. Sidious wouldn’t be able to ragdoll a prepared Maul, or Dooku, or Anakin. Thus, being able to do that to someone’s barrier requires you to be magnitudes above them in power.




The Umbaran Shadow Assassins were the first to develop Force barriers, and found that they were disproportionately strong when one attempted to tear through it, requiring several individuals all attacking in concert, which reinforces the idea that one must be magnitudes stronger to tear through someone’s barrier outright.

---

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there.


Bane outright tore through Qordis’ defences, indicating Bane was exponentially more powerful than Qordis well before his prime. By extension, that means Bane is magnitudes upon magnitudes above Jerec’s Dark Jedi and Neophyte Kyle Katarn as of PoD, but it doesn’t end there.

---





The air around her began to crackle and grow hot as she gathered herself for the killing blow. Scourge felt the energy building inside her, and he knew he would be powerless to stop it. Nyriss was too powerful; her command of the dark side was too strong.

“Gaze upon me and see your doom!” she declared. “I am Darth Nyriss, Lord of the Sith. I am the conqueror of Drezzi, the destroyer of Melldia, and a member of the Dark Council!”

Scourge braced himself for the end.

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.

Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.

“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”

Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.


Force lightning and barriers are not inherently difficult abilities, whereas tutaminis is. It would then logically follow that the one on the defense in a tutaminis-lightning lock is always at a disadvantage. Force barriers, on the other hand, are disproportionately hard to break. Thus, in a telekinetic confrontation, the disadvantaged person is conversely the one on the offensive. Bane ripping through Qordis’ telekinetic barrier was comparatively a harder task than Revan ripping through Nyriss’s energy barrier as far as the abilities themselves were concerned, and as such there’s a larger gap between himself and Qordis compared to the gap between Revan and Nyriss; meaning Bane could turn Qordis to ash with less effort than Revan did to Nyriss. That’s not even factoring in his growth from PoD to DoE.

DarthAnt66 wrote:(2) Revan "easily" summoned the energies needed to instantly incinerate Darth Nyriss with Force lightning. Nyriss had defeated Meetra Surik faster than Scourge could recover from a stumble. Meetra had defeated Kreia, amped by a "geyser of dark side energy" at the heart of the Malachor V nexus. Darth Sion also foresaw that Meetra "shall surpass her power." A non-empowered Kreia had dominated and drained three elite Jedi Council masters. Revan did this 312 years pre-prime.

I’m not convinced Nyriss scales above the Exile or Kreia from Kotor 2. Meetra was weakened by the nexus of Dromund Kaas when Nyriss defeated her. Yes, Malachor’s nexus is stated to be incredibly powerful, while Dromund Kaas isn't so explicitly, but this merely makes it ambiguous, not outright confirmation that Malachor is stronger than Kaas. I’d like conclusive evidence.

KAAN

Lord Kaan could telepathically summon the Brotherhood of Darkness from across the galaxy, which comprised of 20,000 Sith Lords in total. He could also influence the Sith of his brotherhood in a more direct way, like when he forced them out of the firestorm ritual or when he persuaded them to participate in the Thought Bomb. All of these Sith Lords were highly trained, “More than a thousand highly trained minds were focused on a single task.” (DF: JK); and would no doubt have mental training to resist telepathic influence as they were “so skilled at mental-physical combat.” (DJ: JK). There’s also no reason to believe that that the feat is unimpressive because the Sith were weak-willed - they included Lord Kopecz, a Sith “well regarded by the Jedi of that period” which includes Lords Hoth and Farfalla (Star Wars Fact File 92) and was strong-willed enough to fight “valiantly” against Farfalla despite having two spears and several arrows stuck in his body.

He lifted his voice so that it carried throughout the camp, his words booming across the tented landscape. "Now that you are here, the Brotherhood of Darkness is at last whole!"

The troops in camp paused and looked up at him. A few rose expectantly to their feet. There was fire in that single bold statement; it rekindled hope from the damp ashes of their fatigue and despair.

"The full power of the Sith Lords is now united here on Ruusan," he continued, projecting his words to even the most distant of his followers. Reaching out to them with the undeniable power of the Force, he fed them, rejuvenated them, and filled their hollow spirits. "We are strong. Stronger than the Jedi. We are the champions of the dark side, and we will crush Lord Hoth and his servants of light!"

A great shout roared up from his troops. Those who were seated leapt to their feet. Those who were standing thrust their fists up in the air. The echo of their cheers shook the camp like a groundquake.

Githany felt it as surely as the rest of the troops. It was more than just the words. It was the way he said them. All her doubts and fears simply vanished, crushed by the weight of that single brief speech. It was as if she had been compelled to obey by a power greater than herself.


Kaan could reinvigorate his troops and Sith Lords, all their “doubts and fears simply vanished… compelled to obey by a power greater than herself [Githany and the others]” after a crushing defeat by the Jedi in battle. His hold over them was incredibly strong, capable of purging all their “doubts and fears” with a single speech. “Most of the Sith and Jedi allies on both sides were utterly destroyed” by the firestorm ritual that was performed after this (Star Wars Fact File 134) and the remaining were 2000 in number, so the number Kaan “compelled to obey” was at least 4000. He also outright dominated the minds of all the 100 Dark Lords in the Thought Bomb cave.

Lord Kaan knew he was no match for Bane, either physically or through the power of the Force. Yet he wasn't about to surrender so easily. Not while he still had cunning, guile, and his unique talents of persuasion on his side.

"Do you really believe the others will follow you?" he asked, pushing out with the Force to plant the first seeds of doubt in his rival's mind. "They are still wary of you after your last ritual."

A flicker of uncertainty passed across Bane's hard features. Kaan increased the pressure of his invisible compulsions and continued to speak. "The Brotherhood is about equality, not servitude. Asking the others to bow down before you will only drive them away - or turn them against you."

He rose from his chair as Bane nervously stroked his chin, weighing the arguments. "How do you think the others will react when I tell them how you orchestrated the arrival of the Jedi reinforcements?"

Bane's dark eyes flashed angrily, and his hand dropped to the hilt of his lightsaber.

"Killing me won't keep your secret," Kaan warned him. "The others know you weren't at the battle when Farfalla's ships arrived. More than a few of them probably already suspect you of betraying them."

Kaan pushed even harder with the Force, trying to twist and warp Bane's very thoughts. "You may be the strongest among us, but you can't defeat us all. Not by yourself, Bane."

The big man staggered and clutched at his head. He stumbled over to the chair and collapsed in it, the wood groaning under his massive frame. He hunched forward, hands pressing hard on his temples.

"You're right," he said through tightly clenched teeth. "You're right."

"There's still hope, though," Kaan said, stepping over and placing a reassuring hand on Bane's broad shoulder. "Follow me and I will keep the others from turning against you. Join us in the Brotherhood!"

Bane nodded slowly, then turned his head to stare up at Kaan with a desperate, hopeless expression in his eyes. "What about the Jedi? What about their gunships?"

Kaan stood, slowly releasing his mental hold over the other man. "We can nullify their air superiority by retreating into the caves," he said. "I know General Hoth; he will follow us. And there we will unleash the thought bomb against them."

Bane leapt to his feet eagerly. Kaan was pleased to see that his powers of Force persuasion were as strong as ever. Even Bane was not immune to his manipulations. "I will do as you say, Lord Kaan!" he exclaimed. "Together we will destroy the Jedi!"

"Peace, Bane," Kaan urged, extending tendrils of soothing calm. He had nullified the threat to his position that Bane represented, but he knew the effect was only temporary. In time Bane's hostility would return, as would his dreams of usurping the mantle of leadership. Kaan needed to find a more permanent solution.

"Unfortunately," he said, "there are still ... complications."

"Complications?"

"I can convince the rest of the Brotherhood to forgive your treasonous acts, but only after the Jedi are destroyed. Until then, you will have to remain hidden from the others."

The confused and hurt expression on Bane's face was pitiful, but Kaan was used to eliciting such naked emotion in those he manipulated.

"I will lead the Brotherhood to the caves," he explained. "I am strong enough to join their minds and unleash the power of the thought bomb without your help. You stay here in the tent until nightfall, then sneak out of the camp. Stay safely out of view until the deed is done."

"And once the Jedi are destroyed you will return for me?"

"Yes," Kaan promised, his voice solemn. "Once the Jedi are gone, I will return for you with the full strength of the Brotherhood!' That much, at least, was truth. He would leave nothing to chance; he wouldn't underestimate his opponent anymore. Bane had already survived one assassination attempt. This time he would unleash the full numbers of his followers against his foe.

"I will do as you command, Lord Kaan," Bane replied, dropping to one knee and bowing his head. Kaan turned and marched out into the camp, heading for his own tent where the pages containing the ritual of the thought bomb were hidden away.

Bane stayed in the position of supplication until the Dark Lord was well out of sight, then stood up and brushed the dirt from his knees with a grim scowl. He had felt Kaan's efforts to dominate his mind, but they had had no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar. Yet he had seized on the opportunity and delivered a performance worthy of the greatest dramatist on Alderaan.


Bane resisted Kaan’s attempt to “dominate his mind”, describing the attempt as having “no more effect than a rusted knife scraping against the hide plates of a Halurian ice-boar.” So, not only was Kaan unable to dominate Bane’s mind, he had failed to make any impact whatsoever, Bane easily resisted it. Kaan also recognised that he was “no match” for Bane physically or in the Force. Keep in mind that Kaan was also powerful enough to crush Githany “like a bug” with the Force, who’s well above all the students at the Korriban academy who are all better than the Dark Lords who comprised the elite of the Brotherhood of Darkness, making Kaan incredibly more powerful than any of them.

So, we get:

PoD Bane >>>>>>> Qordis >>>>>> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> Kyle Katarn >>> Boc / Sariss / Maw

Also note that Kaan’s spirit was powerful enough to retain his individuality and escape the Thought Bomb as well:

LIGHTNING

He didn't stay down, however. He sprang back to his feet, simultaneously drawing his lightsaber with his right hand as he sent a blast of lightning out from the fingertips of his left. The violet bolts should have incinerated all four of his targets on the balcony, yet again the strange power interfering with his ability to draw upon the Force hindered his efforts.


This Bane was so weakened that he was in no shape to battle Zannah and “even too tired to come up with a lie to explain his absence without raising her suspicions.” (DoE); yet he was still capable of incinerating four people seemingly casually. The only reason he didn’t was because his powers were hindered by the Force suppression technique employed by the Huntress, but his standard strength level, even in his fatigued condition, is enough to ash four mercenaries. Compare this to Nyriss, whose lightning was only capable of leaving two guards as charred corpses:

A burst of purple lightning arced down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks.

Scourge took a step back, knowing exactly who had been responsible for unleashing the fury of the dark side against the hapless guards.

Nyriss made her way slowly down the stairs, the outspread fingers of her left hand still crackling with electricity. In her right hand she held her lightsaber, the blade humming softly. By the time she reached the bottom, Meetra had emerged from the nearby cell.


So we have a tired Bane in no shape to fight Zannah and too tired to make a plausible excuse for his absence being able to casually incinerate four people compared to Nyriss’ lightning only capable of charring two guards while on an extremely potent dark side nexus.

DUELING

Bane is an extremely talented lightsaber prodigy. In two years he went from a neophyte with no training in lightsaber combat to being more than a match for Kas’im, Lord Kaan and Qordis, the most powerful members of the Dark Brotherhood.

KORRIBAN STUDENTS: Each one of the students at the Korriban academy had the potential to become Sith Masters, and most had been training since childhood, since it took many years to actually be accepted into the Korriban academy (Link). Since they had to be accepted from a previous academy typically, most of these would be trained as Umbaran Shadow Assassins or Marauders, so they’re clearly highly trained and possess incredible skillsets. In addition, they’re also more powerful than the Dark Lords of the brotherhood, making them well beyond average Force users for the most part.

GITHANY: As cited above, Githany “crushed” all her opponents in the dueling ring, making her a clear superior to all the students bar Sirak.

SIRAK: Sirak is the academy’s top student (Link). I’ve already shown above that Githany believed Sirak would have destroyed her. Sirak had never lost a match, was a high level master of multiple forms, practionicer of Form VII and could switch between multiple forms seamlessly.

STUDENT BANE: In their second confrontation, Bane was capable of finishing the fight in a few moves, but decided to toy with Sirak instead (Link).

KAS’IM: When Kas’im duels with Bane on Lehon, he notices that Bane had improved since they last sparred, and it’s implied Bane would not have survived Kas’im’s opening attack had he not grown in power as a result of unlocking the secrets in Darth Revan’s holocron (Link). This suggests that Kas’im would have been able to blitz the Bane who toyed with Sirak.

DARTH BANE: It becomes clear to Kas’im that Bane is simply too strong in the Force for him to win the duel (Link). Kas’im only ended up beginning to win the duel because of a unique weakness he’d developed in all his students: he had never given them any experience in how to deal with Jar’Kai. So Bane is the superior swordsman.

DARTH BANE (DYNASTY OF EVIL): In Rule of Two, Bane attempts to defend himself against the swarm of orbalisks attacking him, but deems it impossible, “But there were too many to keep them all at bay; it was like trying to ward off raindrops in a storm.” (RoT)



Bane grew daily from the orbalisks. Yet by DoE, despite having lost the orbalisks, he was still stronger than he had ever been with them. There are three key pieces of evidence for this. Firstly, in their final duel, Zannah notes that Bane was faster than she ever could have imagined, and she’s seen Bane’s berserker speed up close (Link). The second is that she manages to hold her ground against his Orbalisk-fueled rage, whereas in their final duel his regular attacks cause her to stagger and lose balance (Link). Finally, Bane was able to initiate the ritual of Essence Transfer despite feeling the most intense pain he’d ever felt in his life that went beyond physical pain; compared to Rule of Two where he collapses from lesser pain (Link). This covers augmentation (speed and strength) and willpower. Thus, all these examples demonstrate that DoE Bane is superior to his Orbalisk-encrusted RoT self.

The final icing on the cake is that Bane did end up warding off raindrops in a storm (Link). In fact, he does it for ten minutes casually. Comparing this to his remarks in RoT, it’s clear that his defensive capabilities are well and far beyond his previous incarnations.

DoE Bane >> Orbalisk Bane >> non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>>>> Qordis >>>> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> Kyle Katarn >>> Boc / Sariss / Maw.

CONCLUSION

It’s important to note that the point of this post has not been to necessarily argue that Bane’s feats are better than Revan’s, but to press the Revan team to prove how Revan’s feats are better than Plagueis’. In fact, I don’t see why Revan’s feats are necessarily better than Bane’s regardless. Because Revan’s feats are either difficult or impossible to compare to his competitors in most cases, it’s baseless to argue he’s more powerful than Plagueis on that presumption. Just look at the comparison I talked about was a weakened Bane having a better lightning feat than Nyriss on a potent Dark Side nexus; PoD Bane tearing through Qordis’ barrier being more a more difficult task than Revan’s defeat of Nyriss; PoD Bane easily resisting the TP that could influence thousands of highly trained and mentally capable Sith Lords, RoT Bane enduring his own orbalisk-killing lightning (already addressed by Azronger), etc.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Besides super-meta Force feats that are super-unquantifiable, there's no reason to vote for Plagueis here. Revan has better feats and better abilities.

@Darthant66 has yet to prove that Revan’s feats are better than Bane’s, let alone Plagueis’, who scales considerably over Bane.

After reading through most of the arguments I have to applaud both sides for the amount of effort they've put into justifying their positions, ultimately though, I've found the Plagueis arguments along with certain beliefs I hold about the character to cause me to favor him over the competition. After talking with a few people and thinking over my position, I don't feel the case for Caedus being ahead of the competition is as strong as it used to be so I'll be switching my vote from Caedus to Plagueis.

@Elm

But you were just willing to use a case where Jacen was taken by surprise thanks to Allana's distraction?

Indeed.

Those scenes are different enough to avoid labels of hypocrisy - Jacen is actually aware of a fight and Aurra, in the first instance, was not.

What about the Luke chair-pinning scene, in which Luke took Jacen by surprise?

Indeed.  

The contrasting effort as the differential factor.  Luke's feat was effortless and Jacen's was not. 

Telepathically dominating another Force user is extremely difficult, yes. Valkorion couldn’t do it to a comatose Outlander despite consistent effort (and this being his specialty)

Indeed. 

And upon a more thorough researching of the Legends nooks and crannies, I sumise that telepathic resistance isn't primarily contingent upon raw force power, but rather raw willpower.  There is a difference.  This may explain why non force users can - and have - faired better their counterparts on occasion.  It probably explains why Unu thinks Jacen is beyond control but Luke isn't, despite the latter being leagues and leagues more powerful. 

So is Aurra a strong willed person?  She's characterised as a "broken spirit who's suffered a series of bad breaks" among having no noteworthy feats in this arena.

It also begs the question to Why Jacen can do so well in a game of Telepathic influence but is less able to phase her with rage amped TK or demonstrate far greater augmentative ability.  It suggests he might just be a TP Savant himself.  A Savant who's only quantifiable feat is a poor one later in the series. 


 


and on the brief tangent of anti feats : 

When does context matter, and when does it not?

All the time.

This was a specific room of undetermined size 

"Room" as oppose to "hall" might give you an idea.

If that doesn't sate you 

> google search "Star Wars control room" 
> take an aggregate of pictures
> get a feeler 

Conclusion : a not so massive space occupied with people usually numbering in the teens or less 

while Jacen was in orbit.

As was Kun vs the scanning technicians of Cinnagar.  This was before Marko Ragno touched his forehead.

And you sometimes say that the excessive emotions from the prior battle meditation was overwhelming him; here, he uses this feat to discharge that anger that you say he was trying to dissipate.

I sometimes say the entire point of said battle meditation was to build up enough energy to do the deed.  I sometimes say it's corroborated by the text and how Jacen doesn't just disappitate that energy, but also every morsel of his own.

 

Wouldn’t this make it more likely that circumstances like needing to prevent the thermal detonator from hitting his daughter affect the fight? Pure rage may increase raw power, but they are highly unlikely to make it easier to deal with distractions

As Jacen is a practitioner dark power... and fear, anger, hatred help bolster dark power... and physical speed, mental reactions and precognition are a branch of those powers I'd say no.  

Only if you pretend that it was just an exercise of flipping off a switch and not trying to stop it from reaching his daughter, 

I don't have to pretend.  That was the exercise. 

> He grabbed with detonator with TK
> She lunges 
> He blocks her
> Flicks switch
> Gets kicked


It's an exercise of flicking a switch while adequately responding to her attacks. He couldn't do this.  Seen as he already had the remote in his hand before blocking her.  He just wasn't fast enough to respond despite being battle ready.

whose safety he has in his mind constantly throughout the fight.

His panic is only timber for the dark side. 

Caedus's power growth is mentioned multiple times in the books. 

mmmm.


>Jacen believes he's above any member of the order bar Luke as early as second book.  
>He also believes Saba would be hard fought battle in the seventh book.  
>Kyle stalemates/ winning against Caedus with the backup of 3 squires in their saber contest in the seventh book

Daily growth ... is tiny increments resulting some sort of boon?  

I predict half a tier (Gillard).  

The claim that Aayla Secura stomped Aurra Sing very accurate either.

I actually didn't claim that.

It is was happened though...

 Aurra gets several hits in - she loses, but it's not at all clear that Secura did better. 

It becomes clearer when the erection blood flows back into your brain. 

You might argue that she took less damage than Jacen did, but she also dealt less;

I might argue how Aayla was reconciling with Aurra at the beginning and hoped to win by talking her down.  When Auura looks to be contemplating that plight, she capitalises on the moment and elbows Aayla. That's where any remote contest ends.  Aayla immediately recovers and decides that the gloves come off.  

This is unlike Jacen, who is put on his ass, rounded on before he could get up, nearly blinded in a saber lock and kicked about, disarmed and after amping himself, fails to hurt her with force push to a wall.  In contrast :

> Aayla kicks her and forces pushes her whilst continuing her lecture 
> Sing retaliates 
> Secura uses the lightsaber to mark her face (epitomising restraint)
> She then rends her communication antennae and knocks her out.  


What Secura does is wage the battle with greater finesse, speed and perfect control whilst adhering to Jedi philosophy of restraint.  And no that isn't the same as simply discarding lightning when the chips are down.  Secure demonstrated a tier difference in latent ability and she's still below the likes of Shaak Ti and Kiadi Mundi (see Grievous fight).  She does better than Jacen and she does so whilst delivering a morally righteous speech till it's cadence..  

Furthermore, you are assuming that Jacen taking damage is something that really hinders him

I'm not assuming that.  

seeing as how pain actually makes Caedus stronger (so long as it isn't literally physically crippling to the point where it overpowers that), it isn't too shocking that in most of his fights, both he and his opponent take far more damage than, say, the PT duels involved.

I don't think Caedus designed his style to sustain hits.  He tries to avoid them.

The hits he receives don't materialise as a quirk of his style, they're there because he was on his ass.

Actually, fighting multiple duelists is something that master duelist Dooku would have more experience with

Indeed.  

I shouldn't compare Jacen with master level duelists if he can't respond to Sing while flicking a switch. 

 than Jacen having to deal with the specific situation of grabbing from midair a thermal detonator that was about to kill his daughter (and that was making him panick) and then turning it off while being attacked by a Jedi hunter who specializes in taking on Force users more powerful than herself using tactics like this, 

Yet she Hasn't hunted Jedi in 60 years and never slayed anyone of note in her prime

AotC Obi Wan lasted longer against Dooku.

How long one wages a battle is less interesting to me than how well its waged.  

You're arguing for one factor in a multi varied equation that demonstrates combinative parity.  'Time spent' becomes far less important when you consider the motives of characters, specific features within those fights and their current mindset.  Dooku is toying (various sources) with Kenobi.  Taunts him mid way and grins like a cheshire cat when victory is assured.  He also takes interest how Obi fights and doesn't fully embrace the idea of killing the student of his student.  Besides, Dooku can incap ROTS Obi Wan with TK despite "force exhaustion baring down on his senses".  Yet Jacen's rage amped Tk doesn't phase Aurra.  

This is why you cipher through the specific details of the fight and ask if parity can be found and in what categories.  In the case with Sing vs Jacen we can see that her augmentation is clearly a problem for him.  The circumstances, which amount to : he needed to flick a switch early on in the fight and couldn't use lightning aren't as important as the fact that 

> she landed a kick that sent him flying 
> could round on him before he recovered 
>could push down his guard 
> when he cartwheeled over her, she span on the spot and he "could barley catch her wrist" 

All examples of parity in speed and strength.  The devil is in the detail.  Examine the details instead of fondling yourself... then you might see which comparisons are apt and which aren't.  


The gap between Dooku and AOTC Obi Wan (a tier) is bigger.   Aurra sing has either comparable, perhaps better augmentation, yet Jacen thought he was close to Luke before this event, debunking possibility of TUF scaling all the way to Invincible.  The debunk scaling means Luke amped Jaina is an anomaly - there's no precedent for her to gain all his power anyway and she's a tier 6 without it.  Then there is his fight with Inferno Luke who fought Lumiya in a similar mind set. 

Lol, Lumiya being four paces away from the cliff, as the text indicates

The text actually doesn't indicate that.  It was hypothetical based on yoru assertion that the fight lasted in four hits . 

The text does not the text indicate there are only four hits either. 

or perhaps being more but being driven back “step by step” as in stumbling backwards per hit

That's not what happened either 

“He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.”

A decision of hers to move backwards sans stumbling... 

Realise that without distance the whip function is useless... And without the whip, her weapon is ruler long metal baton which she has to use to block Luke's lightsaber.  So it's pretty impressive that she's blocking him at all given what little surface area there is to work with along with a big disadvantage in leverage.  Not at all emblematic of a few tiers gap, or even one.

So this is four hits. Four. Like, OK, maybe Lumiya was doing fine and she could’ve been OK without the cliff, but that’s your burden, not mine.

I don't have to prove shit. 

If we assume Lumiya is starting nor edge of the cliff, has to maintain distance from Luke because of a weapon disadvantage, then driving her to the edge doesn't say much in regards to how huge a gap there is.  The important note is how he struggles to push her back in the final lock.  Despite his longer weapon, speciality in a strength based form and her injuries

How does it not matter? What if the moment was a split second

Unlikely - “pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.”   - implies their could have been an exchange of words if there was anything left to say. 

Even RotJ Luke blocked Palpatine’s lightning for some moment.

A much smaller moment.... sans "grunting with the effort"...  with Palpatine toying with Luke...

Apt comparisons please. 

So potentially less time than Dooku’s lock with AotC Obi Wan

....




......



.......


“pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.”



- Luke vs Lumiya


Apt comparisons pls. 

Sidious’s lock with Maul

The one where he locks both Savage and Maul at the same time and laughs?

Or when where Maul's rage amp allowed him to compete with Sidious? 

If the latter, then you can juxtapose Lumiya with Mauls relativity to Sidious ... Except she hasn't any amps to speak of, is injured and doesn't care about dying

Apt comparisons...

Kit Fisto’s resistance to Sidious?

Three blocks and cut down with Mace as back up...?



.... 

Let's review the examples and what you're trying to argue.  

Dooku vs Atoc Kenobi.  One tier difference.  Dooku trolls him. 
Sidious vs Maul.  One tier difference.  Pushes down Maul and Savage while laughing
Sidious vs Rage!Maul.  Briefly matched until Maul succumbs after competing as rivals


> claims LOTF Luke is competing at > DE Palpatine levels
> Lumiya is barely Jedi Master level and struggles against randoms
> Luke struggles more against Lumiya than Sidious did against Rage!Maul via saber lock 
> Caedus needs circumstances just to lose against Luke at this level. 

Well now you're adding more examples with circumstances. Jacen vs. Kyle lasted less than 10 seconds

"The duel taxed both men, until solo rammed Katarn with a speeder" - Encyclopaedia entry on Kyle

Jacen knew he couldn't duel at this level for long and tried something underhanded. Granted he needs a few more days for his injuries to fully recover, but they were never juxtaposed as a massive game changer anyway and should't be regarding Jacen's skills.  

and Jacen just said that he can defeat Saba "with difficulty"; almost any actual fight would take "difficulty"

Except the ones that don't. I.E that Dooku vs AOTC Kenobi fight 

Saba herself is extremely powerful and I don't know why you just tacitly assume that she's unimpressive

Scales below Aayla.

Mara Jade was an even more skilled assassin than Aurra Sing

'

Indeed, Mara has been described as Luke's most powerful ally, putting her above both Avatar-avatar mauling Saba and singularity-manipulating Kyp Durron.

Pretty sad really.  

She literally struggles to collapse a frail, falling apart, low ceiling tunnel with TK.  So that doesn't say much for Saba  or Kyp's combative effectiveness... for all his singularity-manipulating power.  

Regardless, they all scale below Aayla. 

 

It's not scalable in the same way. How well a YVH and a Jedi knight would fare against each other 1 v 1 does not equate to the ability of multiple YVH droids to unload simultaneous firepower in a confined space.

Being in a confined space is less viable than split up blaster-fire coming from multiple, wide spanning trajectories.  The Jedi knights get an edge here, given that deflecting bullets to the sender is their bread and butter.  Those senders being in the same place makes it all the easier.  Given this, 1000's of Jedi Knight level Vong in TUF are scalable to these droids in sense that they're a vastly, vastly better fighting force. 

Given this, TUF scaling is done. 

He didn't say "these droids will defeat Luke!" but rather "well I hope it can take out some of these Jedi..." which would include Ben, Leia, and Saba.

He doesn't think they will kill Luke. 

but he did believe they had a shot a killing Luke... 

“Caedus didn’t think these measures (YHV Droids) would stop the Jedi. But they might whittle down the numbers of Jedi.

They had to. Jacen could defeat his mother or Ben without trouble; Saba, with difficulty. Saba plus Luke would be impossible odds. One of the Masters had to fall if Caedus was to survive this day.

The droids might "wittle down" the numbers of Jedi and one of the "masters" had to fall.  

Ben isn't Master
Leia isn't a master, just a Knight
Luke and Saba are masters 

He specifies that one of the masters could fall to the droids, but not which one in specific...  TUF scaling - as predicated on Jacen's view of Luke in the series -  bunk?

@meatpants https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2411-how-large-is-the-gap-between-bane-and-plagueis?highlight=bane

(i explained the gap between sheev and bane there. idk if u wanted to look at it).

oh, and i think that qordis wasnt a spirit. bane says that he mightve very likely been a vision caused by the thought bomb.

No doubt in my mind that Revan takes Plagueis, consider this my vote to support Revan.

Give a summary please. Can't be bothered to go through 11 pages on the topic

Some people think Revan wins, some people think Plagueis wins. Who do you think wins?

@LOTL You don't have to go through 11 pages. Ant made his first Revan case on page 7. Myself, Ellimist, Bran and Ant have been posting intermittently since then.

The two contenders now are Plagueis and Revan

I am not sure as to how the debating should have evolved on the course of 3 months but I see essentially the same arguments being shaped and reshaped in the same theme as glass gets melted, formed, then melted and then reformed again to different shapes but still, looking at it overall, it is just glass only. Maybe the surface intricacies have changed but not the base quality of the material

As it is, going by a cursory glance, the opinion hasn't changed. Revan is capable enough to contend in the force, especially considering his versatility, and his ability to map that in combat on the go but I am not yet convinced he has the dueling skill or the combat acumen of Plagueis to achieve a victory by a majority