★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

(Lol, since that seems suspicious, I need to clarify that GOAT had refused to vote for either side earlier and was written off by the Revanites as a no-vote.

His vote is just as unexpected to me as it is for you guys. )

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:
There's very little reason to believe that Vitiate, as he appears in SWTOR, is not a Sith: it's what he is referred to as through and through in all of the material. Valkorion is another story because he actively renounced the Sith Order and tried to destroy and replace it with the Eternal Empire.

Would we not consider Bane a "non-Sith" then since he renounced the Brotherhood, destroyed it, and replaced it with his own order? Or is it because Bane actively created a new philosophy/order under the umbrella term of "the Sith" with the primary goal still being the destruction of the Jedi and ascendancy of the Darkside which ultimately would have us consider him to be "a Sith" where we would not for Valkorion.

Edit: I.E. like a Christian denouncing Lutheranism/Calvinism/Mormonism/some other sect of Christianity but still following the core beliefs of "Christianity" as opposed to a former Christian denouncing the religion and its tenants as a whole.

Bane was tutored by Revan's holocron, and so much like A' Sharad Hett, it was on that basis he became a Sith. He had a direct tie to the original Sith and was trained in their ways. I'm pretty sure the book states something to the effect that Bane was made more of a Sith than any of them by virtue of his studying and embracing the original lore.

Edit: so to be clear, the difference is Bane started a new Sith Order, but nevertheless was still a Sith, whereas Valkorion started and embraced an explicitly non-Sith order with no ties to the original Sith Order. My understanding is that he found the Zakuulians and sort of helped to modernise their existing culture and order into the powerhouse it would later become.

ILS wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:
There's very little reason to believe that Vitiate, as he appears in SWTOR, is not a Sith: it's what he is referred to as through and through in all of the material. Valkorion is another story because he actively renounced the Sith Order and tried to destroy and replace it with the Eternal Empire.

Would we not consider Bane a "non-Sith" then since he renounced the Brotherhood, destroyed it, and replaced it with his own order? Or is it because Bane actively created a new philosophy/order under the umbrella term of "the Sith" with the primary goal still being the destruction of the Jedi and ascendancy of the Darkside which ultimately would have us consider him to be "a Sith" where we would not for Valkorion.

Edit: I.E. like a Christian denouncing Lutheranism/Calvinism/Mormonism/some other sect of Christianity but still following the core beliefs of "Christianity" as opposed to a former Christian denouncing the religion and its tenants as a whole.

Bane was tutored by Revan's holocron, and so much like A' Sharad Hett, it was on that basis he became a Sith. He had a direct tie to the original Sith and was trained in their ways. I'm pretty sure the book states something to the effect that Bane was made more of a Sith than any of them by virtue of his studying and embracing the original lore.

Edit: so to be clear, the difference is Bane started a new Sith Order, but nevertheless was still a Sith, whereas Valkorion started and embraced an explicitly non-Sith order with no ties to the original Sith Order. My understanding is that he found the Zakuulians and sort of helped to modernise their existing culture and order into the powerhouse it would later become.

So out of curiosity, if Vitiate's primary goal WAS NOT to destroy the Jedi Order/bring about Darkside supremacy prior to Valkorion should we still consider him a Sith despite him being referred to as one iyo?

The "is Vitiate a Sith?" question has a pretty clear answer - multiple sources explicitly call him one. That was never retconned; it may have been that he stopped being a Sith after Ziost, but the more extraordinary claim that he wasn't even a Sith in SWTOR doesn't work. If no source had called him a Sith, then maybe you could discuss whether the supremacy quotes apply to him, but a fan theory about whether his views in KotFE retroactively apply does not override sourcebooks and codexes.

The anti-offensive midichlorian manipulation argument seems like a red herring (Azronger already essentially debunked this, but just adding a bit).

I disagree with Ant's claim that it's just sever Force - again, that the ancients could trigger a die-off of midichlorians (just like how a blaster bolt to the head could) without understanding its underpinnings (per the same source Ant cited) is like saying that the ancient Romans were civil engineers; that's true, they were, but the difference between Roman engineering and modern engineering is so stupendous as to make this a semantics game.

But let's move past names and labels and look at the quantifying. Book of the Sith says that sever Force is FAR EASIER TO ACHIEVE than healing. Therefore, a drunk, half-asleep Plagueis's ability to heal from Sidious's lightning would scale his sever Force ability far, far above Sidious's lightning. Whether you want to say that it's the same kind of sever Force or a different kind is irrelevant to the scaling over Vitiate.

There are a lot of anti-Plagueis memes that some may have found convincing before their counters came out, and then the counters may have been buried in the thread. But there are a lot of flaws in them that were never actually countered.

• Nobody countered the fact that Sidious tried to nuke Plagueis and was paranoid about his power, being afraid of going near his corpse, which has zero compatibility with not using his full potency on him.
  
• Nobody countered the Plagueis supremacy quote except to make an incorrect interpretation of a loaded question asked on Twitter.
  
• Nobody countered the TPM Sidious supremacy quotes except to incorrectly identify them as in-universe based on "a long time ago...", a Star Wars trope, and to make claims about whether OOU authors can use the past tense and suspend disbelief when OOU sources do that all the time.
  
• Nobody responded to the differentiation between Sidious's monologues and whether he used full power during the lightning (again, see: the Yoda analogy).
  
• Nobody tried to touch the galaxy unbalancing feat to any meaningful degree.
  

Summary and note on a double standard

I think the key point here is:

The Plagueis side has actual, direct scaling over Revan. Meanwhile, the reverse is more an "eyeballing it", guessing that doing well on a strike team that has no scaling to Plagueis might work because maybe the nexus gets canceled out by other factors, etc. But that's not enough - dismissing explicit statements on supremacy should take extraordinary evidence or direct contradiction, not guesswork.

There's this weird double standard where every kind of scaling that Plagueis has over Revan is expected to be "binding", to put it in Ant's words, while "eyeballing" for Revan is OK. Having several supremacy quotes, a quote saying Sidious drew on the dark side "more deeply than he ever had", Sidious speculating that Plagueis was the most powerful being who ever lived, Plagueis and Sidious unbalancing the entire Force, etc., can all in theory be rationalized away by some interpretation (anything can be). But at the end of the day, when you see:

drawing more deeply on the dark side than he ever had

Do you think the claim that he wasn't actually trying to at least incapacitate Plagueis is the most reasonable one? Or is it mental gymnastics to fit a narrative?

Meet Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived

Is this just misdirection? 

I understand the memes and bandwagon effect, and ultimately it's up to you to have your reasons to vote one way or another. I don't think a look at the cases themselves divorced from jokes, etc., favor Revan. I think they favor Plagueis (and I'm of course voting for him).

Plagueis actually has a decent case, unlike Caedus who Elm originally rooted for (what was he thinking lol)

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:
There's very little reason to believe that Vitiate, as he appears in SWTOR, is not a Sith: it's what he is referred to as through and through in all of the material. Valkorion is another story because he actively renounced the Sith Order and tried to destroy and replace it with the Eternal Empire.

Would we not consider Bane a "non-Sith" then since he renounced the Brotherhood, destroyed it, and replaced it with his own order? Or is it because Bane actively created a new philosophy/order under the umbrella term of "the Sith" with the primary goal still being the destruction of the Jedi and ascendancy of the Darkside which ultimately would have us consider him to be "a Sith" where we would not for Valkorion.

Edit: I.E. like a Christian denouncing Lutheranism/Calvinism/Mormonism/some other sect of Christianity but still following the core beliefs of "Christianity" as opposed to a former Christian denouncing the religion and its tenants as a whole.

Bane was tutored by Revan's holocron, and so much like A' Sharad Hett, it was on that basis he became a Sith. He had a direct tie to the original Sith and was trained in their ways. I'm pretty sure the book states something to the effect that Bane was made more of a Sith than any of them by virtue of his studying and embracing the original lore.

Edit: so to be clear, the difference is Bane started a new Sith Order, but nevertheless was still a Sith, whereas Valkorion started and embraced an explicitly non-Sith order with no ties to the original Sith Order. My understanding is that he found the Zakuulians and sort of helped to modernise their existing culture and order into the powerhouse it would later become.

So out of curiosity, if Vitiate's primary goal WAS NOT to destroy the Jedi Order/bring about Darkside supremacy prior to Valkorion should we still consider him a Sith despite him being referred to as one iyo?

That's my conception of what the Sith's main goals are. And my understanding is that those are Vitiate's goals and thus is referred to as a Sith.

ILS wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:

Syndiciate wrote:

ILS wrote:
There's very little reason to believe that Vitiate, as he appears in SWTOR, is not a Sith: it's what he is referred to as through and through in all of the material. Valkorion is another story because he actively renounced the Sith Order and tried to destroy and replace it with the Eternal Empire.

Would we not consider Bane a "non-Sith" then since he renounced the Brotherhood, destroyed it, and replaced it with his own order? Or is it because Bane actively created a new philosophy/order under the umbrella term of "the Sith" with the primary goal still being the destruction of the Jedi and ascendancy of the Darkside which ultimately would have us consider him to be "a Sith" where we would not for Valkorion.

Edit: I.E. like a Christian denouncing Lutheranism/Calvinism/Mormonism/some other sect of Christianity but still following the core beliefs of "Christianity" as opposed to a former Christian denouncing the religion and its tenants as a whole.

Bane was tutored by Revan's holocron, and so much like A' Sharad Hett, it was on that basis he became a Sith. He had a direct tie to the original Sith and was trained in their ways. I'm pretty sure the book states something to the effect that Bane was made more of a Sith than any of them by virtue of his studying and embracing the original lore.

Edit: so to be clear, the difference is Bane started a new Sith Order, but nevertheless was still a Sith, whereas Valkorion started and embraced an explicitly non-Sith order with no ties to the original Sith Order. My understanding is that he found the Zakuulians and sort of helped to modernise their existing culture and order into the powerhouse it would later become.

So out of curiosity, if Vitiate's primary goal WAS NOT to destroy the Jedi Order/bring about Darkside supremacy prior to Valkorion should we still consider him a Sith despite him being referred to as one iyo?

That's my conception of what the Sith's main goals are. And my understanding is that those are Vitiate's goals and thus is referred to as a Sith.

Fair enough, I agree with that view. Harr and I had a discussion though and it leaves me thinking those were NOT his main goals as of the Revan novel tbh.

Why not? In any case, I'm sure we can dig up examples of Sith with goals that seemingly run counter to those are meant to be axiomatic to what it means to be a Sith. Kreia comes to mind again, although there's still the idea that she is striving after power, she just wants to do so by killing the Force lol.

I’ll vote for Revan. Surprised Mace Windu isn’t on this list. Feel like he should be a running candidate for 8 more so than Plagueis. 

Both Az and Ant make very compelling cases for Plagueis and Revan, respectively. Both have presented their characters' abilities well and have made strong cases for them getting the no. 8 slot. Despite this, I myself do not feel comfortable with either winning this round, namely because there are other more likely candidates, such as Mace or the Outlander.

That said, it looks like these two are going to remain the frontrunners for what remains of this round, so my decision is based off the arguments presented for each combatant. 

I honestly find Az's arguments more convincing when considering the characters in a combative sense. I have to admit I found many of his rebuttals to the pro-Revan arguments very compelling. While I do think Revan is around the same level as Plagueis, I found that many of the arguments raised in this thread are ones that confirm his combat superiority, and frankly I can see Malgus requiring a greater amp than he would do against Revan to beat Plagueis, both in sabers, the Force, and esoteric abilities.

It genuinely pains me to do this, but I'm siding with Plagueis.

@BoD @LotL: I urge you to reconsider with the following argument:

REVAN - A RECAP:

This will be similar to The Ellimist's recap of Darth Plagueis on the page before.

I. SCALING: Revan is far more powerful than virtually every pre-New Sith Wars Jedi and Sith and scales above all their feats. 
(1) KOTOR Revan stomped SF Darth Malak, who has powers "far greater" than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd.
-> (A) Exar Kun was "far more powerful than any one other Jedi of the time."
-> -> (i) Thon "contained" a planetary dark side nexus teeming with "potent Sith spirits" that threatened to "consume an entire sector" within just a lake. 
-> -> (ii) Vodo-Siosk Baas was indicated to be more powerful than Thon and the era's Mace Windu, though he "did not have a chance" against Kun.
-> -> (iii) Odan Urr was indicated to be more powerful than Baas and the era's Yoda, though Kun killed him within seconds.
-> -> (iii) Kun "blinded every scanning technician" of a planet of 1.3 billion and froze tens of thousands of senators with Sith sorcery.
-> (B) Freedon Nadd and Ulic-Qel Droma were far more powerful than Force users that could easily telepathically influence armies. 
-> -> (i) Queen Amona, drawing on the power of Nadd's tomb, unleashed waves of hatred that drove a many thousands army into madness. 
-> -> (ii) Arca Jeth instantly dispelled Amona's attack through battle meditation. Walking into Nadd's tomb, his raw presence blinded the tomb's dark side energies, which (literally) killed Amanoa because she was so dependent on its power for strength. Jeth's stats also reveal he was distinctively more powerful than Thon. 
-> -> (iii) Ommin, drawing directly off Nadd's spirit, stomped Arca Jeth with a single wave of dark side energy. 
-> -> (iv) Ulic Qel-Droma overpowered the dark side energies that Ommin unleashed against him, then grew far more powerful afterwards.
(2) SOR Revan heavily challenged the Hero of Tython, Satele Shan, Darth Marr, and co., indicating he was far more powerful than them individually.
-> (C) The Hero of Tython was far more powerful than some of the strongest Jedi and Sith of the era.
-> -> (i) Shan absorbed, melted away, and broke apart a lightsaber blade.
-> -> (ii) The Hero was the Jedi's "greatest warrior," "the Jedi's finest," and stronger than any Jedi that Bengel Morr had ever felt--including Shan--by mid-game.
-> -> (iii) Scourge fought the mid-game Hero to a "standstill." 
-> -> (iv) The Hero grew far more powerful afterwards. On route to face weakened Vitiate, Scourge stated, "You must face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence." Indeed, Vitiate then "realized the Hero was too powerful to be dominated by his twisted will" and "resorted to more conventional means to destroy him." However, "for all his power, he was no match for" the Hero and was defeated. Ergo, the Hero defeated an entity that could one-shot Scourge. 
-> -> (v) The Hero continued to actualize his Vitiate+level potential, fighting Darth Malgus, the Terror from Beyond, and the Dread Masters. The Hero's spirit also recovered and "purified" many lost memories when he trained under Vitiate, which made him "whole," shortly before he fought Revan.
-> (D) Darth Marr was far more powerful than powerful Sith Lords and a match for some of the strongest Sith of the era. 
-> -> (i) Darth Lachris pressured mid-game Barsen'thor. The powerful Yuon Par noted that the Barsen'thor "was stronger in the Force at four than I was at fifteen."
-> -> (ii) Darth Marr moved faster than Lachris could perceive to the degree it appeared he teleported, and he instantly defeated her with telekinesis.
-> -> (iii) Darth Marr watched Darth Nox "utterly destroy" Darth Thanaton and still said that he would be "more than equal to [her] threats."

Plus the Vitiate scaling, but I know you don't like that, @BoD. 

II. DIRECT FEATS: 

(1 - Darth Revan) Revan ripped into the minds of, and imbued knowledge into, many, and perhaps a thousand, Force-resistant Rakata. 
(2 - mid KOTOR Revan) Revan single-handedly drove the Sith Empire from the Sith capital of Korriban, slaughtering "hundreds" of Sith apprentices and many Sith masters. 
(3 - end KOTOR Revan) Revan defeated three uber armies before stomping SF Darth Malak, who has powers "far greater" than Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd. (See: I.1.)


(4 - Revan Reborn) Revan jumped in the middle of a super-charged Force lightning storm that would have "incincerated" Meetra Surik/Scourge and instead "easily" absorbed it. Revan then reflected the energies back at Nyriss, which "ripped" through her Force barrier "unabated" (meaning she super-charged her lightning so much that it tore through her standard power with "no reduction in potency") and instantly turned her into a pile of ash. Note:


(5 - Revan Reborn) Revan resisted the combined powers of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for three centuries. Eventually, Vitiate and the Dread Masters focused on wrenching apart Revan's dual personalities, believing Revan was too powerful to influence otherwise, though even this was only partially successful and not to their benefit. Revan even secretly "manipulated"/"influenced"/"convinced" Vitiate into ending the Great Galactic War, thereby saving the Republic and the Jedi. Note:

(A) Scourge "cried out in anguish," "collapsed to the floor," and "shook like a child" after Vitiate's "mind brushed against his" for "less than a second." (B) Vitiate "easily" "dominated" and "crushed the wills" of four Jedi labeled "the galaxy's greatest Jedi" and "the galaxy's most powerful Jedi." (C) The Dread Masters telepathically brought the Hero of Tython, who had already defeated the weakened Vitiate that could one-shot Scourge with telepathy, to his knees from across the galaxy. 

(6 - Foundry Revan) Revan, very weakened and unstable after three centuries torture and drain, "threw" forty "giant" asteroids with such force they pulverized on impact.


(8+ - SOR Revan)  And then all the SOR Revan, which I already covered extensively in my opener at the top of page 7.  

III. CONCLUSION 

I promised Azronger and The Ellimist I would not further argue against Plagueis, but I will double-down on my past comments about his 'supremacy quotes'. Two of them are explicitly in-universe limited, and the final is explicitly cautioned by the head of canon to be taken subjectively. With that false scaling aside, there's no good reason to believe Plagueis's power is greater than the infinite amount of super feats that Revan either directly does or scales above. Ergo, I don't think that this fight comes down to raw power. The unique strengths and weaknesses of Revan and Plagueis will likely make or break everything. 

IMMORTALITY: Revan is a corpse powered through sheer willpower. Due to this unique condition, he has tanked attacks that would kill almost anyone else:

(*) Revan tanked internal kilometer-spanning energies through sheer willpower.

(*) Revan tanked multiple lightsaber attacks point-blank through sheer willpower. 

(*) Revan tanked a planetary superweapon trying to strip away the life force from everything in the vicinity.

TELEPORTATION: Revan has consistently teleported in the midst of combat, even while on the being attacked, losing, or on the brink-of-death. Through this ability . . .

(*) Revan can instantly disengage and adjust to his opponent's combat style whenever pressed. 

(*) Revan has used teleportation and telekinesis simultaneously to defeat his opponents before they had time to realize what happened and adjusted. There will be a short time lag when the opponent realizes Revan vanished, then another time short lag before they reposition themselves against Revan, which Revan will seize on. 

BATTLE PRECOGNITION: Revan can tactically anticipate attacks "seconds, maybe minute, and he can overlay that with his Force precognition. Revan being able to both uniquely calculate attacks before they happen AND sense them before they happen provides a logical advantage over a Force user who could just do the former.

Overall, the amp that Malgus would need to overcome someone who can just tank some of his lightsaber strikes, constantly teleport away whenever he's losing, and can uber anticipate his attacks should be more than Plagueis' more conventional arsenal + arguable midichlorian manipulation powers that likely aren't combat-transferable. 

@BoD: Even if this doesn't convince you to vote Revan or stay undecided, just let me know below that you read this post, if at all possible.

Side-note, but the idea that Revan (or Plagueis) > Mace when the latter has banite scaling putting him above him/them while the first is capped below SWTOR Vitiate and the second is somewhere (arguably) around pre-ROTS Sheev is honestly quite depressing.

Yeah, that Revan scaling is suspect. The only scaling chain that matters for him here is Revan << Vitiate.

That only matters (though I wouldn’t put >>>) if you think Plagueis is bound > Vitiate, which I don’t think is a supported position.

Like I said, though, I can’t really dive into it further per the agreement.

btw, plenty of feats beyond the lightning and supremacy quotes were provided for Plagueis, such as unbalancing the Force, atomizing maladian assassins with no functioning heart organ, causing planetary winters, etc.

The scaling is just the most straightforward way to put Plagueis above him, while the alternative is mainly a matter of eyeballing feats (and even with eyeballing, Plagueis’s feats win).

@DarthAnt66

It was >> not >>>  (though really the amount is beside the point, only that he is his inferior) and I agree with Az's assertion that saying Vitiate is not bound by the quotes opens the door up to dangerous territory, which is something you didn't refute that I saw.

ILS wrote:Why not? In any case, I'm sure we can dig up examples of Sith with goals that seemingly run counter to those are meant to be axiomatic to what it means to be a Sith. Kreia comes to mind again, although there's still the idea that she is striving after power, she just wants to do so by killing the Force lol.

If they were pursuing such goals I would no longer consider them Sith tbh.

Your premise for HoT being >>> everyone else even by acts 1/2 is flawed. 

Premise 1: The act 2 HoT >>> the other Jedi.


Tol Braga performed comparatively well against Vitiate when facing him in act 2.



While Vitiate is focusing his energies on the rest of the strike team, the HoT uses the distraction to run at Vitiate, before being attacked with a single blast from him and being staggered. During all of this, Tol Braga is defending against Vitiate's lighting and even moves through it, forcing his way slowly towards Vitiate until Vitiate has to use an intensified blast to bring them both down. Even here, Braga is performing on a comparable level to the act 2 HoT.

We then have their combined showings of willpower. The HoT broke free of Vitiate's influence with the help of Orgus Din. Tol Braga broke free by himself months before Corellia (so he broke free a comparably short time after the strike team was defeated and enslaved):

https://youtu.be/85cAgWgOVrM?t=81

Braga is then able to force act 3 HoT back with telekinesis twice, including throwing projectiles at him that he's apparently unable to block or redirect. 

Conclusion: The HoT doesn't fully surpass Tol Braga (a single member of the Jedi Council and indicated to not even be the strongest of them) until act 3.

Premise 2: Bengel Morr calling the HoT "the strongest Jedi he'd ever met"


Bengel Morr's last interaction with any senior Jedi was during the Sacking of Coruscant:

"You weren't on Coruscant. You never saw your greatest cut down or watched the temple burn."


"The horrors we witnessed on Coruscant broke him - destroyed the gentle padawan I trained."


Two things, here:

1) Bengel Morr has not met Satele, Tol Braga, Jaric Kaedan or any other member of the Jedi Council/Order (sans Orgus Din, who's more or less a pushover) since the Sacking of Coruscant, which was around 10 years before the events of act 1. Satele was still a Jedi knight at the time, if memory serves, and she'd yet to grow and develop to the extent she had by SWTOR. I'm not even sure he ever met Satele. 
2) Morr has come from a place of deep darkness and been defeated by a virtual nobody. It wasn't an established Jedi knight or master who beat him, but a lowly padawan armed with a training saber. That'd make anyone second guess and think "crap, maybe the Force is telling me I should follow this unusually strong person". 

Conclusion: Morr's opinion is hugely biased and unreliable.

Now, let's look at the rest:

(5 - Revan Reborn) Revan resisted the combined powers of Vitiate and the Dread Masters for three centuries. Eventually, Vitiate and the Dread Masters focused on wrenching apart Revan's dual personalities, believing Revan was too powerful to influence otherwise, though even this was only partially successful and not to their benefit. Revan even secretly "manipulated"/"influenced"/"convinced" Vitiate into ending the Great Galactic War, thereby saving the Republic and the Jedi. Note:

First, Revan wasn't resisting "their combined powers" at all times. Vitiate was still fairly active within the Sith Empire around this time, so other responsibilities demanded his attention. He was also focused on building the Eternal Empire around this time, which is confirmed by Valkorion himself to be the case:

"Your constant silence across our history...this was your distraction?"
"This was my focus. Everything else, a means to an end."


-


"A second empire? Even you couldn't have built all of this so quickly. There must be another explanation."


-


"There were brief moments—times when the Emperor was intently focused on something else—when he could subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the Emperor’s thoughts.

Revan wasn't crucial to Vitiate/Valkorion by the time he began building the Eternal Empire. He was, as said above, "a means to an end."

Second, Revan also suggests that Vitiate could dominate his mind once again, forcing Revan to use physical attacks to prevent Vitiate from concentrating and getting a chance to use his TP:

Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready. Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channelling the Force, he released it in its purest form. There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.

That's after he confirmed that he wasn't strong enough to beat Vitiate by himself. That's despite catching Vitiate by surprise with their attack, being fully focused on doing everything he could to stop him, and being "far more powerful":

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor? Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

You also leave out a key detail in your assessment of them wrenching Revan apart. They didn't think a whole Revan was more dangerous at all:

"So many centuries. The Emperor and his Dread Masters trying to wrench me apart, to unleash my anger and hatred."


"He wants me to be Darth Revan again. Serve him as I did centuries ago."

That's not them trying to cleave him in two, that's them trying to release the dark side within him to take over the "knife-edge" (his words) between light and dark that he balances on so he can once again bring the Republic to its knees, leaving no opposition to stop Vitiate's galaxy-wide drain. 

Third, when the DMs brought the HoT to his knees, for all we know they could have been back on Oricon. They also only managed to do it for about 5-10 seconds before the HoT pushed off their combined attack and tried to attack them with the Force:

https://youtu.be/9j-0uN1C71Y?t=260

They couldn't even bring him to his knees for long, so Revan's resistance to them while fuelled and feeding upon Meetra's very essence (now one with the Force, and so essentially a near-limitless energy source) for 2.5 centuries (before the DMs were imprisoned and Vitiate went almost completely silent) doesn't impress me as much as it used to.

I'm not going to address the immortality and teleportation sections as they've been done before.

Again, Revan is still capped below SWTOR Vitiate, who in turn is below the likes of Plagueis and TPM Sidious.

NOTICE: VOTING CLOSES IN 4 HOURS. 

I'll be away watching the MMA fight so I won't be able to close the thread when that time comes, but votes after ~10:10 PM will not be counted besides special exceptions.

---

@BoD: I disagree with effectively everything you wrote, especially the mental war/TP stuff, but I'm glad you read the post nevertheless.

I'll respond to that and straggling Revan posts the week of February 16th.

If I hadn't read your post (or the ones before it), I wouldn't have commended you both for your arguments. Will wait for your response.

Enemy of the state

Imo troll votes shouldn’t count