★ Top Fifteen Tournament #8 - Darth Plagueis

Darth Plagueis has been voted in as the #8 most powerful Star Wars character.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Palpatine
3. Valkorion
4. Irek Ismaren
5/6. Anakin Skywalker
5/6. Darth Krayt
7. Yoda
8. Darth Plagueis
9. Mace Windu
10. Revan
11. Darish Vol
12. Alliance Commander
13. Vaylin
14. Darth Caedus
15. Kueller

RULES - UPDATE!

The new metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.

For example, would Darth Malgus (as of the novel Deceived) need a greater boost in raw Force potency—which, for both the purposes of this tournament and within the lore, simply amplifies all abilities proportionate to their former levels—to defeat Yoda or UnuThul? Remember that this tournament aims to rank characters based on their overall combative threat level, NOT their raw Force potency. All characters will operate at their peak actualized iterations barring circumstantial or momentary amps. While everyone will fight in-character—meaning Yoda will not be bloodlusted—they will be aiming to kill Malgus as quickly and efficiently as possible with nothing held back.

If you have not already, please open the spoiler boxes to read the guidelines and banned characters for the tournament.

GUIDELINES

Spoiler:

BANNED CHARACTERS

Spoiler:

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gotta go with gethzerion, unless someone brings up a better name

Gethzerion seems okay.

Could anyone show me why geth is considered strong? I don’t get her wank

why? cuz bart agreed with me, thats why.

If Gethzerion ain't beating Yoda, she ain't beating Plagueis either. Unless the Revan fans can finally come up with a compelling argument (hint: not Star Forge scaling), Plagueis should ravage all other contenders. My vote goes to him.

idk how she aint beating yoda tbh lol

Plagueis

While I said I'd limit my posting I still want to vote in this tournament. I'd vote for Starkiller but given that he won't get many votes and I'm not really able to make a case rn (not that I'd convince anyone anyway), I'll vote for Revan instead.

I'm gonna go for Plagueis. Will contribute to defending Plagueis as this thread progresses.

Plagueis

I'll withhold from voting until arguments are made, I urge others to do the same.

While the picks of Plagueis, Mace Windu, Gethzerion, Vol, and others can have strong justifications, allow me to make a case for Darth Caedus. (Thanks to DarthCaedus77, EmperorCaedus, and others for conversations)

Jacen Reaction Scaling

In LotF: invincible, during which Caedus is at the height of his Force powers, he fights his sister Jaina, who is both being amped by Luke and illusion'd to make it look like she's actually Luke. Her amp from her perspective:

Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

Here are some snippets of the fight:

They started to drop, trading a trio of lightning-fast blows that left Caedus's hands stinging and his heart racing. The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife.

After the third exchange, Caedus and Luke came down in the seating area, two rows apart. Both landed on their feet, Luke more lightly than Caedus.

So Jaina has the initial advantage, though it should be noted that Caedus only has one functional arm. While Caedus isn't bothered by such pain, there are obvious tactical limitations that he alludes to here. Still, Caedus is able to avoid losing outright.

A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad. The Force lightning had died away, but her muscles remained useless aching knots, and the stench of scorched flesh was so powerful she wanted to retch. Instead, she tried to rise-and succeeded only in sparking a dozen different kinds of pain.

Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing.

"You?" he gasped. "Jaina?"

Jaina managed to raise her throbbing head. It hurt-a lot-and her vision was starting to blur.

"I haven't changed that much, Jacen," she said. With her muscle control beginning to return, she pushed herself into a kneeling position. "And I hope you know how much this Sith nonsense is steaming Mom and Dad."

If Caedus heard her wisecrack, he did not show it. His yellow eyes began to dart around the chamber, searching for something Jaina did not understand-but maybe that was just because her head was throbbing so bad. The pain was beginning to muddle her thoughts.

Somehow, Caedus forced himself back to his feet. That would have been impressive-if it weren't so kriffing scary.

"Where's Luke?" he demanded.

"Right behind me," Jaina said, also standing. The effort sent pangs of anguish shooting through her lungs, and she realized she had a few broken ribs to go with the lightning scorch on her chest. She squinted in his direction, trying to keep him in focus so she could kill him. "Come over here, and I'll show you."

That brought Caedus's gaze snapping back toward her, and Jaina realized she might have overplayed her hand. She still had both arms, but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own. She tossed the beskad aside and summoned a fallen stormtrooper's power blaster to hand.

Jaina assesses the fight by noting that Caedus's Force powers were far greater than her own even while she was amped (she doesn't lose the amp until explicitly noted a few sentences later). Even if this wasn't precisely the case, it's still true that when fighting a Jaina who was being amped by Luke to appear to be Luke, Caedus with one good arm is actually in better physical shape; he was, by a small margin, winning.

One might argue that Jaina had Caedus dead-to-rights at a part in the fight. However looking at it:

But Luke did something even more unexpected, removing one hand from his lightsaber and pushing the palm forward. An instant later, the unseen hammer of a Force blast caught Caedus in the sternum and drove him not over, but through the seats behind him.

He slammed into the next row and dropped to the floor foot-to-foot with the big Mandalorian he had killed earlier-the one in the black armor and red helmet. Caedus's head was spinning and his chest was more than aching-it was throbbing, burning, clenching so tightly he could hardly breathe.

But he still had his lightsaber-and he needed it. He thumbed the activation switch and brought the weapon up just as Luke's blue blade came slicing down toward him. Caedus caught it on his own crimson blade, then straightened his arm, simultaneously parrying and pointing the dart thrower on his wrist into his attacker's face.

"Release!" he commanded.

A faint puff of air tickled Caedus's forearm as the thrower launched its darts, but Luke was already whirling out of the way. The slivers streaked past in a harmless black flash and vanished; then Luke was spinning into the row where Caedus lay, positioning himself above Caedus's head for the coup de grace.

There was no time to leap up or loose a bolt of Force lightning, and the angle was particularly poor for blocking and parrying. Caedus's only hope lay at his feet, and he seized that hope with the Force, using it to pull the dead Mandalorian up over him, then hurling the corpse headlong into Luke.

Two bodies collided with the sharp crack of metal impacting bone. When Caedus did not die in the next instant, he realized he had finally driven his uncle onto the defensive. He rolled to a knee, his lightsaber ignited and raised between them.

Luke lay buried beneath the huge Mandalorian, blood pooling around his head and one motionless arm protruding beneath the fellow's side. By all appearances, Luke Skywalker was dead-or at least unconscious.

So Jaina did something unexpected, which matches the whole plot line of her learning how to fight assymetrically with Boba Fett, and which Caedus alludes to here:

Eager as he was to be rid of Luke, Caedus was also suspicious. His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

So Luke doing something like a Force push in that manner at that time was "unexpected", probably in its ruthlessness, which then part Caedus in an awkward position due to the angle. That's not at all analogous to some sort of blitz due to power differentials.

But was Jaina really amped to Luke's power level?

It's not a question of whether Jaina was at the level of 100% LotF Luke (she probably wasn't), but rather whether she was on par with what Caedus had seen of Luke's power. Caedus has seen Luke fight and use the Force many times, such as:

• When Luke attacks [pre-prime] Caedus in the Force through his starfighter in Revelation, in which Caedus explicitly notes that he realizes how much power Luke has.
  
• When Luke fights Caedus in Inferno, after which Caedus expresses surpise Luke's performance (far from going "wow he's suddenly super weak").
  
• When he fights alongside Luke in The Unifying Force, in which Luke had cast aside for that battle his fear of the dark side and was fighting in a oneness like state that would presumably be far, far, far above his much less powerful self's performance against Palpatine at the end of Dark Empire.
  

Caedus is also presumably aware that Luke defeated UnuThul, whose power he had witnessed.

Caedus is clearly convinced that Jaina is Luke (his comments on Jaina's fighting style also undermine the potential claim that Jaina's lack of skill was a major hinderance). Even if you think he didn't notice a disparity in the middle of a fight, he had plenty of time to reflect on it afterwards, and never came to the conclusion that Luke was unusually weak. He clearly saw that he was fighting someone of Luke's level (and why wouldn't Luke amp Jaina to that level if the point is to 1) give her the best chance of victory and 2) to convince Caedus that it was Luke?).

Some people have argued that Caedus would not draw a comparison to Luke's power in Revelation, but rather only to his performance in Inferno. This wouldn't make sense; why wouldn't someone of Caedus's experience be able to do that? But even so, that still scales above TUF. Nor is it true that Caedus was somehow crazy in Invincible (beyond being a dark sider and all); he concocts multiple complex plans in it, including:

• Prolonging the fight with mandalorians long enough to strategically get the moffs he wanted dead.
  
• Tactically outmaneuvering Jaina in their duel.
  
• Using a nightsister blood trail on Jaina.
  

Didn't Luke stomp Caedus in Revelation?

Sure, though it should be noted that he rips apart Caedus's starfighter; he doesn't ragdoll Caedus directly. While it's true that Caedus couldn't stop him, Luke states that Caedus could've done the reverse too:

"Try-ahh." Caedus struggled to correct the StealthX as the damaged starboard wing cannon broke away. The escaping vapor was speckled with round droplets now. "Did you do that?"

Chunkk. The port cannon ripped free.

"You could retaliate, "said Luke, "and we'll both end up dead. Come about and head back toward Fondor."

Also, this isn't peak Caedus; that would be in Invincible.

Also, the gap between Luke and Caedus may be larger in a contest of the Force, but in dueling and overall combat prowess it's clearly much closer.

Didn't Luke stomp Caedus in Inferno?

Well firstly, this is of course pre-prime Caedus.

Secondly, Caedus was hardly defenseless in the fight. Luke had the initial element of surprise attacking him suddenly from behind, but Caedus still got several hits in and they were exchanging lightsaber blows, and per C3PO comments to Luke in Invincible: "the last time you two fought, you were forced to spend your nights in the bacta tank for an entire week". For example:

He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire.

He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.

Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down.

While Jacen lost, he still was able to get several licks in against the deadliest conventional combatant in Star Wars.

Let's take a look at what an infinitely weaker incarnation of Luke did to DE Sidious:



Again, this is decades before Jacen sees Luke fighting in TUF, or learns that he defeated UnuThul, or fights him in Inferno and sees his power in Revelation.

While Caedus isn't as powerful as full power Luke in Invincible, he is able to contend with a version of Luke that he does not think to be weaker than the >>> EoDE version he saw arguably better than Palpatine did.

Comparison to UnuThul

You can make the case that Caedus is more powerful than UnuThul from their respective performances against Luke.

When Luke finally is willing to go all-out against UnuThul, the fight isn't that close:

A flurry of cannon bolts zipped past Luke from behind and took out three insects. Raynar pointed at the attacking droids. A muffled thump erupted inside one of them, and it went down in a sizzling, popping crash of laminanium. Luke killed the last of Raynar's bodyguards by Force-slamming them into the wall so hard their thoraxes burst, then the two Jedi were on one another, their lightsabers flashing toward each other's heads with all the speed and might they could summon.

That was the trouble with powerful men-especially younger ones. Awed by their own strength, they so often believed strength was the answer to every problem. Luke was older and wiser. While Raynar swung, he pivoted.

As Raynar's gold blade sliced the air where Luke's head had been, Luke's boot was kicking him behind the ankles, knocking his legs out from under him and stretching him out flat.

But Raynar was a Jedi, and all Jedi were quick. He caught himself in the Force, levitating himself just long enough to bring his golden blade sweeping in at Luke's shoulder.

Luke had no choice but to block with his blade, and no place to block but the forearm. Raynar's lightsaber went spinning off, still securely in the grasp of his three-fingered hand, and caught one of Luke's bugcrunchers squarely in the back. The weapon sliced through six centimeters of laminanium armor before the severed forearm flew free. The blade deactivated, and the hilt disappeared into the tangle of death and destruction at the droid's feet.

The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.

But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

Luke stood that way, waiting, dimly aware that his surviving bugcrunchers were moving into defensive positions, one at his back and the other just inside the burst hatch. Raynar continued to struggle, trying to hurl Luke down the corridor, trying to move him a single centimeter.

Luke did not budge, and finally Raynar stopped struggling and met his eyes with a stunned and anguished gaze.

The Master sighed and shook his head. "What am I going to do with you, Raynar Thul?" he asked. "You learn nothing from your mistakes."

Luke deactivated his lightsaber and picked Raynar up by the collar and slammed him against the wall. He used the Force to pin him there, waiting for an answer to his question, watching as the expression in his captive's pained eyes turned from astonishment to anger to calculation.

But when Raynar's free hand rose, it was not to summon the Force lightning that Luke had expected. It was to call his lightsaber back, to attempt to continue the battle that he obviously could no longer win.

It was in that moment that Luke finally decided that the life of Raynar Thul would be spared. He intercepted the weapon and used the Force to pin Raynar's remaining arm against the wall along with the rest of his body. Then he opened the hilt of the captured lightsaber and removed the focusing crystal. He held it up in front of Raynar.

"Someday I may return this-but for now, it's staying with me." He zipped the gem into a pocket of his vac suit, then reached out to Raynar in the Force and spoke in a softer voice. "Your days as UnuThul are done, Raynar. It's time to surrender and come home."

From Dark Nest III. Luke basically stomps UnuThul pretty casually; this is the same UnuThul who can bend turbolasers and has the combined power of trillions of Killiks. UnuThul commands far, far more powerful than a single Nest of killiks, which is beyond what a less confident Luke can deal with earlier in the novel:

She could still draw on her nest to enhance her Force potential, and as strong as Luke was, he was not strong enough to overpower an entire nest of Killiks.

But a "less confident" Luke by Dark Nest is still unimaginably powerful (to put it in perspective, a far more emotionally conflicted Anakin at the beginning of RotS can still make Dooku feel like he's aging decades with every block).

What does this mean?

A lot of evidence puts Luke Skywalker as the most powerful conventional Force user in the mythos, and the most potent duelist as well, by a very large margin given the massive scaling chains over DE Sidious. Any potential alternative to Caedus would have to be able to deal significant damage to a tier 10/11+ combatant in a fight. 

tl;dr

Caedus has solid performances against a Luke who by Caedus's reactions was at or above the level of TUF Luke, who is far above DE Sidious.

Fett Reaction Scaling

Just some other bonuses for Caedus:

• His damage soak is insane, to the point where he can deliberately take a saber hit to get his own attack in (e.g. vs. Jaina) and gets stronger through his pain. You basically have to land a fatal blow or physically remove his ability to function, which means that he can punch potentially even above his weight class.
  
• Due to his Skywalker potential, his rage-amp is going to have a much higher ceiling, and he feasts on his pain to get that amp.
  
• He knows shatterpoint, Aing-Tii fighting-sight, and several other random and esoteric Force abilities.
  

Oh, and this:

"Telekinesis." Jaina took a step back to keep Beviin in physical view. He had a blaster and that short, flat saber, both hanging from his belt. "I've known him to move star-ships, deflect ion cannon... even turbolasers. He can hear at huge distances with some Theran Force-listening tech-nique. He can create elaborate Force illusions that feel real, he can walk into the past or future, he can control objects like scanners, and he can mind-rub-he even mind-rubbed Ben."

From Revelation. Jaina has seen Caedus deflect turbolasers (debate over Traviss's out of universe intent aside, this is what Jaina says in-universe). Oh, and:

"He could get rich on that." Fett didn't sound as if he were mocking. In fact, he felt totally neutral to her; a blank slate in the Force, nothing to read. "Why does he need spies and secret police if he can eavesdrop wherever he wants?"

"I... I don't know."

"If he can stop turbolasers single-handed, why does he need a fleet?"

Jaina looked for the angle. "Again, no idea."

"Why does he need shields on ships when he can create his own?"

She was balanced on the balls of her feet now, ready to leap. It was so instinctive, so ingrained by training, that she couldn't override it. She felt threatened. In the corner of her eye, the thin strip of light that marked the barn doors expanded into a wider ribbon and someone-several someones-came in. She had an audience.

I'm the cabaret. Okay, Fett. I never thought this would be a stroll anyway.

Fett lowered the lightsaber and held it with its tip just above the dusty floor, kicking up little clouds of particles as he walked slowly toward her. "Anything else?"

"We... can't sense him in the Force..."

"Welcome to the mundane world."

"...and he can make himself invisible, sometimes."

OK so in addition to Caedus being able to make himself invisible, Jaina legitimately cannot answer why Caedus even needs a fleet. This reinforces that Jaina thinks Caedus can deflect capital ship turbolasers with enough ease that his ability to solo a fleet is on the table.

(now you might think that this second point is more whimsical and maybe it is, but it's still there. At the very least, Jaina's impression of her brother is basically that he borders on invincible.)

I’ll vote Jacen

Starkiller.

Excellent post @The Ellimist, I vote Jacen.

Plagueis.

Not sure

What do you think of Elm’s post?

You asking me?

Elm has risen above the mortal plane

Revan

Ok, switching for Jacen/Caedus 

Gonna make a case for Bane now

If you think Jacen doesn’t take this why don’t you make an argument against him and one for Revan?