Zonakin vs rage amped Luke

My conversation with BoD here.

oh i read that, but that seemed somewhat unfinished kek

@Meatpants In a seminar right now so will reply in a bit.

So Sidious just developed more and more flaws in his style as he aged?

That's normally how age affects you, yes. Your stamina and endurance decrease as you get older, which of course would limit you in a duel. And since we're on the subject, Gillard clearly takes into account mental (and logically, physical) factors when talking about stylistic flaws:

Gillard made is quite clear that between tier 9 duelists, style is the deciding factor (assuming the environment is neutral);

Of course it's a deciding factor, but it's not the only one. Strength, speed, power, stamina, age, mental state, endurance, and tactical abilities have proven time and time again that they too can be deciding factors within duels. For example, Obi-Wan outsmarting MFV through tactics, or Lumiya using a lightwhip to gain an advantage over more powerful and more skilled beings like Luke. Claiming that a style is the only deciding factor belies the nature of a fight as a series of events that can be just as down to luck (such as one character moving too slow, or another character being lulled into a false of security, or even a successful feint) to end the duel as they are style. Obi-Wan is a great example of luck and tactics being the deciding factor in a duel, not necessarily his style. Take him versus Maul, for example. Maul bests him, then he gets lucky, catches Maul off-guard and slices him in half. Or against MFV, against whom he used tactics (manipulating his prosthetic arm, drawing him to the bank, taking the high ground, etc) and had a healthy dose of luck to help him. 

so having the least flaws in your style is logically gonna help a lot, no? And having a style with less flaws than Sidious or Yoda isn't anything to scoff at.

Never said it wasn't, but the flaws you refer to are physiological in nature and don't prove Anakin is more skilled than either. All it proves is he has greater stamina and isn't hindered by physical factors like age or IU height.

now let’s address this egoistical downplaying Vader hater AKA DC I cant remember his name nor do I care.



I said a great disturbance in the force, as if an arrogant brat suddenly started flushing out his ego and is In serious need of the Mustifar treatment.
______________

.”

Luke was still equal to Vader before the rage amp, and Anakin was fighting as a superior to Dooku by forcing him up the stairs, pushing him back, and kicking him off the platform. Obi-Wan the “LEAST” atuned Force user went from being fodder to Dooku to scaring the crap out of him to the point where he needed to call upon Dark Side energy from across the universe as stated in the RotS novel to beat him.



In TFA Starkiller outfenced and overpowered while Galen himself was heavily injured Vader but a year later a more powerful Starkiller with a second saber tried the same and failed because Vader has improved a lot in the less than a year time. Now imagine him with five years... you can not think he Improved much, but it’s factual unlike your bias headcanon. The Death Star novel says and I quote here: “He sill had skill just out of practice” proving that as a duelist Kenobi wasn’t too far behind, and remember that all Kenobi did while in hiding was learn how to become a better Jedi Master and study the Force with help from Qui-Gon Jinn (this did happen in the Kenobi novel bty) meaning that the Force should be much stronger with him at that point then it’s ever been which means that Dooku probably couldn’t throw him though if Palpatine helped him out then Kenobi would still be toast (like what happened in the movie). So there based on this Vader four whole years before his prime would be equal to a Kenobi who isn’t that far beneath his RotS version who Dooku already basically admitted he couldn’t beat in a straight up duel and had to use everything he had to just throw him which would make pre prime Vader at least comparable to Dooku. You can’t use this because Dooku again couldn’t overcome Kenobi with lightsaber technique meanwhile Vader’s fight with Kenobi was almost entirely saber to saber combat with no Force powers being included.

“YT fan theories don't interest me.”

its not a fan theory it’s freaking implied in the movie. Besides if Dooku did that then why could he not do the same to Anakin Especially when Anakin was about to kill him? Remember Anakin and Kenobi are equals with the Force https://youtu.be/xTnQw188xyo.



Wasn’t his D burnt off? Don’t accuse me of that when all you do quote misleading sources that Contradict the movie, the novelization, and the script, for ANH in order to downplay a character that you hate while you yourself speak highly about yourself just to inflate your ego. And what dose Lucas have to do with anything?


______________________

Now time to debunk the myth that Old Ben is = to Vader because a misleading source said so: 

Life and Legend of Kenobi: “Obi Wan stood in and offensive position and insulted him hoping to catch Vader off guard” Kenobi (a defensive fighter) used offensive attacks and insults to catch Vader off guard and hoped to beat him (Kenobi ain’t holding back at all, in fact he tries to catch Vader off guard and still is unable to overpower him).

Rise and Fall of Vader: “he looks so old, Vader thought, but knew he better not assume Kenobi had weakened with age as Vader moved slowly toward him” (Vader is being cautious because he is afraid Kenobi could turn him into a burnt up husk again) “Vader expected Obi-Wan to address him by his name Anakin rather than his Sith title alone. “He’s trying good confuse me” (Vader is still being cautious). Obi Wan moves fast, lunged his weapon at Vader but the Dark Lord blocked all of them with ease” (Vader keeps up with not holding back Kenobi while he himself was holding back with “EASE”)

Death Star: “if the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking rather than defending he was mistaken. Vader just sped up his timing and took the initiative forcing the old Jedi to defend. (Vader was in control of the fight from here on out). There has always been in Vader a small bit of worry. Not much; just a trace. (Vader is cautious). Vader backed Obi Wan past an Open blast door leading to the forward dock where the rebel freighter was being held under guard. (Vader was now in complete control of the fight). The old man was obviously tiring (Kenobi was tiring meaning he couldn’t keep the fight up for much longer ergo not on Vader’s level). Oh and the ANH novel says Vader actually defeated Kenobi not that Kenobi threw the fight. Oh and

"This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge."
> Jedi Battles


To recap: Kenobi (who was going all out) tried to throw Vader off guard which failed, Vader (who was holding back because of how cautious he was) was basically controlling the entire fight even leading it to a location of his choosing while Kenobi tired out, in a last ditch effort Kenobi used all of his remaining strength to attack Vader quickly but Vader easily blocked everything, Kenobi threw the fight knowing he couldn’t win but at the same time he gave the heroes enough time to escape and distracted Vader. Pre prime Vader >>> Kenobi as a swordsman.[/size]

Couldn't read past the first sentence. Please, fix your formatting.

What’s wrong with my formatting?

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:How do I do that?

Edit and lower the size

How do I do that?

Press the edit button

I did. And what next?

You hit Ctrl a and lower the size

Better?

Much better

Okay, is it readable now? I wish I could do better but I don’t know how to do the blue quotation marks.

Just put the word quote in these brackets: [], copy-paste what DC and do the same to close the quote, but put a slash before the word quote (e.g. [/quote]).

Won’t work

Maybe it's my explanation. Read this and follow the steps, then tell me the result:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t512-notifications-tagging-quoting

Basically, it should look something like this:

[quote*]insert text[/quote]

Only without the star (I had to insert that because otherwise, it'd actually quote "insert text").

Or do it with the quote feature

Thank y’all very much! I’ve fixed the comment

Np

@AlakanSpacewalker:

now let’s address this egoistical downplaying Vader hater AKA DC I cant remember his name nor do I care.

>Can't remember my name.
>Says it in the same sentence.

Ok darling .

I said a great disturbance in the force, as if an arrogant brat suddenly started flushing out his ego and is In serious need of the Mustifar treatment.

If you're going to give me that treatment at least spell it right .

Luke was still equal to Vader before the rage amp,

This much is true, I was merely addressing your claim that Luke stomping Vader is the result of mega growth and not the product of a simple rage amp caused by emotional circumstance. As far as Luke equalling him goes there's a couple of relevant points to note:

1) Vader wasn't massively above Luke as of Bespin, almost all of the primary material, and Lucas's commentary on the subject, paints a picture of Luke as a comparable if decidedly inferior swordsman.

2) You're still not addressing the key point, that being that Luke is a prodigy with potential far eclipsing that of the suited iteration of his father.

and Anakin was fighting as a superior to Dooku by forcing him up the stairs, pushing him back, and kicking him off the platform.

Ok, first off, pushing somebody back is not an indication of superiority, especially when that person is wore out from the tiring exchange that took place just prior, and bodying your formidable partner with the force on top of that. The second he gets breathing room Dooku manages to negligently swat Anakin aside while choking out Kenobi, which is what gives Anakin an opening from which to kick him, something conveniently ommitted from this travesty you call a post. So no, Anakin's not better than Dooku, and even if he was your point still wouldn't have any credibility, because yet again you ignored the core rebuttal. Taking Anakin and Luke's growth, who are 2 of the biggest prodigies in SW, and trying to apply it to Vader, who is explicitly below both in potential by a wide margin is nonsensical, and doesn't fit with the mythos at all.

Obi-Wan the “LEAST” atuned Force user went from being fodder to Dooku to scaring the crap out of him to the point where he needed to call upon Dark Side energy from across the universe as stated in the RotS novel to beat him.

Kenobi surprised a tired Dooku with a completely different style, and speed that came out of left field (Because he was fooling around and holding back like 2 seconds ago) before getting tossed bodily across a room twice by Dooku's TK. Great growth right there.

In TFA Starkiller outfenced and overpowered while Galen himself was heavily injured Vader but a year later a more powerful Starkiller with a second saber tried the same and failed because Vader has improved a lot in the less than a year time. Now imagine him with five years... you can not think he Improved much, but it’s factual unlike your bias headcanon.

Ok... first off, it wasn't a year between TFU and TFU 2 dude. Second off, quote where I said Vader didn't grow much? Oh wait, never mind, you can't, because that's not what I said. What I actually said was that Vader's growth shouldn't close the gap between him and prime Kenobi, who was in decline for multiple times longer than Vader was improving.

The Death Star novel says and I quote here: “He sill had skill just out of practice” proving that as a duelist Kenobi wasn’t too far behind, and remember that all Kenobi did while in hiding was learn how to become a better Jedi Master and study the Force with help from Qui-Gon Jinn (this did happen in the Kenobi novel bty) meaning that the Force should be much stronger with him at that point then it’s ever been which means that Dooku probably couldn’t throw him though if Palpatine helped him out then Kenobi would still be toast (like what happened in the movie).

Sure, Kenobi's connection to the force increased. However, that's not relevant given nothing puts Vader above his former master in force power. The relevant point of this discussion is his combat effectiveness, which naturally declined due to lack of practice, no active combat and an environment that causes premature aging. As far as your attempt to mitigate the gap between ROTS and ANH Kenobi goes? I'm unconvinced. Him still having skill isn't in conflict with the idea that he underwent massive decline (Supported by accolades which explicitly emphasise that Ben is nothing more than a "Shadow" of Obi-Wan as he appears in ROTS).

You can’t use this because Dooku again couldn’t overcome Kenobi with lightsaber technique meanwhile Vader’s fight with Kenobi was almost entirely saber to saber combat with no Force powers being included.

So, basically what you're telling me is that a worn out Dooku can exploit lapses in ROTS Kenobi's defence with TK while Anakin is breathing down his neck but Vader is incapable of using TK against a "Shadow" of him. Yup, I know who my money's on.

its not a fan theory it’s freaking implied in the movie.

It's not, hence why you've posted no evidence. And no other source, be it the JN, script or literally anything else makes note of this extraordinarily relevant claim, leaving only one conclusion. It doesn't exist.

Besides if Dooku did that then why could he not do the same to Anakin Especially when Anakin was about to kill him? Remember Anakin and Kenobi are equals with the Force

Because there's more that goes into disabling an opponent via TK than force superiority. Speed and technique play a role (Note that Dooku's attack is also described as "burst", implying it's vastly in excess of Dooku's standard performance). More to the point however, Kenobi and Anakin aren't equals, and posting a hindered Anakin getting his TK matched by Kenobi won't change that.

Don’t accuse me of that when all you do quote misleading sources that Contradict the movie, the novelization, and the script, for ANH in order to downplay a character that you hate while you yourself speak highly about yourself just to inflate your ego.

1) Dry your tears. My analysis here has been entirely objective, as any neutral observer can attest to, and my accusation is well founded. You've repeatedly refused to see or listen to reason, but have pretended like the tons upon tons of comparisons that negatively effect Vader don't exist. You're living in a fantasy world where the following events didn't happen:

>Vader losing a brawl to TPM Maul and claiming victory via cheap shot.
>Vader being stalemated by a "Shadow" of his former self Kenobi.
>Vader being tagged and struggling with a barely trained newbie Luke Skwalker.
>Vader being matched blow for blow by a barely trained Luke Skwalker and then getting put on his ass the second Luke got angry.

In spite of the fact that they obviously did, as a majority of the evidence at hand points too.

2) I don't hate Vader, he's one of my favourite fictional characters. I just so happen to like the idea that he sucks, it's undoubtedly what Lucas intended, and is more narratively and thematically impactful than him being some uber badass Dooku+ level blade master.

And what dose Lucas have to do with anything?

Him being the WOG on SW related matters might be the reason.

Life and Legend of Kenobi: “Obi Wan stood in and offensive position and insulted him hoping to catch Vader off guard” Kenobi (a defensive fighter) used offensive attacks and insults to catch Vader off guard and hoped to beat him (Kenobi ain’t holding back at all, in fact he tries to catch Vader off guard and still is unable to overpower him).

Kenobi hoping too doesn't mean he was successful. And I don't disagree Kenobi wasn't holding back, but neither was Vader.

Rise and Fall of Vader: “he looks so old, Vader thought, but knew he better not assume Kenobi had weakened with age as Vader moved slowly toward him” (Vader is being cautious because he is afraid Kenobi could turn him into a burnt up husk again) “Vader expected Obi-Wan to address him by his name Anakin rather than his Sith title alone. “He’s trying good confuse me” (Vader is still being cautious). Obi Wan moves fast, lunged his weapon at Vader but the Dark Lord blocked all of them with ease” (Vader keeps up with not holding back Kenobi while he himself was holding back with “EASE”

...

Death Star: “if the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking rather than defending he was mistaken. Vader just sped up his timing and took the initiative forcing the old Jedi to defend. (Vader was in control of the fight from here on out). There has always been in Vader a small bit of worry. Not much; just a trace. (Vader is cautious). Vader backed Obi Wan past an Open blast door leading to the forward dock where the rebel freighter was being held under guard. (Vader was now in complete control of the fight). The old man was obviously tiring (Kenobi was tiring meaning he couldn’t keep the fight up for much longer ergo not on Vader’s level). Oh and the ANH novel says Vader actually defeated Kenobi not that Kenobi threw the fight. Oh and

...

"This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge."
> Jedi Battles

1) Vader being cautious isn't a hinderance. If anything it's less likely to give Kenobi openings, which we know Vader frequently does.

2) OOU sources which are canonical and binding outweigh you subjectively cherry picking instances from the fight that favour one side (Which I can do in reverse btw).

3) The final quote is wrong, as indicated by the numerous contradictory one's+Lucas's word.

Now time to debunk the myth that Old Ben is = to Vader because a misleading source said so:

The idea that a binding source from an all knowing OOU narrator is wrong but your subjctive interpretation of the fight supported by random sections of different novels stitched together (Not the full fight as it's depicted across multiple sources) is correct is asinine. Only Vader fanboys dismiss OOU content when it doesn't suit them yet endorse it when it does.

SWFF 55: Vader’s internal struggle against the faint spark and his soul that was Anakin had been thrown into high relief’s by the Dark Lords feelings for his son. The emperor demanded other obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Dark Master but the words sounded hollow.

FF is an IU source, and thus fallible and unable to outweigh an OOU narrator. Dismissed.

SWFF 17: “Vader wasn’t trying to hurt his son, merely force him into submission”

FF is an IU source, and thus fallible and unable to outweigh an OOU narrator. Dismissed.

Courtship of a Princess Leia: “so this is how it would have been if Vader tried to kill me.”

Luke is an IU character with an inflated view of his father, and is therefore fallible. He's to be ignored if he contradicts an OOU narrator. Dismissed.

New Essential Chronology: Vader’s resolve began to flicker as he saw the good in his son”

NEC is an IU source, and thus fallible and unable to outweigh an OOU narrator. Dismissed.

RotJ movie: “you couldn’t bring yourself to destroy me then and I don’t think you’ll do it now”

Luke's comparison to Bespin is laughable considering the vastly differeing circumstances and he doesn't have the authority to overrule an OOU narrator anyway. Dismissed.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader: *explains the entire fight from Vader’s prospective*

Post quotes from it proving Vader was holding back definitively.

Stuart Carapola (an official author): explained how Luke wasn’t nearly as powerful as Vader merely caught him off guard with the Dark amp.

OOU Narrator>>>Author. Dismissed.

Fightsaber: “RANDOM FACTORS” always tip the balance and skill levels are always subservient to the needs of the story”

Doesn't imply Vader was hindered. Dismissed.

Yield friend I have 8 sources while you only have two or three at most.

2 or 3 OOU sources vs 8 fallible IU one's? I'll take it. Even if you were right it wouldn't matter, there are quotes that explicitly separate the emotional circumstances of the duel from the characters respective power and skill levels, which are marked as equal.

A month later and Alakan still loses.

Luke but not for the reasons most would think.

Alakan is ragdolling imo.