TPM Maul vs Sedriss

Do you have anything of substance to add or are you going to react with stupid emotes but not actually address my points?

dooku did that cruiser feat in a nexus, iirc. 

as to why vader is a good bit more powerful than dooku, sedriss's existence proves that. i mean, if u think that DE luke < TPM kenobi, then cool, good for u.

@DC77 (Reborn) @BoD Putting this here so I remember to respond to this.

honestly, imma dooku tard, but sheev already said that vader is his strongest disciple.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Do you have anything of substance to add or are you going to react with stupid emotes but not actually address my points?

its just a emote lol

@lorenzo.r.2nd:

dooku did that cruiser feat in a nexus, iirc.

A nexus in decline as early as the Bane trilogy. It would have boosted Dooku minimally, a boost that can be made up for with Dooku's TCW growth.

as to why vader is a good bit more powerful than dooku, sedriss's existence proves that.

Sedriss is "hardly the stuff of a sith apprentice". He's shit tier next to Dooku.

i mean, if u think that DE luke < TPM kenobi, then cool, good for u.

Sedriss isn't>DE Luke. He's capped beneath Vader, as you yourself noted, who is confirmed to be equal to ROTJ Luke per a multitude of sources.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:honestly, imma dooku tard, but sheev already said that vader is his strongest disciple.

Never happened.

@lorenzo.r.2nd Please don't comment further for now.

@BOD if ur gonna take over, i hope u do a good job lol

Maul as of TPM edges this.

@DC77 (Reborn) Sorry for the late reply, got caught up in uni work.

Lucas wanted to make the choreography faster to reflect the speed disparity, nothing you just cited contradicts that. That doesn't mean we judge fights solely based on the speed of them visually, but Lucas's intent was fairly clear, and should be considered given the canon policy we abide by.

Lucas' words reflect a completely out of universe sentiment with no bearing on continuity. It was referring to the logistical side. Going by this logic, TPM Maul/Kenobi >> Mace/Sidious > Vader because they physically move faster. 

They weren't, but one of them was, and that's enough.

Which happened on what a potent dark side nexus, despite what you claim:



So Dooku, in an extremely powerful dark side nexus that could conjure illusions, torment Anakin/Obi-Wan, all but completely blind their senses and emanating such power that it could be felt from orbit, was able to "casually" (no basis for that because no commentary is given of the feat, only the motions of the feat) throw a 215m cruiser. 

The fact that the forms weren't specifically designed to utilise strength doesn't refute the fact that Dooku proved capable of matching them in blade locks.

So TCW Anakin > AOTC Yoda because he could overpower Dooku in a bladelock, or was it because fighters like Anakin and Vader focus on overpowering their opponents whereas Dooku and Yoda aim to overwhelm or outduel their opponents?


Even watch the fights to see that. Yoda doesn't try to press the bladelock, he breaks it and goes back to doing acrobatics and trying to blitz Dooku.


And yes, it does refute that. If you've trained your body and disciplined your swordfighting to fight in a more technical or physically fast manner, you're not going to be able to apply nearly as much physical strength as, say, a brawler could. 

More to the point however, Dooku won't have to engage Vader the same way he did Yoda or Grievous, due to the speed/skill disparity he can outmaneovre him in a considerably shorter timeframe, well before Vader's strength wears him down.

This speed disparity is minimal. Even 19 BBY Vader has insane speed showings. As for skill, Dooku has been pressured by the likes of Savage (someone with very little technique and who relies on raw strength) and Anakin (who at this point was < Dooku in skill). Strength is just as crucial a factor as speed, And Vader's strength is a fair bit above Dooku's.

@BoD:

Lucas' words reflect a completely out of universe sentiment with no bearing on continuity.

Lucas's sentiments do have bearing on continuity, as is made abundantly clear by the canon policy we abide by. What he intended to portray within the narrative of the films matters, and I don't find your half hearted dismissal to be particularly reasonable, nor to have any logical backing. Any rationale as to why it doesn't matter?

It was referring to the logistical side.

Why is that relevant? And, more importantly, what is this even based on?

Which happened on what a potent dark side nexus, despite what you claim:

You posting a dozen unreadable sources doesn't refute my argument. At least make them easy to decipher.

So TCW Anakin > AOTC Yoda because he could overpower Dooku in a bladelock, or was it because fighters like Anakin and Vader focus on overpowering their opponents whereas Dooku and Yoda aim to overwhelm or outduel their opponents?

Examples of Anakin overpowering Dooku? I don't think it substantiates your point regardless, nor have you provided any reasoning to explain why it does, as we've seen Anakin's power is wildly inconsistent.

Even watch the fights to see that. Yoda doesn't try to press the bladelock, he breaks it and goes back to doing acrobatics and trying to blitz Dooku.

Probably because it was unsuccessful.  

And yes, it does refute that. If you've trained your body and disciplined your swordfighting to fight in a more technical or physically fast manner, you're not going to be able to apply nearly as much physical strength as, say, a brawler could.

The fact that the form allows greater appliance of strength on a regular basis because that's how it was supposed to be utilised doesn't debunk the notion that blade locks are still a viable way to contrast character's strength, they've got nothing to do with form or appliance, just pure physicality.

This speed disparity is minimal. Even 19 BBY Vader has insane speed showings.

Rebuttals above.

As for skill, Dooku has been pressured by the likes of Savage (someone with very little technique and who relies on raw strength)

This is false.

and Anakin (who at this point was < Dooku in skill).

Anakin was a good deal closer to Dooku in skill than Vader is.

Strength is just as crucial a factor as speed, And Vader's strength is a fair bit above Dooku's.

Debunked thoroughly across this post.

so u have never seen anakin overpower dooku in TCW ( which is why i assume u are asking for proof of it), but u still somehow say that savage overpowering him is false? now that is interesting.

@lorenzo.r.2nd:

so u have never seen anakin overpower dooku in TCW ( which is why i assume u are asking for proof of it),

No... I'm asking for proof because it's been a while since I last watched TCW and I genuinely don't remember. I also clarified that it doesn't matter regardless.

but u still somehow say that savage overpowering him is false?

Because it is, as has been explained a multitude of times Dooku was never in any danger for the majority of the fight, and the only time he was is an inconsistency we can ignore (I've re-watched this fight on YT dozens of times because of how frequently it's brought up, Anakin vs Dooku seldom is).

now that is interesting.

Lol. Just lol. If you were trying to find anything in there to make me look stupid you just failed spectacularly.

ok?

Lucas's sentiments do have bearing on continuity, as is made abundantly clear by the canon policy we abide by. What he intended to portray within the narrative of the films matters, and I don't find your half hearted dismissal to be particularly reasonable, nor to have any logical backing. Any rationale as to why it doesn't matter?

So you hold TPM Kenobi and Maul > Mace and Sidious because they were fighting at a faster pace, then? 

Why is that relevant? And, more importantly, what is this even based on?

He was literally talking about the limitations of the suit and how Prowse could barely move in it. Of course they couldn't have fast paced fights in them. We already know Vader is much faster than that from the comics, novels, depictions of the fight in other media, etc.

You posting a dozen unreadable sources doesn't refute my argument. At least make them easy to decipher.

I literally summarised them right underneath it:

So Dooku, in an extremely powerful dark side nexus that could conjure illusions, torment Anakin/Obi-Wan, all but completely blind their senses and emanating such power that it could be felt from orbit,

Examples of Anakin overpowering Dooku?

https://youtu.be/Q6zGXR32dNE?t=39


Forces Dooku back with a shove.

https://youtu.be/eQATBFIZ13o?t=122

Dooku's telekinesis struggles to hold back an angry Anakin's lightsaber. It's not until it's about to touch him that he gains a sudden burst of strength and shoves the chair back.

https://youtu.be/DOZ4SpuOmH4?t=64

Does it again here.

https://youtu.be/DOZ4SpuOmH4?t=68

Visibly strains an angry Dooku and pushes his blade back.

I don't think it substantiates your point regardless, nor have you provided any reasoning to explain why it does, as we've seen Anakin's power is wildly inconsistent.

His performances against Dooku are pretty consistent, actually. 

If Dooku is being overwhelmed by a physically inferior version of Vader in TCW Anakin, it stands to reason that Vader's strength would have the same result. 

Probably because it was unsuccessful.  

Yoda literally holds the lock for two seconds before breaking it by going back into acrobatics and speed, which are his strength. Not to mention Dooku had a leverage and height advantage. In that time, Yoda then shoves Dooku's blade away. 

The fact that the form allows greater appliance of strength on a regular basis because that's how it was supposed to be utilised doesn't debunk the notion that blade locks are still a viable way to contrast character's strength, they've got nothing to do with form or appliance, just pure physicality.

So we're using a bladelock that lasted three seconds (which ends with Yoda shoving Dooku's blade away).  

Rebuttals above.

Your rebuttal rests on the idea that speed > strength in a duel, and that Dooku has such an advantage that he can basically dance around Vader in his prime. This is not true. 

This is false.

Which part? Savage drives him back with enough strength that Dooku's skill is not enough to stop Savage sending him flying backwards and dropping his lightsaber.

Anakin was a good deal closer to Dooku in skill than Vader is.

And still solidly below him.

Debunked thoroughly across this post.

No it hasn't been. If anything, you've proven the opposite. Dooku has had his bladelocks broken by Yoda and TCW Anakin, one who had a height and leverage disadvantage and who relies more on speed than strength and another who relies more on physically overpowering his enemies, straining Dooku and even knocking an angry Dooku's blade down a couple of times.

idk if u see like i see it, but him getting angry and getting a stamina, strength, and speed boost is what lets him match dooku. his skill doesnt suddenly move up a level. dooku is still a good deal more skilled than anakin by TCW

@BoD:

So you hold TPM Kenobi and Maul > Mace and Sidious because they were fighting at a faster pace, then?

No, as I explicitly clarified on page one, it's not the visual speed that matters to me, it's what Lucas intended to portray within the narrative.

He was literally talking about the limitations of the suit and how Prowse could barely move in it. Of course they couldn't have fast paced fights in them.

He never references that in the TPM quote as far as I recall, he exclusively focuses on the actual portrayal within the context of the story (e.g Vader, Kenobi and Luke being either young, old or not fully in one piece).

We already know Vader is much faster than that from the comics, novels, depictions of the fight in other media, etc.

Elaborate on the specifics which place him above TPM Kenobi.

I literally summarised them right underneath it:

And I'm supposed to take you by your word? Just make them readable lol, it's not hard.

Forces Dooku back with a shove.

(...)

Visibly strains an angry Dooku and pushes his blade back.

These instances are the only relevant one's (TK has nothing to do with physical strength), and they prove nothing. We know Anakin is capable of accessing Yoda+ power occassionally, just not consistently, and more importantly, we have other instances where Dooku's strength proves too much for Anakin (See S4 where Anakin's 2 hands can't overpower Dooku's 1 while he's lying on his ass doing fuck all). So, basically you've proved my theory. Sometimes Anakin's stronger, sometimes he's not. Thanks a lot for that.

His performances against Dooku are pretty consistent, actually.

As shown above that's not the case.

If Dooku is being overwhelmed by a physically inferior version of Vader in TCW Anakin, it stands to reason that Vader's strength would have the same result.

Proof Vader is stronger?

Yoda literally holds the lock for two seconds before breaking it by going back into acrobatics and speed, which are his strength.

And why would he do that if he could straight up overpower him? Wait, it's because he can't.

Not to mention Dooku had a leverage and height advantage. In that time, Yoda then shoves Dooku's blade away.

Which is a detriment to Yoda in every fight he's in, yet never seems to affect him.

Your rebuttal rests on the idea that speed > strength in a duel, and that Dooku has such an advantage that he can basically dance around Vader in his prime. This is not true.

No, it rests on the idea that speed, skill and power>strength in a duel. And Dooku can dance around Vader. He's performed that feat against considerably superior foes without much difficulty.

Which part? Savage drives him back with enough strength that Dooku's skill is not enough to stop Savage sending him flying backwards and dropping his lightsaber.

Due to an amp. Dooku was humiliating him even after being deprived of his weapon.

And still solidly below him.

Which is besides the point.

Sedriss has the knowledge and varying Force powers at his disposal, though Maul is clearly going to be the better fighter. I'm assuming they start within striking distance of one another, in which case it doesn't bode well for Sedriss in martial combat.

Maul shreds

Sedriss contending with DE Luke is better than anything Maul's got

Maul cans him

Maul solidly

Maul.