ESB Luke vs AOTC Anakin

Morals on




R e a s o n?

Anakin wins easily if he's in one of his flash of brilliance states. Loses at base though.

Anakin matching Dooku is better than Luke matching Vader.

Luke didn't match Vader, Anakin at least pressed Dooku. Anakin wins.

ESB Luke > SK :philmm:

I was just thinking about this. If Anakin has two lightsabers he wins. But at base he loses

Anakin maybe wins

AotC Anakin pressuring Dooku > ESB Luke holding his own against suit Vader.

Luke doesn't have the experience needed to take Anakin yet. Without provocation Anakin likely won't be displaying the same level of power he shown in the Dooku fight, but he still has all the advantages of a seasoned warrior over a rookie with the same level of natural ability.

Padawan Anakin would give Jedi Knight Luke a hard time, Novice Luke has very little chance. And before you bring up his Vader fight remember Vader was completely toying with him, putting no effort into it and still demolished him. Meanwhile Anakin forced Dooku to exert himself keep in mind this is the same Dooku that gave Yoda a hard time twice leaving him exhausted after both fights. Meaning this Anakin isn’t too far beneath Yoda.

O-Siri wrote:Luke doesn't have the experience needed to take Anakin yet. Without provocation Anakin likely won't be displaying the same level of power he shown in the Dooku fight, but he still has all the advantages of a seasoned warrior over a rookie with the same level of natural ability.

Legends Luke does still have a good amount of experience. Three years of battlefield experience, as well as duels against Baron Tagge, Kharys, Celeste Morne, and Darth Vader (in Splinter of the Mind's Eye). Luke by this point has fought in more battles than Anakin (due to Luke taking part in a war over the course of three years, while Anakin has been studying in a temple for ten), and Luke has been in more life-or-death duels than Anakin. What Anakin has over Luke is academic knowledge, not practical experience. Also, let's not forget Luke's prodigious learning curve. Fightsaber claims an observing Jedi Master would be astonished at Luke's instantaneous learning in battle.

That said, it's hard to argue whether or not ten years of academic knowledge beats three years of live combat experience. But we do have Vader's line from Shadows of the Empire which directly correlates ESB Luke with Anakin, and Vader believes Luke to be the more powerful of the two. Granted, Vader has some serious serious bias, so take that with a hefty amount of salt.

Ultimately, I see the two as near equal. Whichever loses their cool or has a flash of brilliance first would likely take it. If either has an edge, I'd give it to Luke. Luke managed to drive Vader from the carbon freezing platform, and managed to land a lightsaber hit to Vader's shoulder during the duel. Anakin did bubkis to Dooku during their confrontation.

Underachiever599 wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Luke doesn't have the experience needed to take Anakin yet. Without provocation Anakin likely won't be displaying the same level of power he shown in the Dooku fight, but he still has all the advantages of a seasoned warrior over a rookie with the same level of natural ability.

Legends Luke does still have a good amount of experience. Three years of battlefield experience, as well as duels against Baron Tagge, Kharys, Celeste Morne, and Darth Vader (in Splinter of the Mind's Eye). Luke by this point has fought in more battles than Anakin (due to Luke taking part in a war over the course of three years, while Anakin has been studying in a temple for ten), and Luke has been in more life-or-death duels than Anakin. What Anakin has over Luke is academic knowledge, not practical experience. Also, let's not forget Luke's prodigious learning curve. Fightsaber claims an observing Jedi Master would be astonished at Luke's instantaneous learning in battle.

That said, it's hard to argue whether or not ten years of academic knowledge beats three years of live combat experience. But we do have Vader's line from Shadows of the Empire which directly correlates ESB Luke with Anakin, and Vader believes Luke to be the more powerful of the two. Granted, Vader has some serious serious bias, so take that with a hefty amount of salt.

Ultimately, I see the two as near equal. Whichever loses their cool or has a flash of brilliance first would likely take it. If either has an edge, I'd give it to Luke. Luke managed to drive Vader from the carbon freezing platform, and managed to land a lightsaber hit to Vader's shoulder during the duel. Anakin did bubkis to Dooku during their confrontation.

You might have a point. Admittingly I haven't read much OT EU material, though you certainly get the inexperience vibe from the movies alone.

Anakin wins, and it’s not very close. Anakin contended with a much better opponent and nearly equaled him for a time.

MasterCilghal wrote:Anakin wins, and it’s not very close. Anakin contended with a much better opponent and nearly equaled him for a time.

Luke faced vader a far more formidable opponent than dooku


Anakin was Merely doing budkis to tyranus then he practically get one shotted after getting his arm chopped off

The lord of hunger wrote:Luke faced vader a far more formidable opponent than dooku

Proof? All evidence I see points to the contrary. Take what Pablo Hidalgo said, for example, addressing Anakin vs Vader (note that this came out before ROTS, so it could be referring to AOTC Anakin):

The lord of hunger wrote:Anakin was Merely doing budkis to tyranus then he practically get one shotted after getting his arm chopped off

On the contrary, the novel seems to imply Anakin performed quite well against Dooku, even though he was clearly not equal, at least in his normal state. 

The lord of hunger wrote:

MasterCilghal wrote:Anakin wins, and it’s not very close. Anakin contended with a much better opponent and nearly equaled him for a time.

Luke faced vader a far more formidable opponent than dooku


Anakin was Merely doing budkis to tyranus then he practically get one shotted after getting his arm chopped off

Vader and Dooku are comparable so forcing Dooku to exert himself is more impressive than being toyed with by Vader who was literally saying “all too easy” and no, the AotC novel makes it clear that Dooku had to work to beat Anakin, now imagine how much stronger Clone Wars Anakin would be before he became a knight.

MasterCilghal wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:Luke faced vader a far more formidable opponent than dooku

Proof? All evidence I see points to the contrary. Take what Pablo Hidalgo said, for example, addressing Anakin vs Vader (note that this came out before ROTS, so it could be referring to AOTC Anakin):

The lord of hunger wrote:Anakin was Merely doing budkis to tyranus then he practically get one shotted after getting his arm chopped off

On the contrary, the novel seems to imply Anakin performed quite well against Dooku, even though he was clearly not equal, at least in his normal state. 

 
well here is my proof vader was more formidable after ANH and more powerful than ever during esb:  

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.

-- Insider #62

Once Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, the black-cloaked Darth Sidious has fulfilled his masterful plan and taken control of the entire galaxy, with the equally formidable Dark Lord of the Sith by his side.

-- Galactic Files: Emperor Palpatine

When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet.

-- Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope

i concede in this point anakin prove to be tough work for the count in the novelization however  i still consider luke is performance against his father more impressive considering that the former was already stated to be his match and the dark lord was impressed by his fightning prowess 

Insider #62: Fightsaber wrote:In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

Skywalker is lured into the Dark Lord's sinister trap, but avoids being frozen and impresses Vader with his fighting prowess.


Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty.

Challenge and impress =/= good fight. Anakin actually tired Dooku, which is more impressive than Luke.

The lord of hunger wrote:well here is my proof vader was more formidable after ANH and more powerful than ever during esb:  

The issue is that those quotes do not address Vader’s standing next to Dooku, simply Vader’s power and growth throughout the OT, You haven’t disproven my point. Regardless, gin the quote I presented Hidalgo is speaking on Lucas’s behalf, making it arguably G-canon. If you want further confirmation, here we have Lucas himself saying Vader lost a ”lot of potential and power” after Mustafar and is still in this condition by ESB (it’s from the ESB commentary btw): 



So what we’re left with is Vader being below his ROTS incarnation, potentially and likely AOTC, considering Lucas has also said we’re never seen true jedi fighting, which is what Hidalgo was referencing in the insider article. 

All this is further supported by some C-canon sources: 

Star Wars encyclopedia wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

The lord of hunger wrote:i concede in this point anakin prove to be tough work for the count in the novelization however  i still consider luke is performance against his father more impressive considering that the former was already stated to be his match and the dark lord was impressed by his fightning prowess 

I completely agree with you on this, however since I place Vader below Dooku/ AOTC Anakin based on the previous argument, Luke challenging Vader is not enough for him to placed above Anakin, especially considering that the latter is stated to possess the same amount of raw power as Yoda, raw power which he could get access to in a “flashes of brilliance” state, which is what he experienced against Dooku in AOTC:



In such a situation Luke simply wouldn’t stand a chance, as we know Luke is “not that powerful a Jedi” compared to Yoda per an insider article, even as of ROTJ.

MasterCilghal wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:well here is my proof vader was more formidable after ANH and more powerful than ever during esb:  

The issue is that those quotes do not address Vader’s standing next to Dooku, simply Vader’s power and growth throughout the OT, You haven’t disproven my point. Regardless, gin the quote I presented Hidalgo is speaking on Lucas’s behalf, making it arguably G-canon. If you want further confirmation, here we have Lucas himself saying Vader lost a ”lot of potential and power” after Mustafar and is still in this condition by ESB (it’s from the ESB commentary btw): 



So what we’re left with is Vader being below his ROTS incarnation, potentially and likely AOTC, considering Lucas has also said we’re never seen true jedi fighting, which is what Hidalgo was referencing in the insider article. 

All this is further supported by some C-canon sources: 

Star Wars encyclopedia wrote:Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.

The lord of hunger wrote:i concede in this point anakin prove to be tough work for the count in the novelization however  i still consider luke is performance against his father more impressive considering that the former was already stated to be his match and the dark lord was impressed by his fightning prowess 

I completely agree with you on this, however since I place Vader below Dooku/ AOTC Anakin based on the previous argument, Luke challenging Vader is not enough for him to placed above Anakin, especially considering that the latter is stated to possess the same amount of raw power as Yoda, raw power which he could get access to in a “flashes of brilliance” state, which is what he experienced against Dooku in AOTC:



In such a situation Luke simply wouldn’t stand a chance, as we know Luke is “not that powerful a Jedi” compared to Yoda per an insider article, even as of ROTJ.

vader is superior to dooku even by canon sources or literally stated by palpatine:








2-glad we concede on that point nothing to discuss in there

Is that even a question?

HellfireUnit wrote:Is that even a question?

for most users in here yes lol

The lord of hunger wrote:vader is superior to dooku even by canon sources or literally stated by palpatine:

This is a legends fight. Per the rules of SI unless mentioned otherwise, and in this case it isn’t, a fight will only take the legends continuity into account, and you’ve yet to present me evidence Vader is beyond Dooku in legends (which is contradicted by Lucas anyway): 

Lucas has never said anything about Vader compared to any other Force user except Sidious. Pre-ANH Vader already has comparable Force feats to Dooku's, and that's without his huge growth between ANH and ESB.

Also, "challenge" is such a vague measurement. It could mean it took Vader considerable effort, or it could mean that Vader had to apply a bit more effort than he thought he would have to in the duel. Either way, it's hardly comparable to AOTC Anakin pressing Dooku.

MasterCilghal wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:vader is superior to dooku even by canon sources or literally stated by palpatine:

This is a legends fight. Per the rules of SI unless mentioned otherwise, and in this case it isn’t, a fight will only take the legends continuity into account, and you’ve yet to present me evidence Vader is beyond Dooku in legends (which is contradicted by Lucas anyway): 

if we stick to legends only then: 


Vader is the Emperor's most powerful servant:

Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base.

-- Handbook 3: Dark Empire


The Emperor considers Vader to be his minor masterpiece, potentially putting the latter above his other apprentices:

My Empire, so perfect in vision, has at times proved infuriating in its implementation because of the sloth and stupidity of my underlings. Even Vader, my minor masterpiece, is often weak and indecisive. It is fortunate that I have an eternity to outlive his errors.

-- Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side


Vader is perhaps the ultimate master of the dark side after the Emperor.

Before Joruus C'baoth come out of his seclusion to threaten the New Republic, Luke Skywalker had to face perhaps the ultimate masters of the Dark Side, Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine.

-- Heir To The Empire Sourcebook