AotC Anakin vs RotJ Luke

Standard shit. Fight takes place in tatooine, outside of the Lars home.

Luke given his parity to Ben Kenobi by virtue of being = RotJ Vader

Luke. His parity with Vader impresses me more than anything Anakin has combatively speaking.

His fight against Dooku? Lol

Luke everytime.

AOTC Anakin obviously.

Enlighten me as too why it is "obvious" @Ziggy.

OT-Luke, handily.

Luke

Ziggy wrote:AOTC Anakin obviously.

So AotC Anakin > RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFUII Vader > TFUI Vader >>>>>> early-game Galen Marek?

It's more believable than Luke = RotJ Vader >> ANH Vader > Mustafar Vader >>>>>> AotC Anakin

Vorpal Blade wrote:It's more believable than Luke = RotJ Vader >> ANH Vader > Mustafar Vader >>>>>> AotC Anakin

How is it more believable? 

For one thing, you have to be willing to grant the PT-era a ridiculously large scaling chain starting at BoTFU Galen Marek, which maybe you're willing to do. But you also have to seriously argue that Anakin as a padawan, who was below the B-team and the other tier 7 duelists of the era like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, etc., was "obviously" above the Sith Lord who Palpatine labeled the "greatest Jedi killer of all time" and couldn't replace successfully despite 25 years of searching. Obi Wan apparently regressed so far from RotS to ANH (despite multiple sources indicating otherwise) that he became weaker than his AotC self (??), Shaak Ti was secretly the real boss of TFU (??), and Ferus thought some sub-sub-sub AotC Anakin 19 BBY Vader scrub moved faster than anyone he had ever seen sans Yoda despite having been one of Anakin's primary rivals. Aside from hyper-literally listening to fight choreography commentary, this doesn't fit with the narrative at all.

And you don't need ANH Vader > Mustafar Vader for RotJ Luke > AotC Anakin.

The Ellimist wrote:For one thing, you have to be willing to grant the PT-era a ridiculously large scaling chain starting at BoTFU Galen Marek, which maybe you're willing to do.

Not that ridiculous; cf. Galen's fight with Shaak Ti or him getting trampled by a shadow guard.

The Ellimist wrote:But you also have to seriously argue that Anakin as a padawan, who was below the B-team and the other tier 7 duelists of the era like Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi Mundi, etc., was "obviously" above the Sith Lord who Palpatine labeled the "greatest Jedi killer of all time" and couldn't replace successfully despite 25 years of searching.

1. Anakin's rank in the Jedi Order brings no constraint to his skill with the blade or the Force. For example, Kenobi's showing against Maul, despite being rage amped, is more than most Jedi Masters in the Order would ever achieve in combat.

2. Not really convinced that AotC Anakin is below B-team. Anakin gave Dooku an incredibly good fight in AotC, compared especially to how Dooku clowned Kenobi. Not to mention Gillard has said that Anakin was a better swordsman than Kenobi in AotC. I've yet to see anything from B-team that beats Anakin's feat against Dooku there.

3. I don't care what Sidious called him - we have a quote saying he was filtering through dark side adepts (lowly wizards) to replace Vader; plus the existence of Jerec, whose power rivals that of Vader despite only having a fraction of the Sith knowledge Vader had access to. Throw in everything confirming Vader's powers were drastically reduced following Mustafar, and it doesn't seem so ridiculous.

The Ellimist wrote: Obi Wan apparently regressed so far from RotS to ANH (despite multiple sources indicating otherwise) that he became weaker than his AotC self (??)

Provide the quotes please? The only one I can remember is a pre-2000 trading card about his "Jedi powers".

--

You have to ask what's more believabe, and also what fits better in overall intent. I think that Lucas' vision - which he explicitly stated multiple times - makes a lot more sense.

Very interesting how MP ignored several of Elm's arguments. One would almost think he didn't have counters.

Please remember site civility rules.

Luke overwhelms.

The Ellimist wrote:

Ziggy wrote:AOTC Anakin obviously.

So AotC Anakin > RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFUII Vader > TFUI Vader >>>>>> early-game Galen Marek?

Why would I have a problem with AotC Anakin being very much above early game Galen?  

Not that I think the chain has merit when examining the links : 


RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFUII Vader > TFUI Vader


Power increments at the very best, or no improvement at all.

I discount the quote claiming ESB is a >> lightsaber combatant than ANH.  That old quote was prefaced on Vader not having fought anyone since Kenobi.  But this isn't true.  He fought the Maul clone and Galen among others.  It also doesn't gel with G-canon.  Where ESB Luke gave Vader a decent fight by all accounts (including word of god) despite being inferior to Ben Kenobi. And on the subject of Luke, there is no feasible way he's touching AOTC Anakin given he has either the same or less potential and a weeks training compared to Ani's decade.  Yet he's beyond Vader's ability to dominate and holds his own.

As you wish Elm.

Ziggy wrote:Why would I have a problem with AotC Anakin being very much above early game Galen?  

Well, it really messes up the scaling; almost every environmental feat until the level of OCW Mace/Yoda becomes irrelevant compared to just scaling from TFU. It also makes things really hard for the TOR camp, but I dunno if you'd care.

I discount the quote claiming ESB is a >> lightsaber combatant than ANH.  That old quote was prefaced on Vader not having fought anyone since Kenobi.  But this isn't true.  He fought the Maul clone and Galen among others.

That doesn't require you to throw out the quote. The Maul fight was potentially illusory, and if you think Galen is sub-padawan Anakin it wouldn't really provide meaningful practice compared to fighting RotS Obi Wan. You still have the period of several years from TFU to RotJ, and multiple sources confirming Vader's power growth; it doesn't have to be a oneshot chain to matter.

  It also doesn't gel with G-canon.  Where ESB Luke gave Vader a decent fight by all accounts (including word of god)

How does that contradict the quote? You can be "far more formidable" and still get challenged.

despite being inferior to Ben Kenobi.

Where is that stated?

And on the subject of Luke, there is no feasible way he's touching AOTC Anakin given he has either

10 year old Vitiate seemed to be more powerful than 10 year old Anakin, or 17 year old Palpatine. Power growth isn't just a matter of Force potential, especially early in training; Luke could've gotten more accelerated teachings, Anakin's growth may have been deliberately restricted, Luke could have been better focused, a faster learner, etc. Anakin probably grew astronomically more from AotC to RotS than he had in the three year period prior.

Overall you'd have to argue that Ferus, Jax and Nick were collectively deluded about Vader's power, that Shaak Ti was secretly the strongest boss of TFU, and that when Vader was eager to fight Obi Wan in the Death Star novel before gauging Obi Wan's power as of ANH, he was delusional and didn't know that he had fallen far below RotS Obi Wan. It doesn't fit Legends at all to squeeze in some commentary about fight choreography that if taken super-literally implies the random Jedi in the Geonosis arena > Vader too.

Ziggy wrote:

The Ellimist wrote:

Ziggy wrote:AOTC Anakin obviously.

So AotC Anakin > RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFUII Vader > TFUI Vader >>>>>> early-game Galen Marek?

Why would I have a problem with AotC Anakin being very much above early game Galen?  

Not that I think the chain has merit when examining the links : 


RotJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFUII Vader > TFUI Vader


Power increments at the very best, or no improvement at all.

I discount the quote claiming ESB is a >> lightsaber combatant than ANH.  That old quote was prefaced on Vader not having fought anyone since Kenobi.  But this isn't true.  He fought the Maul clone and Galen among others.  It also doesn't gel with G-canon.  Where ESB Luke gave Vader a decent fight by all accounts (including word of god) despite being inferior to Ben Kenobi. 

And on the subject of Luke, there is no feasible way he's touching AOTC Anakin given he has either

Umm, The Maul vs Vader comic is no longer in-continuity. It was recently threw it out of continuity, being deemed as "non-continuity" in May 2019, so it's not a valid source anymore, unless if the canonicty gets retconned a third time, we can't use the Resurrection comic for any purpose.

well here are my 2 cents :

KF vader >= IH enraged anakin > LS RoTS anakin = enraged RoTJ luke = RoTJ vader (not hindered by LS emotions towards his son) = RoTS dooku >
LS RoTJ luke (not abusing the dark side) > AoTC anakin >= ESB luke

@dark_globe

enraged RoTJ luke = RoTJ vader (not hindered by LS emotions towards his son)

Vader wasn't hindered by LS emotions towards his son though...

Also, enraged Luke punked Vader, and base Luke is his canonical equal so I have no clue where you got Enraged Luke=Vader from.

And finally, why do you believe Vader>ROTS Dooku?