Yoda V Sidious (Rematch)

Watch Revenge of the Sith

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:@Greysentinel365

Reasons why? If it's Sidious winning when they fought I'll just copy paste what I wrote to dark-sith123:

Yes and TPM Kenobi beat Maul. Guess TPM Kenobi>Maul is now a thing...

Seriously though their power mutualy overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only falling because he was lighter (and thus was thrown further) and because he was standing on the edge of the pod meanwhile Sidious was standing nowhere close to his end. You swap around their positions and make Sidious the same weight as Yoda then he goes flying as well and loses the fight. These environmental factors will not come into play given we're discussing a fight on neutral ground and thus no arguments can be made in regards to Sidious winning.

Yoda, on the other hand, overpowered Sidious in 3 blade locks (indicating he possess superior augmentative ability and more than likely superior reserves), drove him back causing Sidious to take refuge in the Senate chamber, disarmed him and was clearly overpowering Sidious in two separate Force Clashes. I don't think I really need to explain who is superior.

Well apart from the two dozen or so sources that say Sids won and is more powerful. Which cute as the denial is, still exist. The fact that if you want be picky on choreo AotC Kenobi has overpowered multiple of Dooku's saberlocks so yeah TPM Kenobi > Maul, AotC Kenobi > Dooku. Trying to use saberlocks as proof of something like this is something Kbro tried years ago dude. Kbro. Yep you're there.

Even if you want say Yoda had the edge, he only got it by burning himself out completely.


While Sids was still good to go. Hence why Yoda realises he's outmatched and runs. As stated by the two dozen or so sources. Which don't contradict the fight, they contextualise it.

Yoda loses.

Even the most generous source to Yoda, which states he was Sidious' equal, says he couldn't win despite having an environmental advantage. Even if you believe the two are equally powerful and Yoda more skilled, none of this matters. Sidious can disarm him whenever he chooses to with lightning, and then it would become a pure Force battle. In such a contest, Yoda only has telekinesis to fall back on, which isn't an inherently lethal ability. Sidious can endure being tossed into his chair many more times than Yoda being burned with lightning. And Yoda is unable to deflect the lightning back so long as Sidious continues to pour more and more power into him, as the junior novelization shows:

Palpatine’s lips curled in anticipated triumph, and the dark side pulsed as he drew even more Force lightning to his bidding.

Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod.


The text notes how Yoda is ready to retaliate with the accumulated energy once the Emperor ceases his assault. But the Emperor doesn't stop, so Yoda can't strike back; he can do nothing but hold out until he's overwhelmed; he's trapped. You might point out that Palpatine couldn't contain the power either, but that is only a problem in close quarters. At a far enough distance, the Emperor is spared from the explosion, as the energy will build only in Yoda's hands, so it will only hit Yoda upon detonation. The junior novelization also happens to showcase this in practise:

Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.


As you can see, all Palpatine has to do is to keep his distance, and Yoda can never hope to reach him before the energy becomes too much for him to contain. And once the energy inevitably blows in Yoda's hands and damages him, the Emperor, unharmed and not disoriented, would fire again, and the same result would happen over and over again until Yoda wouldn't be able to keep it up. He would be trapped in an inescapable loop in which his strength would ineluctably wane and he would die. So Sidious wins. Again. Every time.

Yeah, I agree with Az and Grey, Sidious comes out on top. Although it’s a close fight.

@arkhamasylum3 Here are the Sidious>Yoda quotes from the ROTS novel  

[quote="Azronger"Even the most generous source to Yoda, which states he was Sidious' equal, says he couldn't win despite having an environmental advantage.][/quote]

What environmental advantage? Even the before the fight moved to the Chancellors Podium Yoda was legit driving him back in his office as per both the Script and the Junior Novel:

"YODA: Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be, as is your faith in the dark side of the Force.
Their swords CLASH. The battle is extremely fast and furious.
PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena. YODA makes a giant leap into the control pod. The sword fighting is intense in the confined space.": Revenge of the Sith Script

” Faith in your new apprentice, misplaced may be”. As is your faith in the dark side of the Force. Even if Palpatine killed him here, today, the dark side would not truly win. For the dark side was hatred, despair – all things the forces of ruin and decay. Powerful, they were, to tear down and destroy, but they could not build anything lasting. Palpatine’s ten-thousand-year Galactic Empire would not last a lifetime.
The thought gave Yoda renewed energy, and he pressed his attack. He drove Palpatine back across the room, into the Chancellors podium.”: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel

Azronger wrote:Sidious can disarm him whenever he chooses to with lightning,

This I agree with.

The text notes how Yoda is ready to retaliate with the accumulated energy once the Emperor ceases his assault. But the Emperor doesn't stop, so Yoda can't strike back; he can do nothing but hold out until he's overwhelmed; he's trapped. You might point out that Palpatine couldn't contain the power either, but that is only a problem in close quarters. At a far enough distance, the Emperor is spared from the explosion, as the energy will build only in Yoda's hands, so it will only hit Yoda upon detonation. The junior novelization also happens to showcase this in practise:

Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

As you can see, all Palpatine has to do is to keep his distance, and Yoda can never hope to reach him before the energy becomes too much for him to contain. And once the energy inevitably blows in Yoda's hands and damages him, the Emperor, unharmed and not disoriented, would fire again, and the same result would happen over and over again until Yoda wouldn't be able to keep it up. He would be trapped in an inescapable loop in which his strength would ineluctably wane and he would die. So Sidious wins. Again. Every time.

While that could be a viable winning condition for Sidious, you make it seem like he can't run out of stamina or that lightning isn't at all taxing for him to use. Make note that in the Senior Novelization, the one where Sidious didn't even get hit by the rebound explosion like in other sources, he still ended up being utterly exhausted after the fight despite not having to endure the same level of punishment Yoda had to take:

"The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail.": RotS Senior Novel

I think that they are pretty equal on a neutral ground. Most of the quotes of Sidious superiority are more based on the evolution of the sith vs the stagnancy of the jedi that result in the sith victory globally, not the win of Sidious against Yoda.

I knew this thread would invoke a great deal of discussion. Will it become a 10 page thread like on CV or will it fall into the abyss and die.

It won't be as great as my Sidious vs Vader sabers only thread

@GodEmperorTarkin Nothing is as great as that masterpiece.

Gonna be out for a decent portion of today. Will respond when I get home.

Yes under normal circumstances you'd be right though in case you didn't notice Yoda requires a walking stick to walk without physical augmentation showing that he's clearly not as strong as Sidious who is in a perfectly healthy condition.

This suspect argument still fails as you are making a baseless assertion. Yoda requiring a stick due to his old age doesn't undisputably dictate that Yoda is physically weaker then Sidious(just that he suffers from more arthritis). There are people alive today who are stronger than me who use a cane! Healthfulness does not equal strength. Hell, we have even seen Sidious use a cane in the past. You still have yet to prove explicit contradiction which is REQUIRED.

Elaborate on what advantages Yoda could have had.

I don't have to, the existence of the quotes stating Sidious and Yoda's equality in sabers means that we can infer further explanations. Those factors could include the position where he approaches the blade, the high ground he possesses when engaging in the blade lock, the size of the blade(this could give him more stability), or perhaps he is better in that specific position, etc. We are dealing with high-level force users the idea that we can posit our own(slightly contradictory interpretations) in lieu of the numerous complex variables which go into a sword fight is asinine.

The quote is also referenced in the JN.

Fair enough was not aware. Good insight.

Once again you seem to be interpreting this as an actual rebuttal to the Sidious>Yoda quotes which it isn't

No, I am using this to posit an alternative interpretation which highlights the infallibility of the statement.

Anyway, in case you haven't noticed Sidious doesn't retreat in basically any of his saber duels (he always likes to be the aggressor) so the fact that he does so here indicates he's most likely being forcibly pushed back and is on the losing end. Hell if you look at his fight with Mace Windu despite also facing an equal in that fight he doesn't retreat indicating Yoda's probably superior in sabers.

The idea that stylistic discontinuity dictates superiority is absurd. We are dealing with duelists who likely have incredibly high fight IQs. The setting and combatant dictate the strategy. Fights are ebb and flow matches, and in specific scenarios, it's better to be moving backward. I fail to see how this indicates superiority in sabers in place of prior evidence.

Well for starters we have their Force Clash after Sheev was disarmed where Yoda begins to arc his Lightning back at him and the script notes it looks as though Sidious was "doomed".

1. The statement says, "It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed." This statement is not a declaration of fact rather a direction of screenwriting. It's meant to be a surprising scene for the audience, and we are to believe that he is doomed. This does not mean, however, that he actually is(he evidently wasn't). Indeed there are plenty of times in screenwriting, where statements such as these are deliberately false for narrative effect. I fail to see how this is a direct contradiction.

2. Per your previous statement on the validity of the script- Lucas' discontinuity of opinion on the subject of Sidious vs. Yoda is exemplified by his prior version of the fight(Sidious gets largely stomped). Due to this being an intermediary script, we do not know he is operating from the same character preceptions depicted within ROTS, and thusly this could be perceived as a contradiction. I think it is LIKELY that the script is a valid source, but I do not view it as G-canon evidence.

Then you have the final Lightning clash where Yoda clearly begins to overpower Sidious as is evidenced by Sidious's face contorting in horror and Yoda clearly remaining unfazed by Sidious's Lightning.

In what world does this constitute direct contradiction... Ambiguous character acting can't be used to override actual quotes. Even if we are to believe Sidious feels terror, this still does not mean he is losing or being overpowered. He could be shocked at how well Yoda is resisting his lightning. There are a myriad of other explanations which could explain this behavior, and we should default to those explanations due to prior statements. As far as Yoda's resolve goes, this speaks to his character more than anything else. Confident even in the face of death. And isn't this contradictory to the notion which you posited that Sidious and Yoda are equally overpowered?

Seriously though their power mutualy overloaded and sent them both flying with Yoda only falling because he was lighter (and thus was thrown further) and because he was standing on the edge of the pod meanwhile Sidious was standing nowhere close to his end.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that they are overloaded to the same degree. Because, as of now, we can assume that they aren't due to the secondary sources.

DS0, Grey and Az absolutely destroyed.

R.I.P HP.

xolthol wrote:I think that they are pretty equal on a neutral ground. Most of the quotes of Sidious superiority are more based on the evolution of the sith vs the stagnancy of the jedi that result in the sith victory globally, not the win of Sidious against Yoda.

That's reaching IMO. There is nothing in the novel that notes Yoda having the upper hand against him at any point. Its quite the opposite. Sidious won, it's that simple.

Azronger wrote:

The text notes how Yoda is ready to retaliate with the accumulated energy once the Emperor ceases his assault. But the Emperor doesn't stop, so Yoda can't strike back; he can do nothing but hold out until he's overwhelmed; he's trapped. You might point out that Palpatine couldn't contain the power either, but that is only a problem in close quarters. At a far enough distance, the Emperor is spared from the explosion, as the energy will build only in Yoda's hands, so it will only hit Yoda upon detonation. The junior novelization also happens to showcase this in practise:

Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

As you can see, all Palpatine has to do is to keep his distance, and Yoda can never hope to reach him before the energy becomes too much for him to contain. And once the energy inevitably blows in Yoda's hands and damages him, the Emperor, unharmed and not disoriented, would fire again, and the same result would happen over and over again until Yoda wouldn't be able to keep it up. He would be trapped in an inescapable loop in which his strength would ineluctably wane and he would die. So Sidious wins. Again. Every time.

I happen to believe Sidious won the fight via superior reserves, but still I feel like addressing this particular point. Also note that I'm only interested in this fight in the context of Disney canon, so perhaps I'm missing something.

That said, I'm not convinced the energy would overcome Yoda in the situation you're describing. Sidious' lightning would logically decrease in power over distance, this being the reason it doesn't have infinite range. The text has Yoda being blasted off the pod only when he was closing on Sidious, and it's worth noting this happened when Yoda still had his lightsaber with him, so the "reach" he was trying to come within is that of his weapon.

After he's disarmed, the visual canon has Yoda only struggling to contain the energy as Sidious steps forward:


Yoda then seems to recover and match its power, resulting in both of them being knocked back.

Rohirrim wrote:

Azronger wrote:

The text notes how Yoda is ready to retaliate with the accumulated energy once the Emperor ceases his assault. But the Emperor doesn't stop, so Yoda can't strike back; he can do nothing but hold out until he's overwhelmed; he's trapped. You might point out that Palpatine couldn't contain the power either, but that is only a problem in close quarters. At a far enough distance, the Emperor is spared from the explosion, as the energy will build only in Yoda's hands, so it will only hit Yoda upon detonation. The junior novelization also happens to showcase this in practise:

Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

As you can see, all Palpatine has to do is to keep his distance, and Yoda can never hope to reach him before the energy becomes too much for him to contain. And once the energy inevitably blows in Yoda's hands and damages him, the Emperor, unharmed and not disoriented, would fire again, and the same result would happen over and over again until Yoda wouldn't be able to keep it up. He would be trapped in an inescapable loop in which his strength would ineluctably wane and he would die. So Sidious wins. Again. Every time.

I happen to believe Sidious won the fight via superior reserves, but still I feel like addressing this particular point. Also note that I'm only interested in this fight in the context of Disney canon, so perhaps I'm missing something.

That said, I'm not convinced the energy would overcome Yoda in the situation you're describing. Sidious' lightning would logically decrease in power over distance, this being the reason it doesn't have infinite range. The text has Yoda being blasted off the pod only when he was closing on Sidious, and it's worth noting this happened when Yoda still had his lightsaber with him, so the "reach" he was trying to come within is that of his weapon.

After he's disarmed, the visual canon has Yoda only struggling to contain the energy as Sidious steps forward:


Yoda then seems to recover and match its power, resulting in both of them being knocked back.

These threads are within the context of Legends.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
These threads are within the context of Legends.

I know. However, I only referenced the quote that was provided and the movie, which I think is the highest standard of canon even within the Legends continuity. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

Rohirrim wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
These threads are within the context of Legends.

I know. However, I only referenced the quote that was provided and the movie, which I think is the highest standard of canon even within the Legends continuity. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

My response there was due to this statement: Also note that I'm only interested in this fight in the context of Disney canon, so perhaps I'm missing something.

Feel free to debate though. I'll throw my two cents in. Subjective interpretation of the fight does not override secondary sources which state Sidious's superiority.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
These threads are within the context of Legends.

I know. However, I only referenced the quote that was provided and the movie, which I think is the highest standard of canon even within the Legends continuity. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

My response there was due to this statement:  Also note that I'm only interested in this fight in the context of Disney canon, so perhaps I'm missing something.

Feel free to debate though. I'll throw my two cents in. Subjective interpretation of the fight does not override secondary sources which state Sidious's superiority.

No prob. What I meant is that there might be other sources I'm not aware of that contradict my argument. I also commented that I view Sidious as the superior, only for a different reason.

Vitiate dies

There are plenty of secondary sources that state Dooku fought Yoda to a stalemate or to a draw. Why don't the majority of us accept that Dooku is Yoda's equal despite this? Oh yeah because it's a self-evident fact that in the primary sources that the best Dooku can do is hold his own for a short period of time before resorting to disparate cheap tricks to escape. Just like it's self-evident in the film Sidious did not outright overpower Yoda in the final lightning exchange. Yoda only lost because he did not achieve his victory condition - kill Sidious, whilst Sidious's only victory condition was to survive. Not sure why generalized summaries which are often subject to simplification always take a front seat in these debates tbh.

Kilius wrote:There are plenty of secondary sources that state Dooku fought Yoda to a stalemate or to a draw. Why don't the majority of us accept that Dooku is Yoda's equal despite this? Oh yeah because it's a self-evident fact that in the primary sources that the best Dooku can do is hold his own for a short period of time before resorting to disparate cheap tricks to escape. Just like it's self-evident in the film Sidious did not outright overpower Yoda in the final lightning exchange. Yoda only lost because he did not achieve his victory condition - kill Sidious, whilst Sidious's only victory condition was to survive. Not sure why generalized summaries which are often subject to simplification always take a front seat in these debates tbh.

Cause apparently we need to do our best to make secondary summaries that aren't evidence of Lucas's intent fit with the primary material... To add to your point the vast majority of the secondary quotes don't even make mention of Sidious overpowering Yoda through greater power but rather say he was simply "too strong for Yoda to defeat" or something along those lines which is incredibly vague and not at all evidence of Sidious>Yoda.

I think that I should writte something in favor for Yoda... But I have nearly no time now. Maybe in one or two weeks.

One quick comment on the source Grey provided:

@Greysentinel365 wrote:Even if you want say Yoda had the edge, he only got it by burning himself out completely. While Sids was still good to go.

"Even the most powerful Jedi has his limits and the fight with Sidious exhausts Yoda."

Yeah no. While it's true Yoda did exhaust himself, so too did Sidious, as per the senior novel:

"The base of the Arena was a hundred meters below, littered with twisted scraps and jags of metal from the pods destroyed in the battle, and as the little green freak fell, finally, above, the victorious shadow became once again only Palpatine: a very old, very tired man, gasping for air as he leaned on the pod’s rail.": RotS Senior Novel

Hence why Yoda realizes he's outmatched and runs.

Demonstrably false. As to why Yoda ran, it's explained in the junior novel that he ran because he knew the Emperor would summon clone trooper reinforcements and this is collaborated by the senior novel where Sidious sounds the alarm as soon as the battle ends:

"Bruised and battered, but alive he crawled into a service chute. There would be no second chance to kill the Emperor; he would summon his clone troops immediately for protection." - RotS Junior Novel

"He flicked a finger, and in the Chancellor’s Podium a dozen meters away, a switch tripped and sirens sounded throughout the enormous building; another surge of the Force sent his pod streaking in a downward spiral to the holding office at the base of the Podium tower. Clone troops were already swarming into it." - RotS Senior Novel