RoTJ Luke vs Darth Vader

My boy you lack vision, but have a stout heart. The idea that you admitted that legends is equal in sabers is why I am the lord of this humble brigade.

Come my son, when your blog drops and I have viewed its contents I will show you why Vader is at least a Better swordsman than his son

@UnderAchiever599 That was when Luke got his Zonakin style amp.


This, then, was Luke's breaking point. For Leia was everyone's last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his twisted, misguided cravings on her ...
'Never!' he screamed. His lightsaber flew off Vader's belt into his own hand, igniting as it came to him. He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.


Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade
to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist. The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic
devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft
below, without a trace. Luke stared at his father's twitching, severed, mechanical hand - and then at his own black-gloved artificial part - and realized suddenly just how much he'd become like his father. Like the man he hated. Trembling, he stood above Vader, the point of his glowing blade at the Dark Lord's throat. He wanted to destroy this thing of Darkness, this thing that was once his father, this
thing that was ... him.

I’m so sad ISV has resorted to using CuckedCurry’s rhetoric

BreakofDawn wrote:@UnderAchiever599 That was when Luke got his Zonakin style amp.


This, then, was Luke's breaking point. For Leia was everyone's last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his twisted, misguided cravings on her ...
'Never!' he screamed. His lightsaber flew off Vader's belt into his own hand, igniting as it came to him. He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.


Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade
to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist. The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic
devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft
below, without a trace. Luke stared at his father's twitching, severed, mechanical hand - and then at his own black-gloved artificial part - and realized suddenly just how much he'd become like his father. Like the man he hated. Trembling, he stood above Vader, the point of his glowing blade at the Dark Lord's throat. He wanted to destroy this thing of Darkness, this thing that was once his father, this
thing that was ... him.

Yes. That's... Something I already covered? Vader got a fear-amp at the same time that Luke got his major amp, which helps explain why he still held his own as well as he did rather than being stomped in a matter of seconds. 

Also, your post is using Legends sources, which I already said I wouldn't be covering (since many people here are far, far more well-versed in Legends sources than I am). 

I was diving specifically into Canon sources. In Legends, Vader didn't "gather additional strength" from his fear, to my knowledge. It's something that I've only seen described in a canon novel.

Ah, my mistake. Sorry.

@DarthAdi : 

1. Yeah, i realised that afterwards and i edited my original post but i see that you responded too fast. The ideea is that Vader amp was not played like anything significant when compared to Luke who never felt that much fear in his life. There is a clear distinction between the description of these 2 amps. Furthermore, before the amp, Vader and Luke had a close battle, so it's clear that Luke's amp was way bigger.

2. About Luke winning, after he knocked Vader. I'm not convinced that this part: "He has won, but only by using the dark side of the Force." mean that Luke just litarally won the whole fight but rather that he won that exchange and hold the upper hand. I say this because if you watch the movie, Vader still had his lightsaber, he still held his guard and had enough time to get up. To say that Luke won the whole fight there doesn't match well with wath we see in the movie ( which is the primary material) and is clear that the movie doesn't give the impression that the fight is over. There are numerous examples in star wars of characters being knocked (and in some cases losing their lightsabers in the process) and still continuing to fight fine afterwards. Kicks in star wars happens all the time and are often not indicative of superiority. And yes, i know that this is mostly speculation. Again, i'm not arguing that rage Luke was not superior, he clearly was, but i think you exagerate it a little.

1. You and I are in agreement about the amps. I already said that Luke’s amp was much more significant than Vader’s.

2. I wasn’t trying to exaggerate. I simply used the sources that I had readily available, with the book outright stating that Luke had won, but only by drawing on the dark side. I took that to mean that, had Luke chosen to leap and attack Vader, that would have been the end of the duel. Instead, Sidious began gloating a bit too early, and snapped Luke out of his rage. The fight was pretty much over in the movie when Luke kicked Vader down the stairs, with Luke deactivating his lightsaber and outright stating that he wouldn’t fight his own father. The only reason it continued is because Vader chose to continue attacking Luke after Luke’s surrender.

That said, once you look at outside sources, such as Rohirrim pointing to the duel between Anakin and Barriss, I must concede that Vader hadn’t been fully defeated when Luke kicked him down the flight of stairs. Vader possibly could have continued the duel had Luke leapt after him. The world will never know for certain one way or the other. 

However, this concession does not negate the fact that Luke was faster than Vader in canon, stronger than Vader in canon, and made better use of the environment (the stairs, the catwalk). Whether it’s anger-filled Luke driving Vader back to the stairs and kicking him through the air in a matter of seconds, or light side Luke stonewalling Vader’s attacks, overpowering Vader in a bind, and outmaneuvering Vader before leaping up to the catwalks, or the many statements within the movie from Yoda, Ben, and Sidious, every indication points to canon Luke being above canon Vader by RotJ.

@Rohirrim : 

It's simply logical that conflicted emotions would hinder Vader's power, given he draws power from those emotions. 

The fact that he momentarily immersed himself in the dark side after the conversation doesn't preclude the conflict from reemerging afterwards. The quote I provided makes it clear that Luke felt the good in Vader during the duel, so this is definitely what happened. 

If Luke was able to sense the light within Vader, it means that, even though Vader had a surface of darkness, there were cracks in that surface. Naturally, he wouldn't be able to draw strength from self-hatred as easily as he would against someone he didn't feel compassion for, because they are opposing forces. 

1. I’ve already posted a line from a novel which shows how Vader drawing upon the dark side can effectively ignore the conflict within him. And you have yet to prove that the conflict actually hindered him. You claiming it’s “simply logical” is just you trying to say your headcanon is definitive fact. I’ve already provided a quote that tells us when Vader calls upon the dark side, the “dark truths” become “true again.” In other words, even if Vader is conflicted, when he’s drawing on the dark side (as he explicitly was during his duel with Luke), he can effectively tune out this internal conflict.

2. Self-hatred and compassion for others aren’t opposing forces. It’s entirely possible to feel both at the same time. Hell, I can personally attest to that, as someone struggling with depression. Vader may have love for his son, but that doesn’t get in the way of Vader hating himself for having killed Padme, or for being responsible for the destruction of the entire Jedi Order. And considering Vader drew his strength by hating the man he once was, any strong reminder of that past provides more fuel for his hatred. He may love Luke, but Luke is a constant reminder of everything he lost, all the mistakes he made. In other words, Luke is the perfect source of hatred for Vader, to the point that Vader felt enough hate to outright kill Luke when Luke had willingly surrendered to him on Endor.

Unless you can show me a canon source that tells us Vader was weakened during his duel with Luke, or that the good which Vader had buried within him somehow dampened the hatred he was capable of feeling, I’ll continue standing by my stance that Vader was not hindered during the duel in RotJ.

Azronger wrote:@xmysticgohanx Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

narutoforums


also im not sure how to use this forums quot system but

@underachiever599 do you have the "Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know" revised and expanded edition? The first edition had a top 5 red lightsaber wielders list. Does the revised one have an updated list or a jedi list?


@darthant66 disney canon

Underachiever599 wrote:(I've purchased every Canon novel, comic, and source book/encyclopedia I've been able to since the reboot)

DarthAnt66 wrote:

xmysticgohanx wrote:Are there any canon quotes that talk about this fight? I saw multiple posts from people saying they are equals. From the movie, it seems Luke is superior

Welcome to the forum! Are you asking about quotes for Disney continuity (the universe that has Rey, Kylo Ren, etc.) or for the Legends continuity (the universe that has Darth Malgus, Mara Jade, etc.)? Some characters are stronger in one continuity than the other because they feature some different events and quotes.

@xmysticgohanx

I believe I have a copy of it hiding somewhere. Many of my books are currently packed away due to a recent move, but I'll see if I can dig it out in the next few days.

@Underachiever599:

1. I’ve already posted a line from a novel which shows how Vader drawing upon the dark side can effectively ignore the conflict within him. And you have yet to prove that the conflict actually hindered him. You claiming it’s “simply logical” is just you trying to say your headcanon is definitive fact. I’ve already provided a quote that tells us when Vader calls upon the dark side, the “dark truths” become “true again.” In other words, even if Vader is conflicted, when he’s drawing on the dark side (as he explicitly was during his duel with Luke), he can effectively tune out this internal conflict.

2. Self-hatred and compassion for others aren’t opposing forces. It’s entirely possible to feel both at the same time. Hell, I can personally attest to that, as someone struggling with depression. Vader may have love for his son, but that doesn’t get in the way of Vader hating himself for having killed Padme, or for being responsible for the destruction of the entire Jedi Order. And considering Vader drew his strength by hating the man he once was, any strong reminder of that past provides more fuel for his hatred. He may love Luke, but Luke is a constant reminder of everything he lost, all the mistakes he made. In other words, Luke is the perfect source of hatred for Vader, to the point that Vader felt enough hate to outright kill Luke when Luke had willingly surrendered to him on Endor.

Unless you can show me a canon source that tells us Vader was weakened during his duel with Luke, or that the good which Vader had buried within him somehow dampened the hatred he was capable of feeling, I’ll continue standing by my stance that Vader was not hindered during the duel in RotJ.

That's okay, I can't force you to agree with me. Plus, it's part of what makes discussions interesting. 

I still stand by my previous posts, though. After the conversation with Luke, Vader did manage to immerse himself in the dark side and tune out the conflict, but I don't think just because it worked then, it means it will always work. The fact that Luke was able to sense the conflict during the duel is IMO enough indication that the conflict had reawakened. 

A part of Vader wanted to destroy Luke and the other wanted to save him. These are opposing emotions, otherwise there would truly be no conflict. And conflicted hatred of Luke (as a reminder of Vader's past) is still less powerful than pure unadulterated hatred. It's just the way human psychology works. When Vader's compassion for his son grows stronger than self-hatred, he can't draw from this hatred anymore and acts as a lightsider. Likewise, every time Luke draws strength from the dark side it's because his negative emotions overwhelm his positive emotions, not because he is choosing to draw from the dark side in a rational way. It's involuntary.

The stronger the negative emotions are relative to the positive ones, the more power can be drawn from the dark side. Conversely, the good in Vader hinders his ability to use the dark side to its fullest. The same very thing happens to Kylo Ren, who per various sources is literally weakened after killing his father, due to his conflicting emotions.

xmysticgohanx wrote:

Azronger wrote:@xmysticgohanx Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

narutoforums

@xmysticgohanx: Nice! Is ChaosTheory123 still there?

DarthAnt66 wrote:

xmysticgohanx wrote:

Azronger wrote:@xmysticgohanx Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

narutoforums

@xmysticgohanx: Nice! Is ChaosTheory123 still there?

Yeah he hasn’t been active lately though iirc