RoTJ Luke vs Darth Vader

Are there any canon quotes that talk about this fight? I saw multiple posts from people saying they are equals. From the movie, it seems Luke is superior

Oh boy

oh boy

Luke is equal when at base, stronger when enraged, that's pretty clear when watching the film.

Canon: Luke = Vader in sabers and < him when enraged/in the zone.

equals in sabers vader is superior in the force

@xmysticgohanx Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

xmysticgohanx wrote:Are there any canon quotes that talk about this fight? I saw multiple posts from people saying they are equals. From the movie, it seems Luke is superior

Welcome to the forum! Are you asking about quotes for Disney continuity (the universe that has Rey, Kylo Ren, etc.) or for the Legends continuity (the universe that has Darth Malgus, Mara Jade, etc.)? Some characters are stronger in one continuity than the other because they feature some different events and quotes.

Here's some for the Legends. 

Legends:

There's substantial evidence that Luke and Vader were equals in RotJ, and if either had an advantage, it was Luke. These sources range from the official novelization to the official comic adaptation, The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader to Star Wars Insider. Virtually every primary and secondary source drives home the point that Luke and Vader are either equals or Luke is marginally superior. Many people try to argue that Vader was hindered, but I've seen virtually no actual sources that state this. It appears to be just head canon that people use to justify Luke's ~4 years of training allowing him to surpass Vader, who has been active for decades. I'm not going to dive too deep into the sources, as there's far more people on this forum who are more familiar with Legends, and can provide abundant sources and quotes to support Luke's parity with Vader. 

Canon:

There are far, far few sources in Canon than there are in Legends, but the few I've come across are all very consistent. I'm much more familiar with Canon sources than Legends sources (I've purchased every Canon novel, comic, and source book/encyclopedia I've been able to since the reboot), so I can say with some confidence that Luke as a light side user is equal to Vader, and when giving in to aggression, Luke stomps Vader in RotJ. The best look in Canon at their duel comes from Beware the Power of the Dark Side! the Canon Return of the Jedi junior novelization.

And now the two must fight again. 
Blades whirl and clash and spark. Luke crouches low, ready to either dodge or lunge. Vader stands tall and simply pushes forward, driving Luke backward with powerful swings.
But now Luke spins and changes the flow of the attack, surprising Vader who is just a little too slow to turn. Luke rushes in to bring down a mighty two-handed blow. Vader blocks it, but finds himself thrown off balance by the intensity of it. He steps back, not realizing that Luke had driven him to the edge of the stairs.

At the start of the duel, dark side Luke solidly stomps Vader after initially being driven backward, with Vader explicitly being stated as "just a little to slow," and Luke's "mighty two-handed blow" is enough for Vader to be "thrown off balance by the intensity of it." This is extremely impressive, since Vader's kept up with the likes of Eeth Koth, Cere Junda, Commander Karbin, and Ahsoka Tano, all extremely fast duelists. Luke overpowering Vader in physical strength is also extremely impressive, considering how heavily Canon has focused on Vader's raw physical ability, with him sending Cere and Ezra flying with simple backhand strikes. It's also worth pointing out that Luke's kick in the movie didn't send Vader tumbling down the stairs. Vader is sent flying through the air over the stairs, and his body doesn't hit touch the ground until he lands at the base of the staircase. It wasn't a matter of knocking Vader off balance. Luke ragdolled Vader through the air with a physical strike in the same manner we've seen Vader do to others. 

Luke looks down at his father, clambering to his feet at the foot of the stairs. He had told Obi-Wan he couldn’t kill his father . . . and yet he almost had.
He turns off his lightsaber and at the same time attempts to turn off the hate and anger.
Vader climbs the stairs, lightsaber still burning and hate still flowing.

This shows that Vader had been drawing on his hate as well at the start of the duel, thanks to the words, "and hate still flowing." Earlier in the novel, it's shown that Canon Vader draws his strength in the dark side from hatred of his past, not just hatred of others. Vader's hatred should be at its peak around Luke, due to Luke being the largest possible reminder of his past.

He certainly feels enough hate to do it. Of course, we know, reader, that Vader’s hate is not really hatred of Luke, but of his own past.

It's also worth pointing out, the novel explicitly tells us Luke "attempts to turn off the hate and anger" as Vader starts walking back up the stairs. In the movie, this takes place at the same time when Luke is refusing to fight back against Vader. Despite this, Luke is depicted stalemating Vader in blade locks, and even overpowers Vader immediately before jumping up to the catwalk. This implies Luke, while drawing on the light side, is still just as strong as, if not stronger than, Vader. 

This is further backed up by many, many statements within the movie itself. Yoda and Ben both insist that Luke doesn't need more training, and that he must go confront Vader in RotJ, a direct contradiction to their stance in ESB. Neither Yoda nor Ben would be willing to set Luke up to confront Vader unless they were reasonably certain Luke would win, without drawing on the dark side (since, you know, they're Jedi). It's also worth noting that neither Yoda nor Ben expected Luke to turn Vader back to the light. Yoda believed that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." He also told Luke to go confront Vader before learning that Luke knew the truth about his parentage. Ben also pretty much explicitly tells Luke that if Luke can't kill Vader, the Emperor wins. 

What's more, the Emperor himself has a statement that implies Luke is too powerful for Vader. "He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force." The Emperor basically says that Vader can't turn Luke to the dark side on his own, and he explicitly cites Luke's strength as the reason for this. That makes three sources in the movie who all imply Luke has surpassed Vader. Two of them are arguably the strongest users of the light and dark sides of the Force that the Galaxy had ever seen up until that point, and the other was literally one with the Force itself. If anyone in the Galaxy could accurately tell us who was more powerful, RotJ Luke or RotJ Vader, it would be these three. 

Lastly, as for Luke's rage at the end of the duel, it's pretty self-explanatory. Luke solidly curb-stomps Vader. 

“Never!” screams Luke, launching himself out of the gloom, lightsaber blazing, fighting as he has never fought before.
He swings wildly, madly, using the dark side to move faster and strike harder. He has felt anger and hate before, but never this much fear . . . fear for his sister, Leia.
It is too much for Vader. He blocks attack after attack but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear . . . but it is not enough. Luke lands a blow on his arm, then one on his side.
The Sith Lord is forced backward until he reaches the bridge over the reactor shaft. Here he tries to strike back, but Luke knocks him down. He sprawls onto the bridge, lifting his lightsaber in a vain attempt to block whatever comes next. But Luke slashes with his saber, slicing Vader’s arm off. The metal limb tumbles down into the shaft, taking the lightsaber with it.

Luke's fear for Leia amps Luke well beyond any boost he's ever gotten. Vader gathered strength from his constant hatred, and additional strength from his own fear of Luke, but Luke solidly outclasses Vader by this point. So fear & hate amped Luke>fear & hate amped Vader. Really no surprise to anyone who has seen the movie. However, this does explicitly disprove several people's head canon that Vader was hindered during this duel. Vader is explicitly drawing on both hatred and fear for additional strength, so we're arguably seeing Vader operating at his peak here, but he's just so ridiculously outclassed that he seems weak in comparison to amped Luke.

TL;DR: 

So in Canon, the junior novel makes it clear that Vader, while fueled by his hatred, is "too slow" to defeat a hatred-fueled Luke, and Luke is strong enough to knock Vader off balance with a single strike. What's more, the junior novel when paired with the movie shows us that light side Luke is still likely well above Vader, and the only reason it's not more readily apparent in the movie is because Luke is actively refusing to fight back at all, in order to "turn off the hate and anger." Lastly, Vader at the end of the duel is drawing on both hatred and fear for additional strength, but it is not enough for him to stand against amped Luke.

@Underachiever599: Just a couple nitpicks:

At the start of the duel, dark side Luke solidly stomps Vader after initially being driven backward, with Vader explicitly being stated as "just a little to slow," and Luke's "mighty two-handed blow" is enough for Vader to be "thrown off balance by the intensity of it." 

Getting the upper hand and kicking Vader =/= stomping.

This shows that Vader had been drawing on his hate as well at the start of the duel, thanks to the words, "and hate still flowing." Earlier in the novel, it's shown that Canon Vader draws his strength in the dark side from hatred of his past, not just hatred of others. Vader's hatred should be at its peak around Luke, due to Luke being the largest possible reminder of his past.

Vader's hatred, which he admittedly was drawing on, didn't burn as it once had. He was conflicted and not fully immersed in the dark side, as Luke felt the good in him during the duel:

- StarWars.com

@Underachiever599 Good post.

Legends: Force is hard to judge but they're 100% equal in sabers.

Canon: Equals in sabers, not so sure about the Force. For example, Battlefront 2 has Luke straining to hold up some falling boulders, whereas a pre-ESB Vader could easily stop an AT-TE from stepping on him and began tearing it apart.

Rohirrim wrote:@Underachiever599: Just a couple nitpicks:

At the start of the duel, dark side Luke solidly stomps Vader after initially being driven backward, with Vader explicitly being stated as "just a little to slow," and Luke's "mighty two-handed blow" is enough for Vader to be "thrown off balance by the intensity of it." 

Getting the upper hand and kicking Vader =/= stomping.

This shows that Vader had been drawing on his hate as well at the start of the duel, thanks to the words, "and hate still flowing." Earlier in the novel, it's shown that Canon Vader draws his strength in the dark side from hatred of his past, not just hatred of others. Vader's hatred should be at its peak around Luke, due to Luke being the largest possible reminder of his past.

Vader's hatred, which he admittedly was drawing on, didn't burn as it once had. He was conflicted and not fully immersed in the dark side, as Luke felt the good in him during the duel:

- StarWars.com

1. Luke's victory over Vader took barely two paragraphs in the novel, and around 8 seconds in the movie. Even if you factor in all the deleted dueling content that was left on the cutting room floor, Luke's victory over Vader takes about 17 seconds. This means Luke beat Vader faster than enraged Anakin beat Dooku. Faster than Sidious beat Maul. Faster than Vader beat Ahsoka. About as fast as Dooku beating Obi-Wan in AotC, if you cut out Dooku's dialogue. I think that's enough to consider this a stomp. 


And yes, Luke had actually won at the point he kicked Vader down the stairs. He had been preparing to leap down and finish Vader off before Vader could stand, when Sidious began gloating about Luke's use of the dark side.

But now Luke spins and changes the flow of the attack, surprising Vader who is just a little too slow to turn. Luke rushes in to bring down a mighty two-handed blow. Vader blocks it, but finds himself thrown off balance by the intensity of it. He steps back, not realizing that Luke had driven him to the edge of the stairs.
He falls and Luke is preparing to leap down after him when he hears the Emperor behind him.
“Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.”
Again, the Emperor is telling the truth and Luke knows it. He has won, but only by using the dark side of the Force. The hate is flowing through him and he is winning this battle against his father because of it.

2. It's common knowledge that Vader was conflicted. What you have yet to prove, however, is that this in any way weakened Vader. Nowhere in any canon source that I've seen has it been stated that Vader had been hindered by his conflicted emotions. And we know for a fact that Vader's hatred for his own past was enough for Vader to want to kill Luke. 

[qoute] Vader could end all this right now. He could strike Luke down and be done—if not for his master’s orders. He certainly feels enough hate to do it. Of course, we know, reader, that Vader’s hate is not really hatred of Luke, but of his own past. [/quote]

If it weren't for Palpatine's orders to bring Luke before him on the Death Star, Vader may have been tempted to kill Luke when the two met on Endor. This makes it abundantly clear to what extent Vader's self-hatred goes. He may have been conflicted about his feelings for Luke, but Luke was still a powerful enough reminder of his past that Vader was tempted to outright kill him. 

During the conversation when Luke meets Vader on Endor, we see Luke trying to return Vader to the light: 

  “I see you have constructed a new lightsaber. Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has foreseen.”
But Luke isn’t going to be distracted.
“Come with me,” he says.
Now Vader truly understands why he has feared his son so much. Not because of his mastery of the Force or skill with a lightsaber. But because Luke can make him question the dark truths that have long ruled him.
Defensively, he recites these truths now . . . even as he begins to wonder if they really are true. 
“Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don’t know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.”

But how does that encounter end?

“Search your feelings, Father. You can’t do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.”
Luke’s attack has at last reached into the great, dark, troubled mind of Anakin Skywalker. And to Vader it is far more painful than the lightsaber slash Luke scored in Cloud City.
But even this is not enough, Luke. Ah, they all tried to warn you; the dark side is strong. Vader uses it to close off the questions, the memories, the hopes. The dark truths are true again.
“It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.”
Vader turns abruptly and signals two of his two stormtroopers to come take the prisoner. 
The battle is over and Luke has lost.

By drawing on the dark side, Vader can ignore "the questions, the memories, the hopes," and make "the dark truths" "true again." And we know he was explicitly drawing on his hatred during his duel with Luke. So effectively, he was blocking out his own internal conflict during the duel and solely drawing on hatred while battling Luke. 

So, again, there's nothing to indicate Vader was weakened during the duel. Luke might sense conflict deep within Vader, but on the surface, Vader was fueled by the same hate that has always fueled him. Hatred for his past, hatred for anything that reminded him of the man he'd once been, and what he'd had to lose to get where he was. And Luke was the most powerful reminder of that past possible. Vader's hatred around Luke should be comparable to Vader's hatred around Ahsoka.

Dave Filoni wrote:So he wants to destroy Ahsoka because she represents his past. She represents knowledge of who he was and he wants to wipe that out. 

BreakofDawn wrote:Legends: Force is hard to judge but they're 100% equal in sabers.

Canon: Equals in sabers, not so sure about the Force. For example, Battlefront 2 has Luke straining to hold up some falling boulders, whereas a pre-ESB Vader could easily stop an AT-TE from stepping on him and began tearing it apart.

I'm hesitant to say what RotJ Luke's peak Force abilities are in Canon. We're getting a new comic series set right after Empire Strikes Back, and it's probably going to show us Luke finding Jocasta Nu's Jedi academy (as depicted in the 2017 Vader comic). We're probably going to be getting a ton of feats for Pre-RotJ Luke in the next couple of years. Until then, we have very few feats. We've seen him dispatch KX Security Droids with TK, catch tons of stone, ragdoll several Stormtroopers at once, and rattle a Star Destroyer with an instinctive Force push, but nothing very high-end until his showings in TLJ. Hopefully the 2020 Star Wars comic will remedy this.

@Underachiever599:

Luke's victory over Vader took barely two paragraphs in the novel, and around 8 seconds in the movie. Even if you factor in all the deleted dueling content that was left on the cutting room floor, Luke's victory over Vader takes about 17 seconds. This means Luke beat Vader faster than enraged Anakin beat Dooku. Faster than Sidious beat Maul. Faster than Vader beat Ahsoka. About as fast as Dooku beating Obi-Wan in AotC, if you cut out Dooku's dialogue. I think that's enough to consider this a stomp.


And yes, Luke had actually won at the point he kicked Vader down the stairs. He had been preparing to leap down and finish Vader off before Vader could stand, when Sidious began gloating about Luke's use of the dark side.

Even if you consider that Luke won at this point one thing that should be taken into acount is that the environment (the stairs) made the fight way shorter than it would have been otherwise. A much more rage amped Luke ( when Vader talked about turning Leia) needed much longer to defeat Vader.

DarthAdi wrote:

Luke's victory over Vader took barely two paragraphs in the novel, and around 8 seconds in the movie. Even if you factor in all the deleted dueling content that was left on the cutting room floor, Luke's victory over Vader takes about 17 seconds. This means Luke beat Vader faster than enraged Anakin beat Dooku. Faster than Sidious beat Maul. Faster than Vader beat Ahsoka. About as fast as Dooku beating Obi-Wan in AotC, if you cut out Dooku's dialogue. I think that's enough to consider this a stomp.


And yes, Luke had actually won at the point he kicked Vader down the stairs. He had been preparing to leap down and finish Vader off before Vader could stand, when Sidious began gloating about Luke's use of the dark side.

Even if you consider that Luke won at this point one thing that should be taken into acount is that the environment (the stairs) made the fight way shorter than it would have been otherwise. A much more rage amped Luke ( when Vader talked about turning Leia) needed much longer to defeat Vader.

Vader was also amped by fear of Luke in that final duel, as addressed in my first post. So both combatants were stronger during the final stage of the duel, not just Luke.

Also, just because Luke made better use of the environment doesn't mean Luke wasn't solidly above Vader at the start of the duel. It just shows that Luke had so much control over the duel that he was not only both stronger and faster than Vader, but he could also direct the duel to a spot which would be beneficial for him. It's not like Vader isn't an environmentally aware duelist. He's made use of the environment in plenty of his duels. Luke driving Vader back to the stairs, a position that put Vader at a serious disadvantage, is just more evidence toward Luke's superiority.

Underachiever599 wrote:

DarthAdi wrote:

Luke's victory over Vader took barely two paragraphs in the novel, and around 8 seconds in the movie. Even if you factor in all the deleted dueling content that was left on the cutting room floor, Luke's victory over Vader takes about 17 seconds. This means Luke beat Vader faster than enraged Anakin beat Dooku. Faster than Sidious beat Maul. Faster than Vader beat Ahsoka. About as fast as Dooku beating Obi-Wan in AotC, if you cut out Dooku's dialogue. I think that's enough to consider this a stomp.


And yes, Luke had actually won at the point he kicked Vader down the stairs. He had been preparing to leap down and finish Vader off before Vader could stand, when Sidious began gloating about Luke's use of the dark side.

Even if you consider that Luke won at this point one thing that should be taken into acount is that the environment (the stairs) made the fight way shorter than it would have been otherwise. A much more rage amped Luke ( when Vader talked about turning Leia) needed much longer to defeat Vader.

Vader was also amped by fear of Luke in that final duel, as addressed in my first post. So both combatants were stronger during the final stage of the duel, not just Luke.

Also, just because Luke made better use of the environment doesn't mean Luke wasn't solidly above Vader at the start of the duel. It just shows that Luke had so much control over the duel that he was not only both stronger and faster than Vader, but he could also direct the duel to a spot which would be beneficial for him. It's not like Vader isn't an environmentally aware duelist. He's made use of the environment in plenty of his duels. Luke driving Vader back to the stairs, a position that put Vader at a serious disadvantage, is just more evidence toward Luke's superiority.

1. Vader is a sith, of course he used fear, but he allways uses it. Sith allways use fear/anger/hatred. He was not amped by any significant margin, he just acted like any sith. If he hadn't used fear/hatred he wouldn't have been a sith. Is evident from the movie that whatever amp Vader got was insignificant compared with Luke's rage amp.
2. I didn't contested that rage amped Luke was superior. I just said that without the environment the fight would have been longer. We allready saw how a much more amped Luke needed more time to defeat Vader.

(I'm on my phone now, so please forgive me if my responses are slower/less sourced/poorly edited and formatted.)

Underachiever599 wrote:

@\"DarthAdi" wrote:[size=37]1. Vader is a sith, of course he used fear, but he allways uses it. Sith allways use fear/anger/hatred. He was not amped, he just acted like any sith. If he hadn't used fear/hatred he wouldn't have been a sith. Is evident from the movies that Vader was anything but amped. At most you can say that he was not hindered.[/size]
[size=37]2. I didn't contested that rage amped Luke was superior. I just said that without the environment the fight would have been longer. We allready saw how a much more amped Luke needed more time to defeat Vader.[/size]

1. The text explicitly tells us that Vader drew "additional strength" from his fear. In other words, strength beyond his normal level. I'm not saying Vader had a major boost comparable to Luke's, but he was boosted. The only reason it doesn't appear that way is because of how ridiculously outclassed he was by Luke.

2. It's possible that the fight would have been longer had the staircase not been there. So if you really want to argue semantics, I suppose you could say Luke's early victory wasn't necessarily a "stomp," though I'm still of the opinion that it was. With or without the staircase, Vader was still "just a little bit too slow" to keep up with Luke, and Luke's two handed strikes were still strong enough to knock Vader off balance, and Luke still could have landed the kick that sent Vader flying through the air. The only thing Luke loses out on without the staircase being there is the advantage of the high ground.

(I'm on my phone now, so please forgive me if my responses are slower/less sourced/poorly edited and formatted.)

1. Yeah, i realised that afterwards and i edited my original post but i see that you responded too fast. The ideea is that Vader amp was not played like anything significant when compared to Luke who never felt that much fear in his life. There is a clear distinction between the description of these 2 amps. Furthermore, before the amp, Vader and Luke had a close battle, so it's clear that Luke's amp was way bigger.
2. About Luke winning, after he knocked Vader. I'm not convinced that this part: "He has won, but only by using the dark side of the Force." mean that Luke just litarally won the whole fight but rather that he won that exchange and hold the upper hand. I say this because if you watch the movie, Vader still had his lightsaber, he still held his guard and had enough time to get up. To say that Luke won the whole fight there doesn't match well with wath we see in the movie ( which is the primary material) and is clear that the movie doesn't give the impression that the fight is over. There are numerous examples in star wars of characters being knocked (and in some cases losing their lightsabers in the process) and still continuing to fight fine afterwards. Kicks in star wars happens all the time and are often not indicative of superiority. And yes, i know that this is mostly speculation. Again, i'm not arguing that rage Luke was not superior, he clearly was, but i think you exagerate it a little.

people really dont know how much more amped palpatine couldve made luke, and how much vader may have been, in legends. thank god BOD is making that blog.

@Underachiever599: Luke won that initial exchange, but it doesn't mean the fight would have been over had he not snapped out of his rage. Otherwise, this would also count as a full-fledged victory, rather than a momentary advantage:

It's common knowledge that Vader was conflicted. What you have yet to prove, however, is that this in any way weakened Vader. Nowhere in any canon source that I've seen has it been stated that Vader had been hindered by his conflicted emotions. And we know for a fact that Vader's hatred for his own past was enough for Vader to want to kill Luke. 

It's simply logical that conflicted emotions would hinder Vader's power, given he draws power from those emotions.

By drawing on the dark side, Vader can ignore "the questions, the memories, the hopes," and make "the dark truths" "true again." And we know he was explicitly drawing on his hatred during his duel with Luke. So effectively, he was blocking out his own internal conflict during the duel and solely drawing on hatred while battling Luke. 

The fact that he momentarily immersed himself in the dark side after the conversation doesn't preclude the conflict from reemerging afterwards. The quote I provided makes it clear that Luke felt the good in Vader during the duel, so this is definitely what happened. 

If Luke was able to sense the light within Vader, it means that, even though Vader had a surface of darkness, there were cracks in that surface. Naturally, he wouldn't be able to draw strength from self-hatred as easily as he would against someone he didn't feel compassion for, because they are opposing forces.

@UnderAchiever599 Where does it say he gained "additional strength"?

BreakofDawn wrote:@UnderAchiever599 Where does it say he gained "additional strength"?

“Never!” screams Luke, launching himself out of the gloom, lightsaber blazing, fighting as he has never fought before.
He swings wildly, madly, using the dark side to move faster and strike harder. He has felt anger and hate before, but never this much fear . . . fear for his sister, Leia.
It is too much for Vader. He blocks attack after attack but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear . . . but it is not enough. Luke lands a blow on his arm, then one on his side.

Due to New Years, I'll have to get back to this thread next decade, when I have more time available to me.