Yoda vs DE Luke

BreakofDawn wrote:Plus, consider the context of the quote. Luke is the last remaining Jedi. It was Luke who caused Vader to turn back to the light side and overthrow Sidious. It was Luke who was primarily behind the Death Star's destruction (both of them). It was Luke who now stands in opposition to him, in a scenario that Sidious could not and did not predict. 

Luke is Sidious' "greatest" adversary because he's been behind the ruination of more of his plans than any being in history (which includes Yoda, who didn't foil any of Sheev's plans), not because he's the most powerful or skilled. Even Sheev doesn't consider Luke to be Yoda level based on his words throughout DE.

And also keep in mind Luke was able to hold his own against Sheev with oppressive Dark Side that made Sheev feel invincible mid-point through the series:







So with these factors in place - that Sheev was wildly more powerful, and Luke was being hindered - and with Luke capable of putting up a "ferocious" battle; do we think the quote would be wrong when it points to Luke being his greatest adversary even combat wise? Keep in mind this is ignoring the end-fight, but with all factors included I don't find it odd to think that Yoda couldn't replicate this, or that at the very least that we could ignore it entirely and just pretend Luke is nowhere close in power.

Luke was too powerful for DE Sidious. He takes this.

Sidious is still more powerful than Luke in DE.

@Quorian Debatist Your first scan says Luke "could not stand" against Sidious' power. The second scan says "After a brief lightsaber battle, the Emperor subdued Luke and broke his will." Nothing about that indicates that it was close or even. You then have the third, which described Sidious' strength as "limitless" in comparison to Luke, then the fourth, which has Luke succumbing to Sidious' strength. So far, four of your scans support the idea that Sidious is pretty firmly > DE Luke, with only one hyperbolic synopsis supporting the idea that the two fought evenly. 

So with these factors in place - that Sheev was wildly more powerful, and Luke was being hindered - 

How was Luke hindered?

but with all factors included I don't find it odd to think that Yoda couldn't replicate this,

Why not? Yoda was capable of disarming Sheev in his prime, skillwise (he barely had an opportunity to use a lightsaber against a worthwhile opponent after ROTS).

or that at the very least that we could ignore it entirely and just pretend Luke is nowhere close in power.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

Yeah tbf the audio drama portrays the duel on Byss as in credibly one-sided. The Emperor is dancing rings around Luke unarmed.

BreakofDawn wrote:@Quorian Debatist Your first scan says Luke "could not stand" against Sidious' power. The second scan says "After a brief lightsaber battle, the Emperor subdued Luke and broke his will." Nothing about that indicates that it was close or even. You then have the third, which described Sidious' strength as "limitless" in comparison to Luke, then the fourth, which has Luke succumbing to Sidious' strength. So far, four of your scans support the idea that Sidious is pretty firmly > DE Luke, with only one hyperbolic synopsis supporting the idea that the two fought evenly. 

Yes, Luke lost ultimately. I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that Luke did incredibly well against a being who's above Valkorion off of Byss. I'm saying that Luke did incredibly well against a guy who felt invincible and limitless on Byss. I'm saying that at the absolute height of Sheev's power - up to then - that Luke did well. Luke was able to parry his blows, blade lock with him, and follow along with his movements to seemingly a decent degree. That doesn't mean that Luke was on the verge of defeating Sheev or ever had a chance of winning mind you, it just means that Luke prior to the end of DE fought a vastly more powerful Sheev than Yoda did and managed to make it a fight. That's it. Something I feel in conjuncture with the end fight is simply beyond Yoda's level, and you seemingly do too though you'd never admit it because you've never been wrong.

Yes, the "hyperbolic" statement - from the source material mind you - that it was a ferocious battle should be written off because "ferocious" is a very hyperbolic statement but "limitless" isn't. Also, how is that quote saying they fought evenly when it says Sheev won? The attempts you make to discredit quotes are very suspect (insight). The quote doesn't count because you misinterpret it now? That's not a viable excuse.

But going back to that "hyperbolic" statement, it directly applies that "greatest adversary" line after speaking of their fight. So should we as readers assume it's talking to the long storied history of Sheev vs Luke, or should we assume that engaging in a ferocious lightsaber battle might be what the quote is pointing towards?. Then we realize that Luke - with help - actually beat Sheev later on, and had a decent battle with him earlier. How would Luke not be his greatest adversary both in and out of combat? You don't need the quote to tell you that so I'm not sure why you're questioning the quote. I mean you can make a play to say the quote happened before we knew Sheev fought Yoda, but then you realize the context would still make Luke his greatest adversary anyway.

I mean you got to a point where you applied the quote to Luke existing and Anakin chucking Sheev to his "death" but then you ignore Luke outdueling Sheev and then resulting in another "death" and then being involved in a permanent death in some way as a result of that. Luke was a thorn in his side both in and out of battle. Pinning it to only outside of battle is dishonest of you, though what can I expect from the guy who tries to slip in the "implication" that DE Luke was still below Vader every chance he gets? I mean you even did it here subtly...

"Even Sheev doesn't consider Luke to be Yoda level based on his words throughout DE."

Wonder what you could be referring to?

BreakofDawn wrote:

So with these factors in place - that Sheev was wildly more powerful, and Luke was being hindered - 

How was Luke hindered?

Luke was literally resisting the Dark Side of the planet that fight. Two of those pics stated that. Like, the way you selectively read or choose not to read anything that goes against you is very questionable.

Luke was resisting the allure of the Dark Side that fight. IE, it was impacting his ability to an extent. He was on the precipice of falling to the Dark Side and was actively resisting it at the time until Sheev beat him down. It's one of the few times that a Dark Side nexus was actually stated to be a hindrance in a fight even though we pretend it's always factored in.

Now that doesn't mean that Luke would do better by leaps and bounds without the negative impact, but it does mean it was a factor. A factor that had it been applied to Vader, you would be rabid in applying it to every thread he appears in.

BreakofDawn wrote:

but with all factors included I don't find it odd to think that Yoda couldn't replicate this,

Why not? Yoda was capable of disarming Sheev in his prime, skillwise (he barely had an opportunity to use a lightsaber against a worthwhile opponent after ROTS).

Because you place Sidious far beyond Yoda at this point in time if your posts are to be believed:

The lord of hunger wrote:i also have a question where did you guys put valkorion compared to any incarnation of palps?

BreakofDawn wrote:@The Lord of Hunger Below DE Sidious, above any other iteration of Sheev.

BreakofDawn wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Valkorion wasn't a Sith, and his feats crap on ROTS Sheev's.

how so?

Force storms capable of killing hundreds of people and destroying their shielded vehicles while heavily wounded and without even focusing on them, one-shotting unchained Vaylin, EoKOTET Outlander (who > his chapter 8 self) and Arcann, nearly knocking KOTET Satele unconscious just because of the ripples his death caused in the Force, ragdolling the pre-training Outlander, ragdolling EoKOTET Outlander, being >> his SWTOR self, knowledge of Sith alchemy and sorcery potent enough to be maintained after his death and put Kira, Scourge and Satele into comas as well as manifesting some kind of entity from their strength (implied to be another Valkorion), etc.

BreakofDawn wrote:That's not to discount Palpatine's own feats and power, but someone like Valkorion simply is a fair bit more powerful than him at this point.

If the scaling is to be believed here, we have:
DE Sheev > Valkorion > ROTJ Sheev > ROTS Sheev/Yoda >> DE Luke

So we have threads where you seem to think it's almost spite for someone weaker than DE Sheev against Yoda... in the past two days. So that's why I find it doubtful you actually think Yoda can stand up to DE Sheev.

But to answer your current quandary, even if Sheev maintained the same skillset, it would be enhanced by more power in a stronger body. KF Vader (who you champion) for instance didn't learn new lightsaber styles and new techniques within 20 minutes; all he did was grow in power. Sheev apparently grew in power by a lot per your estimation, and that's without the Dark Side nexus of Byss to account for too. Yoda cannot repeat his performance or even come near it per your logic. It doesn't make sense. The mental gymnastics you would have to go through to make sense of that for yourself is unprecedented; let alone you working those thoughts in a way that you can explain to someone else.

However, if you want to pretend you still subscribe to that theory, then how does Valkorion with ROTS Sheev's lightsaber skills do against Yoda in a saber battle?


When you answer that, then imagine Valkorion fights Yoda while on Korriban, then keep going further until you reach Byss' potency.

BreakofDawn wrote:

or that at the very least that we could ignore it entirely and just pretend Luke is nowhere close in power.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

You don't think Luke is anywhere close to Yoda in power.

BreakofDawn wrote:Yoda is more skilled and a lot more powerful. He has this.

So what you're doing is ignoring one duel... actually two where Luke does as well as expected/wins and then pretending Luke is far below Yoda even though Luke's only real feats in this incarnation is against someone you put above Valkorion (>>> Yoda) in raw power.

Azronger wrote:Yeah tbf the audio drama portrays the duel on Byss as in credibly one-sided. The Emperor is dancing rings around Luke unarmed.

If we combine the audio with the comic, Sheev was standing a ways away from Luke to start. Therefore all Sheev needs to do is back up to avoid some saber swings as opposed to assuming he gets right in close for no reason and weaves around Luke's swings with zero offense just for the theatre of it all. Then they have a 40-50 second saber battle after Luke force pushes him. Considering how ruthless Sheev is, that seems quite a bit better than whatever level BoD is portraying him at. Which seems to be sub-Revan level who he thinks would get destroyed by Valkorion fairly easily, and then he thinks DE Sheev off nexus is above Valk. So you know... questionable stuff.

It's Luke fighting a battle he cannot win as opposed to him fighting a battle of equals at the time. Luke just did as well as he could is what I'm saying. Even if it were entirely one-sided, it's still against someone who would make it one-sided against Yoda too, per BoD's logic.

What I'm saying is I'm impressed by that as well as the end duel. BoD doesn't count either.

Luke.

What did I say about walls of texts? 

I will remember that next time. Be prepared for headcanon with no substance and concise baby talk.

Quarren debater

Quorian Debatist wrote:I will remember that next time. Be prepared for headcanon with no substance and concise baby talk.

I'm going to reply to them eventually, but walls of text bore the crap out of me. A lot of what you said could have been condensed.

Bump. @BoD @Azronger go.

Luke probably wins. I'm leaning to Luke in terms of force abilities. Yoda puts a good fight against him in lightsaber duel but Luke still surpasses him in terms of fighting skill. Eventually, I give Luke the edge.

luke by de is sidious s greatest adversary that scaling alone gives him the win

BoD wrote:

Quorian Debatist wrote:I will remember that next time. Be prepared for headcanon with no substance and concise baby talk.

I'm going to reply to them eventually, but walls of text bore the crap out of me. A lot of what you said could have been condensed.

Actions speak louder than words. Yet another thread you failed to get back to QUORIAN DEBATIST in.