Starkiller vs ROTJ Luke

-Prime SK

All out

Luke  tbh. Even if he's not equal to Vader in power, he's equal in sabers to a far more skilled and dangerous Vader than the one who held the upper hand against SK. That's abundantly clear from every source, from Lucas to secondary material. While SK might be stronger in the Force, he's not beating Luke in sabers, and Luke is powerful enough to hold his own.

idk if Luke is equal to Vader in skill either, but all things point to luke > Starkiller, so ill say luke too. SK does seem to be smarter, has the better abilites, his skill with the force is better, and he has much greater experience and training. he still has a chance tbh.

He's stated to be equal to Vader in swordsmanship by ROTJ in the behind the scenes. He's naturally faster and more agile where Vader is strong and powerful.

SK is more about destroying things. He's a lot less subtle with his Force abilities.

that would imply that Vader with his mental 'hindrences' would be equal to him in a perfect state, which is obviously not the case. All things after ROTJ support the fact that vader> luke in possible relevant categories. im not saying luke isnt skilled, but i dont think he is equal to vader either.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:that would imply that Vader with his mental 'hindrences' would be equal to him in a perfect state, which is obviously not the case. All things after ROTJ support the fact that vader> luke in possible relevant categories. im not saying luke isnt skilled, but i dont think he is equal to vader either.

Vader was fighting as hard as he could to force Luke to use the Dark Side to defend himself. Luke fighting him even then shows his equality, albeit only in sabers. Using the Force would have accomplished nothing.

he was still mentally 'hindered'. im not saying Vader wasnt trying his hardest, but it doenst necessarily mean he was at his best either. i just cant see Vader being worse, or equal to Luke, at all, ever, at that point in time. sorry, but im pretty dead set on this. it just never made sense to me, and it was always ridiculous to me. Now, could luke have beaten him in a duel anyhow? of course. at that time, luke was faster and much more agile, and trained to fight against Vader specifically, while Vader was cocky and thought the fight wouldve been easy as kark. skill with the blade =/= agility in fighting. people seem to fuse the two, but they are different. Vader is said to be unparalleled in dueling even more than Yoda is, but yoda would skill kick his ass in a duel cuz of the same advantages luke had. doenst make him more skilled than Vader tho.

Starkiller ragdolls

Starkiller gets beaten up badly.

Starkiller destroys.

@BreakofDawn

Even if he's not equal to Vader in power, he's equal in sabers to a far more skilled and dangerous Vader than the one who held the upper hand against SK.

Do you ever get tired of bullsh*tting? Starkiller won both times against Vader in martial combat - he stomped him in their first fight, and in their second he won while utterly exhausted when Vader had specifically geared his fighting style to defend against him.

Same old bag of tricks I see.

@Meatpants Who's that addressed to, btw?

HP

SK.

Ah, gotcha.

@The Apprentice The irony.

Luke wins.

@BreakofDawn Good response, I concede.

Luke wins 7/10

PD:starkiller wank is the worst type of bandwagon

The lord of hunger wrote:Luke wins 7/10

PD:starkiller wank is the worst type of bandwagon

Reasons?

Reasons of why Luke wins or why i think starkiller is wanked a lot?

I don't see how Luke can defend himself against what SK will throw at him. Luke wins sabers but due to inferior Force mastery and powers, he loses.

The lord of hunger wrote:Reasons of why Luke wins or why i think starkiller is wanked a lot?

Reasons why Luke wins. I already know the reasons why people think SK is wanked.

1-He is the Match of Vader in lightsaber combat
2-luke is powerful enough to resist everything that starkiller throws at him

The lord of hunger wrote:1-He is the Match of Vader in lightsaber combat
2-luke is powerful enough to resist everything that starkiller throws at him

I agree with point 1, but you haven't gone into any detail as to why it puts him above SK. SK beat Vader in Lightsaber combat as well, while under highly disfavourable circumstances (outlined previously in this thread), and while Vader did increase in skill between ANH and ESB there's nothing to suggest he could stomp his ANH self like SK could and his best feats (that I'm aware of) happen prior, so really SK scales to the exact same feats Luke does and arguably scales further above them.

As for point 2, elaborate. SK has atomised half of a 300m frigate, re-directed a falling ISD and defeated a force that could have "easily overpowered" Vader. Luke doesn't have Force feats close to that, there's 0 evidence he's "powerful enough to resist everything that starkiller throws at him."

@The Apprentice

he stomped him in their first fight,

Annnd you're lying.

The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit—the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles. He thought he was ready—and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise. A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked. Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head
clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master’s belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader’s helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily. The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other’s true potential.

Contrary to what you claim, neither knew the full strength or skill of the other. Here, they both stalemate. 

Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly.

Vader > Galen in strength while Galen < Vader in speed, mainly due to Vader's prostheses.

And there were ways to fight that didn’t involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.

The two completely stalemate in telekinetic warfare.

“You are weak,” the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bonecrushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision. Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent’s defenses. The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master’s defenses, testing them to their limits. “You thought I was dead,” he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job. They fought back and forth across the observation dome. “I understand you now,” he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. “You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?”

Galen begins using mockery and taunts to throw Vader off his game, however at first it completely backfires.

The intensity of Darth Vader’s attack redoubled. “I have no father.” The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader’s misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve. Glancing over Darth Vader’s shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill … Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn’t beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader. Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.

An angered Vader was overwhelming Galen, burning his skin and causing his apprentice to "fall back" and have to rely on exploiting Vader's vulnerability to lightning to "stand and catch his breath." Note that his momentum was broken, as that will be important later on.

“I don’t need to hate you in order to beat you,” he gasped. “That’s something I will teach you now.” “You can teach me nothing,” Darth Vader’s leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice’s throat closed tight. He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.

Novel Vitiate vs Revan situation. Vader focuses on choking Galen - who doesn't try to break the hold and instead pushes Vader - and is thus vulnerable to a counter-attack. It's pretty clear as well that "throwing Darth Vader backward across the room" doesn't literally mean he was blasted across the room, otherwise he'd have ended up on Sheev's lap.

For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.

Vader easily recovers from the push and easily gets back into the fight. Note also that Vader is hindered by his prostheses in this fight, displaying "occasional clumsiness" despite having 17 years to fully adapt. 

“I don’t hate you,” the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. “I pity you.” With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. “You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn’t your idea. It was the Emperor’s, and it’s what he’s already done to you.” A strip of Darth Vader’s cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. “You are his creature just as I was yours—but you’ve never had the strength to rebel. That’s why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I’ll make sure you don’t, either.” Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.

Galen's mockery and taunts begin to work here. Having broken Vader's original momentum, Vader doesn't try to overpower Galen as he did before, and instead tries to retreat. Note that every time Vader has been enraged he's launched into an offensive frenzy, both in this novel, against ESB Luke, and against countless other Force users. This is different. Rather than overpower Galen (as we have been shown he is capable of), he instead chooses to withdraw to collect himself.

“I will kill you,” he said, “to set you free.” The lightsabers flashed again—and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader’s lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice’s blade to slash deeply across his armored throat.

Galen exploits his superior speed and Vader's "occasional clumsiness", slashing him across the throat. This is where the duel turns in Galen's favour.

Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound. There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was. For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader’s respirator. Then the Dark Lord laughed. It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse. Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.

Galen, enraged, exploits Vader's briefly lowered defences and deals two more severe injuries: a "deep wound" across his should, and a stab wound into his thigh, where his leg connects with his prosthetic.

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.

This is interesting. Let's see what it means when a machine is whining, with the help of three different real life examples of machinery. 

First, a boiler:

The boiler is buzzing or whining

A buzzing or whining sound coming from inside your boiler is a genuine cause for concern that is typically caused by worn pump bearings, a defective burner or vibrating fans. Unfortunately, these are all problems that should only be diagnosed and remedied by a qualified professional. Action should be taken sooner rather than later to prevent further damage.

Example no. 2 is from a car:

A whining noise from the engine could be due to problems with the transmission. Over time, like anything else, the gears of your car wear away with constant use. The transmission fluid may also run low and cause the whining noise from the engine.

Annnnd example no. 3 is from a water pump:

A loud whining or screaching noise can be indicative of cavitation. Cavitation results in the erosion of metal components. ... Cavitation results from demand for hydraulic fluid not being met. Typically (but not exclusively), this happens at the pump.

What do all of these have in common? A fault is indicated by a high-pitched whining sound. Which, as you can see below...

Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs


...is exactly what's described here. What's even better is that we have explicit confirmation that Vader's limbs were injured, weakening him and his ability to fight. So stop peddling the "Galen overpowered and ragdolled a combat ready Vader" kriff.

Vader prepared for combat again.

Look at this. It's as if Vader wasn't ready for combat at the moment when Galen ragdolled him. Imagine that. 

His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice’s father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.

This is great. Galen overpowered a wounded, unfocused and unprepared Vader. Such a great showing.

The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward. He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing. The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze. Darth Vader’s helmet had been ripped away by the blast. Beneath was the face of the man who had stolen and enslaved him, a pathetic, hairless thing covered in wrinkles and old scar tissue. Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised

Annnd that's how the duel ends. Oh, and by the way? Before you try and say about the limbs, note how it again says that Vader's "Servomotors whined and strained". 

You have a fascinating concept of a "stomp" that lasted three pages and only ended with the use of taunts and when Vader was injured and unfocused.

and in their second he won while utterly exhausted

Oh bullsh*t:

The echoes faded, and he felt a peculiar kind of quiet descend. The air was misted red, and every surface was slick with blood. He tasted it on his tongue and smelled it in his nose. His blood. A veritable ocean of it. He maintained a defensive pose, breathing rhythmically and deeply, regaining his strength. The tips of his lightsabers shook. He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being.

He began recovering his strength as soon as the fight with the clones ended, and you and I both know how quickly SK recovers from weariness. He then had a few minutes on top of that when in deep thought, then arguing with Vader, then leaping from platform to platform to get to the top of the cloning tower while using one of the least strenuous Force abilities. 

when Vader had specifically geared his fighting style to defend against him.

No, Vader improved his technique by learning how to fight more cautiously and not giving into emotion. It was not specifically geared to fight SK. Hell, that's not even hinted at. 

Just quit with the exaggerations and half-truths, already. It's getting tiresome. He didn't even win in a straight fight, lmao. Vader is winning throughout the fight:


Vader’s defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller’s, every time. He may have defeated Vader before, but Vader had learned from that mistake. He knew the measure of his former apprentice now.


But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-


Starkiller found himself backed up almost to the edge of the cloning spire’s roof. One more step, and he would fall, and to fall would give Vader the high ground. That might not result in his death, but it would certainly end the fight. It needed to end now, or else it might never end. Blow after blow rained on him, forcing him back. There had to be a way to free himself and avenge Juno at the same time … but a stalemate seemed unavoidable. Any move he made was sure to lead him to an indefensible position.

SK even notes that he can't defeat Vader as he did before. The only time he gains the upper hand in the fight is when he - surprise, surprise - uses lightning.