Vader vs Yoda

I know, I was joking.

Jake wrote:

Rohirrim wrote:Still, any challenge Luke might have posed to Vader is a result of the Sith Lord deciding not to destroy Luke whenever he had a chance to do so. The following quotes indicate there was no relativity at all:

The experienced Sith Lord easily defeats the untrained Skywalker, chopping off his right hand. 
- Star Wars: Galactic Atlas.


"You'll find that I am full of surprises," luke said, but he was posturing. He was no match for the Sith Lord. 
- The Empire Strikes Back - 6 stories in 1.

Luke dueled Vader, but proved no match for the Sith Lord's Force powers and experience with a lightsaber.
- Luke Skywalker Biography Gallery, starwars.com.

I'll rephrase; Luke had enough strength to challenge Vader but ultimately failed to bring that power to bear because he was far too hasty, so all of your quotes are irrelevant. The above statement isn't factoring in any Vader restraint at all, only that Empire Strikes Back Luke has the power to challenge him, period. 

The idea that an author wrote "He had enough strength to challenge Vader" with the idea that you, the reader, is supposed to add a few extra layers and interpret it as "Luke had the strength to challenge Vader only because his father is massively holding back, otherwise Luke would be easily destroyed" is ridiculous. Your interpretation of the quote defeats the purpose of writing it into a sourcebook in the first place.

Luke would indeed be easily destroyed, this is evident from both the movie and the quotes I provided. He was "easily defeated" and "no match" for the Sith Lord. Here's yet another quote from Ultimate Star Wars - New Edition (2019):
"When Luke faces Vader once more on Cloud City, his skills are still no match for the Sith Lord's mastery".
So, even if Luke had the raw power, he is not skilled enough to use it properly. 

Thing is, pre-ESB Luke has demonstrated the raw power to shake a Star Destroyer. It might challenge Vader in that department, but not in overall combative prowess, where Luke is still "no match". If you want to argue that Star Destroyer-shaking raw power wouldn't challenge Yoda's raw power, that's up to you to prove.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

SithSauce wrote:Don't bother responding to Jake, he's just going to find excuses to lowball Vader even more. That's what he does best

If you disagree with what Jake says, you should explain why he's lowballing Vader rather than trying to dissuade against dialogue.

But Jake legit trolls on here though?

What is this crap, I thought I already made a thread about this match up.

Forgot to say, there are beings pegged as "rivals" of Vader who have all been no match for him. Note that "his position in the Empire" referred to his place as Sidious' apprentice, a skill/power based rank.


The cited quote is basically meaningless. Luke could "challenge" Vader? These beings were all "rivals" of Vader, and all of them were completely tooled by him.

@Rohirrim Luke would indeed be easily destroyed, this is evident from both the movie and the quotes I provided. He was "easily defeated" and "no match" for the Sith Lord. Here's yet another quote from Ultimate Star Wars - New Edition (2019): "When Luke faces Vader once more on Cloud City, his skills are still no match for the Sith Lord's mastery". So, even if Luke had the raw power, he is not skilled enough to use it properly.

A very important man behind this movie said that the fight was only "slightly one-sided", and I don't think we should discount that now just because his words are no longer gospel; George should be treated like any author/writer/creator, and in this case the authority doesn't support a "no match" "easily defeated" lightsaber duel. You can argue that your sources trump Lucas's words, but what he wanted to convey in that contest doesn't come even remotely close to what you posited. As clarified by its maker; Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker on Bespin was made to showcase Luke's lightsaber skills in a slightly one-sided match, with no mention of Vader holding back one-shot tiers worth of power (link). There's also no reason for Vader to be drastically holding back - from killing yes, but not in general. If his goal is to convert his son to the dark side, to show him the power he could wield, what better way to do that than by dominating him with it?

The quotes you provided don't conflict with anything I said. Luke can have the strength to challenge but fail to actualise that due to his haste, thus making him no match for Vader. Don't assume either, that this hastiness equates to a lack of skill or applies to every opponent Luke can possibly fight, or every single duel with Vader, as this 'rushing' can be attributed to Luke's fear of Vader and the desire to quickly kill the murderer of Anakin Skywalker - Feelings and desires that lessen after Luke realises that Darth Vader is his father. Against anyone else, any duel after this point, Luke won't be as hasty.

Thing is, pre-ESB Luke has demonstrated the raw power to shake a Star Destroyer. It might challenge Vader in that department, but not in overall combative prowess, where Luke is still "no match". If you want to argue that Star Destroyer-shaking raw power wouldn't challenge Yoda's raw power, that's up to you to prove.

I feel it's flawed to compare the strength of characters via whether or not they can always do X big telekinetic feat, I'd much prefer something more Force-user to Force-user, but if we're going there; a more powerful Luke on a planet very strong in the Force - yes I know it's dark side but Dagobah isn't Korriban, it's "teeming with life", meaning there's plenty of Force energy even a Jedi can draw from - utterly fails to raise an X-Wing, a feat he believes to be impossible, while Yoda casually pulls it off. This is a clear-cut comparison between (an aging, resigned) Yoda and Luke. Yoda isn't bound under the Star Destroyer feat, but Luke is capped far below via the X-Wing comparison.

A very important man behind this movie said that the fight was only "slightly one-sided", and I don't think we should discount that now just because his words are no longer gospel; George should be treated like any author/writer/creator, and in this case the authority doesn't support a "no match" "easily defeated" lightsaber duel. You can argue that your sources trump Lucas's words, but what he wanted to convey in that contest doesn't come even remotely close to what you posited. As clarified by its maker; Darth Vader vs Luke Skywalker on Bespin was made to showcase Luke's lightsaber skills in a slightly one-sided match, with no mention of Vader holding back one-shot tiers worth of power (link) . There's also no reason for Vader to be drastically holding back - from killing yes, but not in general. If his goal is to convert his son to the dark side, to show him the power he could wield, what better way to do that than by dominating him with it?

Lucas has multiple quotes, including separating the duel into three parts:

“This fight goes through three different sets. One in the carbon freezing chamber, one down here below the carbon freezing chamber which allows us to go into this giant shaft that goes to the bottom of the city so now we have this giant shaft that gives us the chance to have these hanging in the abyss scenes but it also makes the situation much more threatening and the fight more interesting ‘cause they’re fighting over an infinite space and it just makes it more and more hopeless that Luke is going to get out of it, you know ‘cause he’s getting more and more trapped.”


-


“I like this shot in particular. It’s a big, long wing shot…it stacks everything up. It makes Vader look huge, and Luke look very small, very weak and Vader very powerful. And this is where Vader reveals himself in terms of what his ambitions are, which is to have him join him to help overthrow the Emperor.”



Vader is testing Luke throughout the fight until the end, where in the third part he's not only stated by Lucas to be deliberately made to look "very powerful" while Luke "looks very small, very weak" but intends to finally reveal himself, rather than doing so at the beginning of the duel like he could have. He wanted to test Luke's abilities: first part in skill, second in the Force, and then in the third he completely dominates and quickly ends the fight. Lucas suggests that Vader was in control the entire time, and when he wanted to end the fight and try and convert Luke, he ended it quickly.

Yes, I also think the shots in which Vader standing on a higher platform while Luke is crawling away carefully onto a precarious ledge with one hand make Vader look really powerful and Luke small and weak.

Like seeing Vader gloating over a completely beaten opponent makes me question the entire rest of the duel. Probably wasn't even a good fight per the end scene.

Like how you look at a shot like this and deduce anything other than the fact that Vader completely stomped Luke the entire time and he probably didn't even get hit in the shoulder 5 seconds prior?

Yes, I also think the shots in which Vader standing on a higher platform while Luke is crawling away carefully onto a precarious ledge with one hand make Vader look really powerful and Luke small and weak.

Like seeing Vader gloating over a completely beaten opponent makes me question the entire rest of the duel. Probably wasn't even a good fight per the end scene.

Like how you look at a shot like this and deduce anything other than the fact that Vader completely stomped Luke the entire time and he probably didn't even get hit in the shoulder 5 seconds prior?

He was talking about the bit where Vader emerges from the shadows and drives Luke back...

@Breakofdawn I'm not seeing anything meaningful there, at all. Luke being hopeless to escape the fight because it's such a large space proves what? That Luke can't win? Never argued that he would. Talking about shots that make Darth Vader look particularly potent next to an end of duel Luke, doesn't really go against anything I've posted either, and what's the combat-related significance of Vader not revealing himself? Camera shots and Vader's delayed spilling of ambitions doesn't conflict with Lucas's 2014 "slightly one-sided" comment.

Post your link then because the words directly describe Vader monologuing to Luke after Luke was beaten. I'd be curious to see all the parts where Vader was talking about overthrowing Sheev though to see what one matches up best.

"And this where Vader reveals..."

Post your link then because the words directly describe Vader monologuing to Luke after Luke was beaten. I'd be curious to see all the parts where Vader was talking about overthrowing Sheev though to see what one matches up best.

"And this where Vader reveals..."

I don't have a link, lol. It's an audio file I downloaded before it was taken down from Youtube. Name is Star Wars - Episode V - Empire Strikes Back (1980) - 2004 DVD Commentary with executive producer George Lucas, director Irvin Kershner, sound designer Ben Burrt, VFX supervisor Dennis Muren and actor Carrie Fisher.


Backing of the video (just like the one posted above) has the scene playing and Lucas watching it and describing what's happening. The audio has the two fighting in the back, with Lucas saying the above just as Vader emerges and begins driving Luke back. It starts with the beginning of the fight and concludes as Vader cuts off Luke's hand.

Jake wrote:@Breakofdawn I'm not seeing anything meaningful there, at all. Luke being hopeless to escape the fight because it's such a large space proves what? That Luke can't win? Never argued that he would. Talking about shots that make Darth Vader look particularly potent next to an end of duel Luke, doesn't really go against anything I've posted either, and what's the combat-related significance of Vader not revealing himself? Camera shots and Vader's delayed spilling of ambitions doesn't conflict with Lucas's 2014 "slightly one-sided" comment.

@Jake Bear with me here because my brain is honestly fried from essays today (so I'm sorry if this is a load of bullcrap), but the way Lucas talks about how it becomes "more and more hopeless that Luke is going to get out of it" doesn't really describe a "slightly" one-sided fight. By the time of the end of the fight, it's obvious that Luke isn't getting out of this or beating Vader, especially now that Vader is actually going on the offensive and all out (faster breathing, moving a lot faster, being a lot more aggressive than before).

Also, Vader easily disarms Luke near the start of the fight to boot. We see throughout the first part of the fight that Vader is trying to get Luke into the freezing chamber, but once Luke escapes he's clearly impressed and continues testing him, despite being shown to be able to disarm him fairly quickly as well as knocking him down multiple times. 

I'll also say that Lucas actually isn't the authority on this film. He concedes to Kershner in regards to how he shoots the scenes and how he stages the fights and stuff. Lucas' role was to simply resolve any problems with the story or character motivations. For example, Kershner in the commentary believes in the Hitchcockian principle (a protagonist needs to face difficulties and have a great antagonist to flourish) and emphasises Vader's strength. It was his decision to have Luke being overwhelmed by projectiles in the second stage of the fight:

"I always hoped that the audience would understand that Darth Vader was pulling these things at him. I think they do, 'cause we know his power. And then I had him hit a few times here, one after the other (object hits Luke) boom (second hits Luke) boom."


"And of course our hero has to keep going. The more difficult you make it for the hero, the better it is. And the nice thing about Darth Vader is that he's the perfect bad guy, because he's got so much power and he knows so much, he makes the hero better. That's the Hitchcockian principle. You know, on a melodrama, you have to have a terrific antagonist for the protagonist to really flourish, and Darth Vader provides that."


Luke isn't meant to be a peer of Vader at this point. It's all building up to the dramatic reveal that Darth Vader is Luke's Skywalker. Vader has no intention of badly harming or killing Luke at this point, per Lucas himself (will add the quote when I find it).

Jake wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Literally all that quote means is that Vader couldn't instantly dispatch him. Impressive, but Vader also couldn't instantly dispatch the likes of two inquisitors despite being far more powerful than him. They still "challenged" him in a sense by fighting him, rather than him just steamrolling them off the bat.

That interpretation also defeats the purpose of the quote. If this challenging is limited only to being beyond instantly dispatch tier, then I expect to see each member of the inquisitorius and half of all Order 66 survivors with accolades claiming they too have the "strength to challenge Vader." I can appeal to authorial intent all day here. If challenge in this context merely meant "fight", why the ambiguity? Why not just phrase it as 'Luke had the strength to fight Vader'? 

Almost anyone has the strength to fight Darth Vader, but Luke has the strength to challenge him.

Amusing you use authorial intent here when authorial intent is the thing that favours Vader the most in the new canon with countless quotes about how powerfull he is (with even some absurd ones like the Fallen Order one).
For someone to not see that Disney wants Vader to be uber powerfull, would mean to not have followed the new canon at all.
Even if there is some reltivity (which i completly disagree with) it is just a low showing like all characters have. Maul had problems with Pre Vizsla for exemple. 
Anyway, should be clear that the guy who can bust an army of 1000 rebels (some of them using tanks) can easly defeat ESB Luke and the only reason the fight took that long was because he was toying with him as is evident from the dialogue. Is the only rationalization unless you think ESB Luke is an army buster.
BTW, i still think Yoda wins this but is not a stomp at all.

@Jake: Regarding your most prominent points:

You can argue that your sources trump Lucas's words, but what he wanted to convey in that contest doesn't come even remotely close to what you posited.

I do. Lucas' words are subject to being retconned under Disney.

If his goal is to convert his son to the dark side, to show him the power he could wield, what better way to do that than by dominating him with it?

He was visibly testing Luke's abilities and goading him into releasing his anger, in order to show him the power of the dark side.

The quotes you provided don't conflict with anything I said. Luke can have the strength to challenge but fail to actualise that due to his haste, thus making him no match for Vader. Don't assume either, that this hastiness equates to a lack of skill or applies to every opponent Luke can possibly fight, or every single duel with Vader, as this 'rushing' can be attributed to Luke's fear of Vader and the desire to quickly kill the murderer of Anakin Skywalker - Feelings and desires that lessen after Luke realises that Darth Vader is his father. Against anyone else, any duel after this point, Luke won't be as hasty.

The quotes I provided literally say "his skills are still no match" for Vader's. It's also quite apparent that lack of skill applies to other situations, as Luke has never come close to replicate Vader's army busting feats. 

I feel it's flawed to compare the strength of characters via whether or not they can always do X big telekinetic feat, I'd much prefer something more Force-user to Force-user, but if we're going there; a more powerful Luke on a planet very strong in the Force - yes I know it's dark side but Dagobah isn't Korriban, it's "teeming with life", meaning there's plenty of Force energy even a Jedi can draw from - utterly fails to raise an X-Wing, a feat he believes to be impossible, while Yoda casually pulls it off. This is a clear-cut comparison between (an aging, resigned) Yoda and Luke. Yoda isn't bound under the Star Destroyer feat, but Luke is capped far below via the X-Wing comparison.

Luke has strength to shake a Star Destroyer and thus has strength to lift the X-Wing, and Yoda knows it. But Luke lacks the skill to control and summon that strength at will, which is why Vader brutalizes him via TK and Luke is incapable of defending himself. Both Yoda and Vader >> Luke in applicable Force abilities in a fight, via direct comparison. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say Yoda and Vader are equal, I actually rank Yoda higher and said he will win this fight.

BreakofDawn wrote:

Post your link then because the words directly describe Vader monologuing to Luke after Luke was beaten. I'd be curious to see all the parts where Vader was talking about overthrowing Sheev though to see what one matches up best.

"And this where Vader reveals..."

I don't have a link, lol. It's an audio file I downloaded before it was taken down from Youtube. Name is Star Wars - Episode V - Empire Strikes Back (1980) - 2004 DVD Commentary with executive producer George Lucas, director Irvin Kershner, sound designer Ben Burrt, VFX supervisor Dennis Muren and actor Carrie Fisher.


Backing of the video (just like the one posted above) has the scene playing and Lucas watching it and describing what's happening. The audio has the two fighting in the back, with Lucas saying the above just as Vader emerges and begins driving Luke back. It starts with the beginning of the fight and concludes as Vader cuts off Luke's hand.

Convenient.

So if we are to trust you, we have to insert Lucas' words directly with what's happening on screen even though he's already talking about the scene as a whole "Where Vader reveals" and we forego the unquestionable scenes where Luke looked frail and Vader huge and looking down in favor of the fight? Like we already know he's talking about the entire scene, and the most fitting descriptions happen after the fight. Even if not, merely looking a certain way doesn't prove that unless you want to argue Vader was getting tagged and having issues with a weak and frail being. Or that this would in anyway go against "slightly one-sided" when Vader looking more powerful go with that anyway.

And this is also ignoring that Vader was in a full on attack at this point in time with Luke being tired anyway. Would you think anything of it if Vader were described as frail from Luke's final attack in ROTJ? Would you think that particular scene described the entire fight and Lucas' entire thought process behind it?
Oh wait that whole fight proved nothing I forgot...

But yes, Vader looked really powerful so therefore Lucas didn't think it was a slightly one-sided fight or that Vader was challenged. Good logic.

Why is Lucas' word relevant for a canon fight? I'm not saying that we should just ignore him but his word is no longer canon at all. What he said should not be used as strong evidence for any canon debate.

@Rohirrim Luke has strength to shake a Star Destroyer and thus has strength to lift the X-Wing, and Yoda knows it. But Luke lacks the skill to control and summon that strength at will, which is why Vader brutalizes him via TK and Luke is incapable of defending himself. Both Yoda and Vader >> Luke in applicable Force abilities in a fight, via direct comparison. Disclaimer: I'm not trying to say Yoda and Vader are equal, I actually rank Yoda higher and said he will win this fight.

Right but Luke would know he has the strength to lift the X-Wing if he felt that the Star Destroyer feat was truly a more powerful display, yet he still claims the task is impossible in general, as in regardless of mindset. This is clear when he's staggered that even Yoda could lift it. Challenging Vader level is where Luke's applicable power is at, he just failed to make use of it because he was too hasty. Don't try to muddy the waters by framing this as a raw-power-only situation. 

I do. Lucas' words are subject to being retconned under Disney.

Not a main argument, you missed the point completely; that being the intent behind the movie fight wasn't a domination at all.

He was visibly testing Luke's abilities and goading him into releasing his anger, in order to show him the power of the dark side.

Luke releases his anger early on, feeling it "coursing through him" and letting it "control" his actions - at which point he drives Vader back and smashes him down. Luke has to actively stop himself from continuing to draw off it. If Vader wanted Luke to feel the power of the dark side, he accomplished that at the very start.

The quotes I provided literally say "his skills are still no match" for Vader's. It's also quite apparent that lack of skill applies to other situations, as Luke has never come close to replicate Vader's army busting feats. 

What are you not getting? They aren't a match and I've said this, but it's because Luke was too hasty, perhaps my wording was off. Good argument, lack of army busting feats means being a challenge is debunked. Luke is bested by a handful of thugs in Shadows of the Empire, and then goes on to equal the army soloing Vader a short time later. Expanded Universe content sure, but group combat comparisons have historically been a terrible way to gauge one's power and skill. I'd argue that Luke isn't as confident and therefore less inclined to attempt such a thing, and perhaps isn't in as many situations where he can do that as Vader, but that's not really relevant. Again, I prefer Force-user to Force-user comparisons, and we know that Luke is a challenge with a standard mindset.

DarthAdi wrote:Why is Lucas' word relevant for a canon fight? I'm not saying that we should just ignore him but his word is no longer canon at all. What he said should not be used as strong evidence for any canon debate.

When someone is arguing that the movie was meant to show an easy victory for Vader, you can use the writer's words to debunk that idea. No one is suggesting Lucas' words are Canon, just that they can be used to clarify.

@Jake: I don't feel the need to respond, at this point I'll just let everybody form his own opinion.

i wonder why they make Yoda and Sheev seem so untouchable all the time. makes the story very boring, cuz we know that are never under any danger or stress or anything like that. Dooku had some of the biggest karking hype when he first came out- Yoda can destroy him, and Dooku kriff his pants in Sheev's presence. Vader was the chosen one, but he still fears Sidious. SK not only fought Sidious, he killed himself while doing so, but somehow, he seemed to show more fear towards Yoda when he first met him. How does that kriff work??

@breakofdawn Bear with me here because my brain is honestly fried from essays today (so I'm sorry if this is a load of bullcrap), but the way Lucas talks about how it becomes "more and more hopeless that Luke is going to get out of it" doesn't really describe a "slightly" one-sided fight. By the time of the end of the fight, it's obvious that Luke isn't getting out of this or beating Vader, especially now that Vader is actually going on the offensive and all out (faster breathing, moving a lot faster, being a lot more aggressive than before).

This is true; as the fight goes on Luke greatly tires and realises he can't defeat Vader, both Lucas and I agree with that. But Luke being hopeless can fit just fine with Lucas's comment; victory is out the window for our protag, but he's still only "gradually" forced back to the gantry and while there, lands a hit, making this probably the perfect example of "slightly one-sided." 

Also, Vader easily disarms Luke near the start of the fight to boot. We see throughout the first part of the fight that Vader is trying to get Luke into the freezing chamber, but once Luke escapes he's clearly impressed and continues testing him, despite being shown to be able to disarm him fairly quickly as well as knocking him down multiple times. 


I'll also say that Lucas actually isn't the authority on this film. He concedes to Kershner in regards to how he shoots the scenes and how he stages the fights and stuff. Lucas' role was to simply resolve any problems with the story or character motivations. For example, Kershner in the commentary believes in the Hitchcockian principle (a protagonist needs to face difficulties and have a great antagonist to flourish) and emphasises Vader's strength. It was his decision to have Luke being overwhelmed by projectiles in the second stage of the fight:

Right but the idea is that Luke is instantaneously learning as he goes - I'd also argue that the disarming is due to cockiness - which is why Luke later in the fight is barely being forced back by a Vader who is fighting much harder than he was at the time of the disarming.

The trilogy being George’s vision - getting the final word on all things - and him co-writing certainly makes him an authority, even if he’s not the authority. You can’t just hand wave away Lucas's comments with ‘he doesn’t matter as much as this guy’, especially not when that guy's comments don't contradict George's own. Kershner emphasising Vader's strength and having Luke be overwhelmed by force-propelled objects doesn't conflict with it being only slightly one sided, as we see the fight shift back and forth, with Vader disarming Luke, Luke forcing Vader back and off the platform, then Vader overwhelming him with machinery, and finally the ending is a grueling, gradual contest wherein Vader gets tagged.

Luke isn't meant to be a peer of Vader at this point. It's all building up to the dramatic reveal that Darth Vader is Luke's Skywalker. Vader has no intention of badly harming or killing Luke at this point, per Lucas himself (will add the quote when I find it).

You’re debating phantom positions here. I’m not pushing for them to be peers, for Luke to have a 50/50 shot at winning, I’m merely arguing against the idea that it was Lucas’ intention to have Vader easily belt Luke around, something made clear in the featurettes, Behind the Magic, and the script;

A quick sword exchange and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange and Vader retreats. Luke presses forward. Vader retreats before Luke’s skilful sword. Vader blocks the sword but loses his balance and falls into the outer rim of pipes. 

Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back Script 

Throughout the sword fight, Lucas wanted to display Luke’s skill with his lightsaber.

Star Wars: Behind the Magic

George says in the Birth of the Lightsaber featurette that Luke is now proficient enough to face Vader, with the fight being slightly one-sided to display Luke’s skill with his lightsaber. It couldn't be more clear that this isn't meant to be a stomp. We know that Vader doesn't want to harm Luke, no need to trouble yourself.

Not sure why such interest in Lucas' intent. Putting aside he wasn't the director, if the new bosses want to interpret this fight in a different light, they're entitled to do so.

New sourcebooks writers want to interpret the fight in a way it wasn't meant to be interpreted? Gosh we should listen to them, they seem like smart people!

as if kriff like this hasnt been done before lol