Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

Hett is likely better than Clone Wars Padwan Anakin who is >> ROTJ Vader by feat, by skill and by not having movement problems that normal functioning people would bemoan.  Hett wins.

Vader has fodderized Ferus olin, Anakin's equal. Vader is confirmed to be stronger than Asajj at her prime, who is somewhat equal to anakin at that point. Vader is sidious' strongest apprentice, above dooku, who is stronger than Anakin. Vader is at least equal to Luke in ROTJ, who is stronger than ROTS obi wan, who is stronger than Anakin back then. this goes on and on. as for feats, Vader also fares better my guy lol. and skill, Vader is more skilled than starkiller and Any'a kuro, both of whom are better than Anakin at that point. the literal only thing anakin has above him is agility and nerf herder lol

Ziggy lowballing once again.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:Vader has fodderized Ferus olin, Anakin's equal. Vader is confirmed to be stronger than Asajj at her prime, who is somewhat equal to anakin at that point. Vader is sidious' strongest apprentice, above dooku, who is stronger than Anakin. Vader is at least equal to Luke in ROTJ, who is stronger than ROTS obi wan, who is stronger than Anakin back then. this goes on and on. as for feats, Vader also fares better my guy lol. and skill, Vader is more skilled than starkiller and Any'a kuro, both of whom are better than Anakin at that point. the literal only thing anakin has above him is agility and nerf herder lol

Citations for Ferus = Anakin ?

Citations for Vader > Assaj  ?

Citations for (suited) Vader > Dooku  ? 

Citations for Luke in ROTJ > Kenobi in ROTS


As for my claim... 


Word of Jesus : Vader is not scratching PT all stars as a shadow of his former self per Lucas

Fightsaber Article : more than just a cereal box quote, first named and explained the seven forms of lightsaber combat that are referenced everywhere in Legends.... and even in canon, claims Vader is a shadow of his former self - written in 2002  Before ROTS, before the micro series and many succeeding stories in Legends.  This is your staple accolade for Anakin as of AOTC > Suited Darth Vader 


Feat Stuff : 



Dreadnaught is bigger and thrustier than any object Vader touches with the force, despite four + decades of accumulating feats since the dawn of the franchise 1977.  He has the advantage of literally existing as a character longer than anyone else, yet he still often falls short of features than many,  Including K'kruhk. His role in The Force Unleashed, which deliberately exaggerates things, still has him fail to stop a Tie Figher, a ship way smaller than the above and caps out at 1200KPH in atmosphere.  So there is your staple feats comparison.  


Logic : An fair interpretation of lightsaber combat - the blades of fire seem to cut without any friction, so strength takes a back seat to speed and manuverabilty.  Likewise Vader's body takes a back seat to keeping his life support and senses somewhat functional.  He's stifled enough in his movements for him to be unfavourable against anyone with a name and a lightsaber. 

Luke vs Anakin :  the latter is better in potential and has more training under his belt than the last incarnation of Luke who fought Vader.  If that's not enough, than multiple articles including George Lucas himself implies that Vader vs ESB Luke wasn't a stomp, when it really should have been if you want him anywhere near Anakin 


Verdict : below TPM Kenobi, let alone AOTC Anakin.

I hope you are having a nice holiday




We'll begin this section by prefacing that although this may or may have not been necessarily stated in the main sources; that these issues and factors have been prevalent in the overarching theme of Star Wars as a whole. I feel that they are very important factors that you're simply choosing to ignore or rather unsure of how they correspond to the issues at hand.

Jedi Knight

Celeste Morne was a young Jedi Knight at the time of being fused with Muur's talisman. I feel like any Jedi Knight has the capability to become a Jedi Master as long as their training is uninterrupted or they live long enough. What this means is that on a surface level Morne - being a young Jedi Knight - still had a lot of growth left in her to hone her powers enough to become a Master. This doesn't mean that every Master is more powerful than every Knight of course, but it does mean that every Master has grown in power from their days as a Knight. Her being young only galvanizes growth. Seems fair no? The idea is that Morne still has room to grow in power by title alone.

Young as a Force User = Room to Grow
Jedi Knight = Potential to become Master

Now you could, of course, ask as to what potential she exhibited, and that would be a fair question. The potential she showed was doing incredibly well against Vader to a point where she outdid or fought on par with many PT Jedi Masters against the same Vader. That's not saying she was directly comparable to Vader without a full examination, but it is saying that she was capable of fighting to the level of some Jedi Masters as a meager Jedi Knight. I don't know about you but that speaks well to her potential had she a lot more experience and training in the Force.

So if you were to give a Young Jedi Knight with the power to fight off Vader comparable to Jedi Masters oh I don't know... 156 years of training in isolation while fighting a battle of attrition in her head; do you think it possible she grew in power? Do you think once she knew that the Sith still lived that she may have trained a little bit to beat the being you felt dominated her?

Spoiler:

Dark Side

Celeste was already having issues with the Dark Side by the time she met Luke. She was scorned, felt betrayed by Vader and her Order with 20 years to stew on it, knew the Sith were still around and was lonely. So lonely in fact that she preferred having Muur around than nothing at all (so it wasn't entirely negative for her). She might have always identified as a Jedi, but she wasn't opposed to having brief stints or even outright abuses of the Dark Side to help her in battle or to simply help her longevity to her cause. We know she became adept at using Muur's amulet without invoking his say when she extended her life, called on his powers in battle, or turned everyone into Rakghouls for 156 years. She also has the advantage of an actual Sith Master in her ears likely telling her tales of the Dark Side and was trying to make her relent for 15 decades as well. Basically any sort of brushes with the Dark Side is usually a cause for growth in any user. The fact that she didn't fully fall to the Dark Side this entire time despite having something steeped in Dark Side around her neck speaks well to her abilities again. The fact that she knows how to use this artifact and her feelings to gain power in battle shows a want to gain power. Which means she is not opposed to using a forbidden source to gain power.  She may not have practiced enough to become a full Sith Lord on her own but she does show a certain degree of proficiency in the arts. A lot more than a random Padawan gaining power through one outburst. Unlike Padawans, however, she never swore off this power. She was fully OK with using and Mastering it without Muur's say.

If she is capable of touching upon the Dark Side without falling into its allure for well over a century then it's likely this would factor into a power growth as well. It's also a testament to her huge willpower that she could resist falling for that long with an actual Sith Lord in her ears and power at her command both physically and militarized (with her kingdom of Rakghouls). It's basically unheard of considering how many others have completely fallen through far less exposure or for lurdo reasons.

Would you say that practicing with the Dark Side for 156 years would be enough to incite some sort of growth?

Spoiler:

Karness Muur

Next is Karness Muur with the full knowledge of how to call out his own abilities. We saw Celeste with her abilities calling on power from the Amulet, but Muur felt that she could only win once she ceded control to him. The implication and logic there is that Muur himself could use the full range of his powers better than her. That Muur with full control of his own abilities and her body would be more powerful than simply all her own training and drawing forth strength. While this already defeats your argument - that she was weaker - it plays into another powerup. That no matter how strong she can possibly get, that Muur can add power to hers and increase that level. That's not to say Muur > Morne exactly, but it does mean that Muur + Morne > Morne alone. It allows Muur to come in and piggyback off of all her internal growth and amplify it to higher levels. It could just be the full range of his powers, or it could be an amplifying effect with the Dark Side taking full hold of her; we don't know. What we do know however is that it's above what she can summon with all the tools available to her... and there's a lot.

It is simply another factor in what happened against Krayt. Vector took a well-trained young Jedi Knight with a lot of raw potential and gave her 156 years to hone her abilities - both light and dark - with the ability to invoke pure Dark Side strength from her amulet - missing from Vader fight - and then an Ace-in-the-hole in Muur to further boost her power.

Even trying to mitigate the results of her training still wind out with her being more powerful than she was against Vader:

"Maybe she only experienced a boost like Vader did from 19-18BBY?" Still a Boost
"Maybe she only experienced the type of Dark Side growth a random Acolyte would get?" Still a Boost
"Maybe Karness Muur only added half of Karness Muur's full power to her own?" Still a Boost

Vader fighting Morne is just Vader vs Morne directly out of a 4000-year coma. No expertise, no additional power, nothing. It's not possible to scale the Morne that fought Vader favorably to the Morne that Krayt fought. Even if you ignore the time-lapse, you still have to account for the additional power she was afforded against Krayt.

But yes,  Celeste Morne as a random KOTOR Jedi Knight > Celeste Morne who can hold off against the most powerful Sith in the galaxy - who has backup - and can tutaminis lightning, and then create a massive lightning storm and be considered above Krayt once she allows Muur control.

I know this isn't pertinent to the thread at hand, but you're the one that brought it up for no reason. It just doesn't make sense logically.

Spoiler:

Willpower

While her control waned over time, that doesn't mean that he overpowered her. She was still capable of keeping him in check or even wresting control when he was deep into control over her. He eroded her inhibitions to him but not to the rest of the galaxy. Imagine if you will that you had the spirit of Mike Pence fighting for control of your body for 156 years and he is just laying into you every second he gets. He's even inventing new slurs and things that just don't make sense like sugar tickler, caramel lover, Uncle Dahmer, and even the dreaded pickle sniffer. Now you keep him out of control of your body and even make him view some things that he may not find that cool to watch... but he's still there, every day, in your ear. He is constantly berating you but you don't give in. You can't give in. Imagine the longest time you would be able to put up with this. Now imagine someone comes along and starts berating you for 1 minute of insults that pale in comparison to what you deal with on a daily basis. Are you going to instantly fold to this lesser level of abuse or will you be more hardened, more prepared to deal with it?

That's where Celeste was at. She may not have wanted to deal with Muur anymore but she was perfectly capable of fighting off any who tried to interfere with her objective. She was utterly toying with anyone who wanted it in Legacy for example and only Cade was capable of shaking her beliefs since he simply didn't want what Muur offered. Her willpower for fighting what she believed in was entirely there. She was willing to fight to the death to defend the Talisman from getting into the wrong hands but only her will to Muur's machinations were waning. It's essentially kryptonite when viewed through those eyes, nobody else could exploit it in battle or outside. Her will against opponents was second to none and she was even willing to cede control to Muur willingly in order to defend the Talisman.

Going back to Muur vs Morne; him wearing her down doesn't mean he overpowered her either. He wasn't overpowering her will, he was looking for any chance to take control, any sort of drop in her guard. She however always had to be on guard to defend against him, and he simply didn't. He was willing to wait her out because he knew he couldn't win, hasn't won. While she might have been eroding, as seen through pretty much any interval she was winning. When we consider typical willpower battles only last seconds at most in Star Wars, a battle of 156 years is definitely an extended case. The only other one that comes near it is Revan vs Vitiate and that's pretty special in its own right.

She is not infinite - she can not fight a battle forever - but she can fight a willpower battle for 156 years while going about her daily life and still be winning on a minute-to-minute basis the entire time. The only reason she is alive is that she for some reason feels compelled to keep him check even though if she died she wouldn't have to deal with it. Muur, on the other hand, knows that it's just a matter of time even though he really wants her gone. Like water washing over the riverbed, eventually, it's going to leave its mark.

And the idea that always testing your willpower would actually lower your power seems faulty as well. She is literally always testing herself with internal strife. Her winning all the time would only reciprocate the belief she has in her own power. She views everyone else as weaker than her and unable to deal with her burden. I don't know about you, but being locked in a willpower battle for that long with the ability to refresh your physical body and still hone your abilities should actually seek to heighten your abilities if anything. Look at how much everyone grew during the Clone Wars when that was a time of absolute heartache and pain. That sort of loss only led to the Jedi getting stronger unless they completely broke and gave up. Mace Windu right before fighting Sheev was tired of the war and yet had the fight of his life because of it. Celeste went to war every day in her head and never fully broke. Every fight she had only threatened the only thing she had left in the world; to protect the Talisman from those who would abuse it. Why would she be weaker?

That same Celeste who sealed Muur away when younger only got more battle-tested and was still capable of sealing him away with more experience against those that would rob her of the Talisman. Nobody could take it away from her and she'd see it through to the death if she had to.

But all of this is beside the point anyway. Her own willpower is irrelevant when it was actually Karness Muur at times fighting Krayt. The fact that she was capable of fighting off two people with this "huge willpower deficient" while Muur was seemingly stalemating them doesn't speak of a huge decline in her actual powers. She was still capable of fighting off two people that Muur - who could entirely sidestep any willpower issues - was only comparable to with the full scope of her power and his. Once her willpower issues go away, then any theoretical block on her power goes away as well. From then on you have a body that has been privy to well over a century of battle and mental warfare and any sort of power that would build while retaining absolutely zero of the negatives that come with that body. Her willpower hindering her own power would only be an issue to her controlling her own body. She wouldn't have actually weakened her own body, she would have only locked her power away. She wasn't atrophying in skills and force use, only the theoretical loss of willpower would have hindered it. If you take her mind out of the equation then there are no willpower issues.

Karness Muur with the full range of his abilities and no setbacks from Morne's body was equal to Miladi and Krayt.
Morne was capable of staving off destruction from those same two people for an extended time.

That really doesn't speak to a drop in her own power and if anything implies the gap between Muurne with no negatives and Legacy Morne isn't multiple tiers, and thus makes it really hard to believe she'd be weaker in any way than Dark Times Celeste with none of Muur's power.

Spoiler:

BreakofDawn wrote:Second panel.

The problem here is that Hett EMERGED from those tombs thinking he acquired enough power to beat Sheev and Vader. The reason he left was to beat the two. Meaning he clearly didn't think he was below the two anymore if he ever did for Vader. Now that doesn't mean he did have the power to beat both, only that he didn't think he was inferior anymore... to either. Now if that doesn't confirm that his powers raised substantially, this will help:





To BreakitDown for you, Hett acquired a great deal of strength in the Force in preparation for overthrowing Vader/Sheev. Once he was done he emerged from the tombs seemingly ready to fight both. This is on top of his fight with Kenobi. This is on top of everything he did in the Clone Wars. Had he not felt confident in his own abilities, then he would have just kept in isolation and trained more. You're defeating your own point with this.

Then Krayt gives himself fully to the Dark Side and gets upgraded from the Vong. Then decades of growth and then a decline. We don't know exactly where he winds up, but it's fair to say his Dark Side training in its infancy has him putting himself above Vader. If you want to use that as the Gospel, then you should accept what he's actually stating.

Mind you, the one quote... that counts... that puts Muur above Krayt do imply that near-death Krayt is still above Wyyrlok who later on grew in power enough to challenge Krayt at his peak. The implication there is that Krayt even in his near-death state is still above every other Force user in the galaxy at the time - outside Muurne. The key point is this source never covers Krayt Reborn, only Legacy Vong Krayt.






So again, it's just very doubtful that anyone intended Krayt to uh... be weaker than Jedi Knight Celeste Morne just waking up after a 4000-year coma? Not really sure where you're going here.

BreakofDawn wrote:
Considering the amount of time Vader spent away from Sidious at this point (I can name about a dozen situations where he could have attacked Vader when Vader didn't have the protection of his fleets and stormtroopers), Hett had a pretty sizeable period of time in which he could have pursued and taken out Vader, if he were strong enough to do so. He did not, and instead took to learning from Xoxaan instead. It seems pretty indicative that he didn't believe himself strong enough to kill Vader.

How would Hett know about any of this? You have the advantage of mapping out his precise locations at precise times. He went to Tatooine, then lost an arm and had a short career as a Bounty Hunter masking his Jedi Skills. There's not a lot of time afforded to him to track Vader's exact movements when he was alone. And maybe he couldn't have beaten Vader before his fall to the Dark Side, but nothing in the quotes state that. Hiding away from the Empire does not mean you automatically concede to Vader's superiority... especially when Sheev is included in the quote.

But we'll circle around and look at this quote retroactively with everything you stated here:

BreakofDawn wrote:And since we're talking scaling, Vader > Celeste Morne, who was capable of holding off Vong Krayt for a fair bit of time to the point that her loss was described as if it would be a battle of attrition. Vader outright dominated her.

What you're stating here is that:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader > ANH Vader > TFU Vader > 18BBY Vader > 19BBY Vader > Celeste Morne > Celeste Morne < Vong Krayt > Hett > 18BBY-ish Hett

Essentially only Vader is allowed any growth in your scale while these two beings who are subject to entirely new worlds of power and new views of the Force and unfathomable time while enjoying a high starting point and enjoy (most) of their intact bodies... just sort of deteriorate? I'm not sure how you can rally for Vader's scaling and then act like these two wouldn't enjoy the same reason you can scale Vader like this? The only being who gets more powerful is the guy who actually has severe limitations? I know Vader has growth quotes, but we're setting aside our brains entirely to think that everyone just gets weaker to a point where they're scalable to Vader just because it's convenient. I know Krayt does actually encounter a severe setback, but he also had decades upon decades acquiring power beforehand. So much so that he's still considered the top Sith in the galaxy. But I digress.

More importantly, it's odd that you'd choose to use the Morne/Vader fight to try and pin Vader above a more powerful Hett. First off, having a 2 comic fight against Vader while just waking up out of a coma and even throwing him around isn't necessarily a bad feat. He won sure, but it wasn't as quick or as effortless as your wording implies. Second, that comic did everything it could to put Vader below Muur in power.

Spoiler:

Next, while you talk of conceding inferiority to Vader as definite proof - even though you misinterpreted it - Vader concedes to a handful of Rakghouls and runs away for fear of his life. Krayt fights a bunch off up close and then challenges Muurne.
*cough Taris Revan*

Spoiler:

If we even lighten the gap and afford you almost all your excuses here, we would still have Krayt fighting on par with a Vader level being with the addition of a girl who is strong enough to challenge Vader. We then run into the issue that Morne was capable of holding out against that Krayt and Miladi so... doesn't this speak of her growth? If we accept that Muur was intended to be anywhere near Vader level per you bringing that comic up, then we have to accept that Krayt, while near-death was capable of fighting Muur, merged with Morne. Which means that if Morne even did good against the bare minimum then it would speak of her power increase, no?

You argue she is actually weaker, but if Muur is more powerful than her, then this would make Krayt more than double her power. Since you argue Muur didn't change in power level, then Muur would stay around Vader's level while Morne gets weaker. Since you argue Vader dominated her but he's still intended to be sub-Muur, then this might even make Krayt 3 times more powerful than Morne. Since you argue Krayt had trouble with Morne still, then it really makes it questionable that she can possibly be weaker when she'd be having to hold off against a guy 2-3 times more powerful than her with Miladi at his side.

 

Needless to say, I'm really having trouble making sense of your conclusion. Alternately you could just accept that Morne at the time had no hardcap to her power besides being sub-Krayt, which fits with the lore.




I think you would have been better off speaking on unquantifiable Vader growth than trying to double down on her powers actually lowering as a result. In fact, I really don't think you should have tried to include Krayt at all seeing as it makes everything a lot messier than it needs to be. For you to be correct you have to assume that:

• Celeste got weakened to a point where additional power wouldn't have given her KOTOR Jedi Knight levels of strength
  
• Everyone of Krayt's stated growth led him to be comparable to a KOTOR Jedi Knight level of strength at the end
  
• That no Sith/Jedi in Legacy besides Krayt was above KOTOR Jedi Knight levels of strength
  
• That Celeste with the potential of being above the entirety of Legacy as a Young Jedi Knight didn't have the potential for growth
  
• That we accept the rather... questionable proof... that puts Vader above Hett no questions asked
  
• That we refuse to accept the more blunt statements that put Muur above Vader
  
• That Vong Krayt in a dying state was still more powerful than Hett with 2 decades of extensive Dark Side training on top of being comparable to Post-ROTS Kenobi
  
• That we ignore how well Celeste did against Krayt who did well against Muur/Morne
  

Basically you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get to your conclusion, or we can just accept you used rather faulty evidence instead and reached a non sequitur. I'm not saying everything I mentioned would give us a definite winner here, but everything I'm saying here would lead this specific thread to be unquantifiable based on your evidence. No matter what I think of Darth Krayt vs Celeste Morne, it still doesn't answer Hett vs Vader and that's the key thing you missed here. People are just saying your evidence is questionable, not that the evidence leads them to believe Hett wins.

You argue 19BBY!Vader > Vong Krayt and therefore he wins, but in reality, there are enough factors to make it hard to compare to primes/pre-primes/post-primes and figure out where everything fits in. It's more complicated than you make it out to be. It's not proper scaling, and the dots you try to connect simply don't exist. This is only highlighted by you defending Vader; who as we know is filled entirely with excuses of how much his power grew, yet the same luxuries aren't afforded to his competition.

That being said, I think the Morne comparison hurts Vader more than it helps in this thread. Krayt fights her at the height of her power and has an excuse that he was dying. Vader fought her when she was a mere Knight with unquantified growth to erase it. At the very least it doesn't help.

---

I'd like to thank @DC77 (Reborn) for starting a debate he clearly wasn't equipped to handle and then excused himself because of important Christmas homework for Santa Claus.

Thanks for your time, happy holidays.

As fascinating as this is, it's way longer than it really needs to be. No idea why you think I’d respond to a post twice the length of my coursework word count.

@Quorian Debatist First, I'm sorry for taking a ridiculously long time to reply to this. Second, like you I'm going to respond to this into multiple parts.




If I am understanding you right, your argument boils down to the idea that Celeste Morne, after fighting Vader, had 156 years to grow. You also argue that she had time to learn how to use the talisman and how to harness it (and thus, Muur’s) power. I’m going to argue that this is not the case. 


First, you point to the idea of Morne’s potential, and how 156 years of growth would have logically boosted her power dramatically. However, there are two flaws with this idea:

1. Celeste’s Morne’s time in the Oubliette


You point to Celeste’s 156 years of growth as credible logic for her growing more powerful, and this is a fair conclusion to draw from this. However, you have not taken into account that when Celeste Morne faced Vader, she’d spent four thousand years within a stasis field constructed by Remulus Dreypa, one that was specifically designed to imprison Karness Muur and the powers of the talisman. It would separate the being from the outside world, while simultaneously keeping them completely conscious of their imprisonment:



Even more keen is that Celeste Morne was completely conscious the entire time, having nothing to do but (logically) meditate and block out Muur’s mental influence:





Now, you might be asking yourself: why is this important? As we have seen throughout SW continuity, beings that are imprisoned, put in stasis or restrained in any other way are able to grow as individuals and in their power. I don’t expect you to take this without evidence, so I’ll raise the first example.


Example 1: Master Wyellett.


After being imprisoned in ice for decades, Master Wyellett claimed to have grown considerably in power:


“All these many years, entombed in this rubble, I have fed off the Force and have great insights to impart.”


-


“In truth, I was the same until being buried on Hoth. Here, I communed with the Force to the exclusion of all else. 


-


The Force is with me, greater than ever now. I suspect that I could defeat you quite handily. 




This power growth was considerable. Master Wyellett went from being a peer of pre-Sel Makor Baras (fighting him in an extended fight with the help of his padawan, Xerender), to going toe to toe with and almost stalemating end of act 2 EW, who can be argued to have only won due to their youth and thus greater endurance. As we can see here, Wyellett, despite only meditating for decades, underwent huge amounts of growth after being forced to focus only on himself and his spiritual and personal growth. 


Example 2: Revan. 


Though I don’t like using Revan because I’m terrified I’m going to get something wrong and be crucified for it, he is a prime - and perhaps, the most apt - example of a being undergoing power growth, especially in light of the fact that his imprisonment was very similar to that of Morne’s:


REVAN’S CELL WAS AS MUCH LABORATORY AS PRISON. 


Trapped in a suspended cage of shimmering power, he hovered somewhere between life and death. His paralyzed body was in some kind of stasis, preserved and protected so that even time itself could not touch him. But his consciousness was fully aware. Meetra could sense his suffering. When she had died, she had not become one with the Force. Loyal to the end, her spirit had remained with Revan, an invisible presence hovering just outside his cell. She couldn’t speak with him; whatever arcane Sith sorcery the Emperor had used to bind Revan in his cell made that impossible. She doubted Revan was even aware she was there. Yet even though she couldn’t communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment.
 
-


Whenever his thoughts turned to his wife and son, he tried to reach out to them through the Force, offering comfort and strength from the other side of the galaxy. He didn’t know if they ever felt him, but he liked to imagine that they did.


Much like Celeste Morne, Revan was imprisoned using Sith alchemy in a stasis field that protected his body from the passage of time while also stopping Force users or sensors from detecting him. During this period, Revan had two goals: protect his secrets from Vitiate, and mentally influence Vitiate into a course of action that benefited the Republic:


And Revan knew something the Emperor did not. The connection between them went both ways. There were brief moments—times when the Emperor was intently focused on something else—when he could subvert their relationship by planting seeds in the Emperor’s thoughts. He had to be careful, lest his enemy discover what he was doing. But he was able to push and nudge the Emperor’s own thoughts and beliefs, subtly manipulating them in ways that could have profound effects. Revan played on the Emperor’s caution and patience, constantly pushing them to the forefront of his enemy’s mind. He augmented his irrational fear of death. At every opportunity he reinforced the idea that invading the Republic was reckless and dangerous.


-


Revan was certain of one thing, though: for however many centuries his body survived in stasis, he would fight to stop the Emperor from invading the Republic.


First, I’m going to address the difference between the two. While it is true that Revan was also being fed upon by Vitiate during this, it’s important to note that he was also being constantly refreshed for 300 years:


As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war. Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.



It was Meetra’s strength that allowed him to continue fighting. By the time of SWTOR, his strength had begun to drain as his will weakened. 


What’s important here is that even as Revan was drained, he was also renewed. Now, I’d rather not go too in-depth as I don’t know too much about Revan’s time in captivity or the case or his growth, but we know that SoR Revan > his former selves, and while his “death” and rebirth would certainly have helped, there has to be more to it. In this case, Revan’s lengthy time in captivity, where he was forced to channel his power and go deeper than ever before would most likely have a similar effect to Wyllett, where he’s forced to commune with the Force and draw upon reserves he didn’t know he had or which over time became available to him, enabling him to grow during this period. 


However, the difference between Revan and Morne is that not only was Morne imprisoned for far longer (four thousand years to Revan’s three hundred), but she also didn’t have the negative effect of Vitiate draining her knowledge and power to slow this growth, nor was Muur actively trying to take control due to their captivity. Now of course I’m not saying that Morne > any version of Revan, nor am I saying Morne’s growth was necessarily > Revan’s. However, she did have the advantage of far more time to grow and evolve both physically and spiritually, and considering the growth we’ve seen in beings who’ve entered meditative trances for as little as decades (in Master Wyllett’s case) to centuries (in Revan’s case), this Morne would be immensely more powerful than her TOR self. 


If necessary, I’ll provide more examples, but I think I’ve made this part of my point clear for now. Morne had four thousand years of power growth on her already formidable TOR era self. Not only that, but she also had the company of Karness Muur, who could tell her more and more about the amulet. Any growth in the 162 years after this would be fairly miniscule by comparison.





First, I want to say that I made some very stupid comparisons and arguments in this section. However, I do want to examine your discussion of the link between Celeste’s willpower and her raw strength in the Force. 


To begin, I want to examine your point about Muur fighting Krayt throughout the fight, and how it would have meant Morne was fighting a two-front war. Respectfully, I disagree. Morne only takes control at a key part in the fight, which was to command the rakghouls to do his bidding (and slaughter Cade and the others, which Morne would never have allowed).



Muur wasn’t intentionally fighting Krayt. He took over to command the rakghouls to dispatch the others to avoid any distractions or loose ends, but had to do so in the middle of Morne’s fight with Krayt. 


As we see throughout, any effort by Morne to take back control throughout the duel (and even before this) is done with huge amounts of effort on her part:

















Muur had no intention of fighting Krayt. He cooperated to lure Krayt into a trap to take over his body and to have Morne killed, not to fight him. The only time he takes control is in order to order the rakghouls to kill Cade and co, which he does as Krayt attacks him. 


Now, why do I keep emphasising this? Well for one, Muur quickly stops trying to take control of her body, despite proving that he can:






You can and somewhat have argued that the reason for this is that Morne’s defences were lowered, but this isn’t the case. Muur wants Krayt to kill Morne and accept him rather than fight him. To do that, he needs to neutralise anyone who might jeopardise his plan (Cade and the others) and make Krayt view him as an ally, not an enemy. To do that, he stops taking control of Morne so Krayt will kill her and accept him to cure himself. This is also supported by Krayt’s words to Morne:





And Muur’s own words throughout the duel:








Krayt can’t risk killing Muur: Karness is his one chance to save himself. However, he does want Morne dead so he can take the talisman for himself. Muur only wants to goad Krayt into killing Morne, not to fight him. He only tries to take control twice: when angered by the Imperial Knights, and when he intends to kill Krayt. Both times, he does this fairly easily. 


Now, moving on I want to discuss Morne’s power growth over that 156 years and how it links into her willpower. Aside from the lack of evidence for her power growth, there’s also the issue that, much like Revan and Vitiate, constantly fighting to keep Muur at bay would drain and weaken her, as it would require her raw power as well as her willpower to fight his attempts to take over her body. Revan went through something very similar after 300 years of Vitiate trying to drain him of knowledge, even with Meetra’s help:


“The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for for three hundred years. His strength will fail. Then, he will become the darkness.”


“How did you find me?”
“Your strength fails. You must be free, or all is lost.”


In both Revan and Morne’s cases, their willpower is closely linked to their raw power in the Force. Both hold the Emperor and Muur back, respectively:


As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war. Because of her, Revan was able to do more than just fight to keep the Emperor at bay.



Both cases are very similar:

• Two Force users imprisoned by the will of a powerful Force user.
  
• Both hold these darksiders at bay, refusing to (in Revan’s case) give it knowledge, or (in Morne’s case) let it take control.
  
• Both hold them off for centuries (Morne when Muur actively seeks control for 156 years, and Revan the Emperor for 300 years with Meetra’s help). 
  
• However, both of them find that their willpower and raw power fades over time. As we see with Revan, this mental (and indirectly, Force) battle drained him, with Foundry Revan for example being beaten by either a single act 2 protagonist, or by a team of them (who are still leagues below the likes of FE Malgus). 
  

In both situations, their power and willpower are closely linked. However, while Revan had the help of Meetra, Morne’s strength and will was already fading by her appearance in Legacy:












Morne’s power and will to fight had been fading for 156 years. Constantly fighting Muur for a century and a half would have weakened her considerably. By the time she fought Krayt, her abilities had become so diminished that Muur could easily take control whenever he wanted, and it took Morne immense concentration and focus just to temporarily take control again:










As such, Morne’s power growth over 156 years, if there was any, was drastically depleted in a similar way to that of Revan’s. Like him, the strain it took to actively contain a Muur trying to take control over the 156 years before Legacy would have weakened her considerably, leading to her fight with Krayt and gradually losing (more on that in the next section).




As I have hopefully proved above, the version of Morne that Krayt fought was weakened after 156 years of actively fighting Muur’s influence and dark side corruption. However, the version of Morne that Vader fights is fresh out of 4,000 years of meditation and growth:





The nature of the oubliette also perfectly preserved the victim’s body, so Morne was in peak fighting condition when she exited the oubliette.


On top of that, a bloodlusted and enraged Morne was drawing upon the dark side throughout her duel with Vader despite refusing to fully give into it, only drawing upon it like other Force users such as Luke:















Even more key is that Morne needed Vader dead. She couldn’t risk him taking the talisman and using it to unleash Muur on the entire galaxy:









However, despite being in peak fighting condition, fresh out of 4,000 years of meditation within stasis, and drawing upon the dark side as a result of her bloodlust, Morne is not only easily overpowered and disarmed by a holding back Vader:








...but also outright admits inferiority, a claim supported by Vader and Muur:












It takes Muur drawing upon the full power of the talisman to drive Vader away, an act that enrages Muur, who had no idea she could do that:








Even here, the reason for Vader’s retreat is important. Vader at this point has realised that Morne will never submit to him:





If Vader stayed, he’d be facing over a dozen Clones turned into rakghouls who could infect him with a scratch or bite:





Who could also use weapons:





But on top of this, he’d also be facing Morne amped by Muur’s full power. Again, this is Vader months before his massive growth upon killing Roan Shryne, yet even here he can utterly dominate Morne in a fight: stomp her, even. 


You pointed to Krayt’s dispatching of half a dozen or so rakghouls as an example of a flaw in this argument, but I’m not sure you’ve taken into account their respective mentalities and motives here. Vader wanted an apprentice to help him overthrow Sidious. However, he soon realised that Morne would never submit and become his apprentice, and when she drew upon Muur’s full power (something I’m not sure she’d be able to replicate again to the same extent, considering that Muur was clearly taken by surprise) and also turned his dozen+ troopers into heavily armed rakghouls who could infect him with a scratch or bite, he realised his plan had failed and chose to retreat rather than fight a disadvantageous duel where he was outnumbered and facing the combined strength of a 4,000 year old Jedi and an ancient Sith lord.


By contrast, Krayt had nothing left to lose. He needed the talisman to save himself. Whether he was infected by the rakghoul plague or not, Krayt was desperate and needed Muur to save him. At this point, he wants Morne dead simply to save himself, meaning that he’d be operating with tunnel vision and a determination to do whatever it takes to accomplish his goal. The rakghouls would only enrage him, not make him cautious. At this point, he didn’t care if they infected him or not because he already knows the Vong seeds will kill him anyway. Unlike Vader, he had no other choice but to keep fighting, otherwise he’d suffer a far more horrible and painful death at the hands of his implants. Vader’s retreat and an enraged Krayt’s dispatching of the rakghouls attacking him are therefore not really comparable. 


Interestingly, Morne makes no attempt to use the Force offensively against Vader, despite Muur being able to accomplish feats like reducing powerful Imperial Knights like Azlyn Rae to charred husks, one-shotting Antares (one of the top Imperial Knights), leaving a wounded Krayt on the brink of death and defenceless before his lightning blasts, sending Imperial Knights, Shado Vao, and Darth Maladi flying simply with the kinetic shockwave of her lightning attack on Krayt and Azlyn, and so on. 


Now, let’s look at the fight with Krayt. First, Morne does incredibly well against him, with her loss being a gradual one despite being weakened by 156 years of constant mental and Force infighting:





What’s key here is that Morne wasn’t drawing on Muur's power until later in the duel:




So Morne, weakened by 156 years of constant mental warfare that could reduce even beings like Revan into a shadow of their former self (at least temporarily, before his rebirth and renewed mental focus) was able to go toe to toe with Krayt - who was determined to kill her to take the Muur talisman for himself - without Muur’s power, fighting him evenly and only losing “in time”. By contrast, an enraged Morne after 4,000 years of growth and in peak physical form (having just come from fighting a war and having been perfectly preserved by the oubliette) was being stomped by a vastly pre-prime, holding Vader, landing a single blow on him with a push at the very start before being dominated in the Force and then easily disarmed in sabers. The same Morne was then able to go toe to toe with Krayt in sabers, so at the very least 19 BBY Vader is a better swordsman than Krayt (who fought a weakened Morne who had no one to fight against or train with for 156 years), and is most likely more powerful in the Force.




1. Morne had 4,000 years of growth in similar conditions to the likes of Revan and Master Wyllett, who were able to use their imprisonment to undergo personal and spiritual growth that skyrocketed their power.




2. Morne was forced to actively fight Morne for 156 years in a similar confrontation to that of beings like Revan; a confrontation that could reduce considerably more powerful beings like Revan Reborn into a fraction of their former power levels (Foundry Revan). While Morne was not fighting this war of attrition for as long, she was undeniably mentally drained and weakening by Legacy.




3. An immensely pre-prime, holding back Vader who’d yet to undergo his huge growth from killing Roan Shryne was able to utterly dominate Morne when she was bloodlusted, fresh out of 4,000 years of growth and determined to stop him from taking control of the talisman. 




4. Morne had to tap into the full power of the talisman to even drive Vader away, and even then she had to rely on numbers and her huge amp to accomplish even that. By contrast, a weaker Morne was able to go toe to toe with Krayt, and would have lost in what would have been a war of attrition. 




5. Vader’s retreat in the face of overwhelming odds and the combined power of two millennia old beings and an enraged and desperate Krayt’s dispatching of the rakghouls attacking him with lightning are not comparable. One had other options, the other did not.




6. If an enraged Morne in her mental and spiritual/Force prime was dominated by Vader whereas a weaker version of the same character was able to fight and hold her own against Krayt for a considerable amount of time in a war of attrition, it stands to reason that 19 BBY Vader was considerably stronger than this version of Krayt.





Hope you don’t mind that I haven’t replied to the Krayt tomb argument. It was a stupid point that I raised and it made little to no sense.

You're courting my wrath with this 19BBY Vader > Krayt shit, BoD.

kek, hett wins mid-diff.

@ILS Vong Krayt specifically from when he fought Morne, not Krayt overall, lol. Reborn Krayt would fodderise 19 BBY Vader, and even normal Vong Krayt could beat 19 BBY Vader.

yeah, vong krayt at the start >(>) that vader for sure. he is prolly a match for healthy (u know what i mean) vong krayt by TFU 1 or so.

Fighting Morne came after killing Shyne and Vaders boost because of it. Morne wasn't conscious in stasis. 

Actually reading DL TRDV and Vector would tell you this.

Vader holds up one hand and the rest is history

Greysentinel365 wrote:Fighting Morne came after killing Shyne and Vaders boost because of it. Morne wasn't conscious in stasis. 

Actually reading DL TRDV and Vector would tell you this.

where did u get that from?

Greysentinel365 wrote:Fighting Morne came after killing Shyne and Vaders boost because of it. Morne wasn't conscious in stasis. 

Actually reading DL TRDV and Vector would tell you this.

Vector is approximately 3 months after ROTS. Shryne's death was about halfway through 19 BBY, though the actual timeframe itself is unclear. You might be right about this, but again it's unclear.

As for Morne, she was quite clearly conscious in stasis since she remembers Muur talking to her and that the two conversed. The oubliette is also specifically designed to keep the victim fully conscious of what's happening and the passage of time.

Please reread the material before you try to patronise me. It's kind of irritating.

it happened after. a good bit after, iirc. more or less at the end of 19 BBY, i believe.

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

Greysentinel365 wrote:Fighting Morne came after killing Shyne and Vaders boost because of it. Morne wasn't conscious in stasis. 

Actually reading DL TRDV and Vector would tell you this.

where did u get that from?

It could be the fact it's stated in the damn novel. Sidious talk with Vader "weeks ago" when Vader is heading to Kashyykk to kill Shryne

He sat in the passenger hold's forward row of seats, his cadre of stormtroopers behind him, and his thoughts focused on what awaited him on Kashyyyk, rather than on the imminent meeting, which he suspected was little more than a formality.
 
His last conversation with Sidious, weeks earlier but as if only yesterday



- Dark Lord: The Rise of Dark Vader

The encounter with Morne takes place 3 months after RotS. Vader kills Shryne at best with highballing after 2. So yeah Vader vs Celete is post boost for him.

When she emerges her first question is if they had removed Muur. If they had been locked in a mental battle for millennia she would have been aware when she woke up. There wouldn't have been a break in her consciousness. The phrase

"With only the voice of Muur to keep me company"

Is referring to being sealed with Muur. Not that they were conscious. This is made clear by Muur, who rather than remarking "finally!" or anything else, refers to wasted time. All the other instances BoD cited are poor to say the least.

Celeste is never stated to have meditated or even to have fought Muur during stasis. The most that's ever implied is that she had nightmares. AKA dreams, she wasn't conscious.

Moreover it's made a point while fighting Vader that she was consumed by despair and anger, yet wouldn't use the dark side. A state of mind which has always resulted in LS user being significantly hindered. 

Honestly the Celeste fight might be one of Vader's poorest feats. I have no idea why BoD is trying to draw attention to it.

This is A'Sharad Hett, not Darth Krayt. Both versions of Darth Vader win decisively.

so u dont have dates? ok, i thought so. cuz see, i looked it up, and conveniently enough, his page says that he died in 18 BBY, while the 19 BBY page has his death in it as well. 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Battle_of_Kashyyyk_(19_BBY)

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Roan_Shryne

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Legends_comics

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline_of_Legends_books

i posted some other stuff for yall to look at, if u want to.

@lorenzo.r.2nd You can't use wookie as a source in a debate lmao.

Corvinus wrote:This is A'Sharad Hett, not Darth Krayt. Both versions of Darth Vader win decisively.

Based on what, kek? Hett puts up a great fight against Obi Wan, who's >> Vader.

IG (Exists) wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd You can't use wookie as a source in a debate lmao.

i can and i will lol

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:@lorenzo.r.2nd You can't use wookie as a source in a debate lmao.

i can and i will lol

I mean that it's an invalid source. It's like conceding.

they go by the books and comics as sources, but are not reliable? they are more reliable than having 20 different statements that somehow contradict each other every so often

I mean the novel itself says that only a few weeks passed. The actual novel trumps whatever someone on Wookiepeedia makes up. If a year passes it should be easy to find it in the novel. Except it’s not there. 

The offical readers companion places the start of the book at 4 weeks post RotS and only a few weeks pass before the end where Vader kills Shryne. 

Feel free to find the year in there.