Darth Vader vs A'Sharad Hett

@Quorian Debatist Ok

Didn’t this guy lose to post prime Obi Wan?

Wasn't Vader stalemated by an even more post prime Obi-Wan?

Wasn't a mentally hindered Vader holding the upper hand against an even more post prime Obi-Wan? 

FTFY.

There's no evidence Vader was hindered, and OOU sources clarify you're wrong about the latter point:

Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.

Mysteries Of The Jedi wrote:Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.

I'm sure you're aware of them but here's a couple for reference.

That was pre prime Vader who was playing it safe because he didn’t want to be turned into a burnt up husk just like the last time they fought. Despite that Vader seemed to get the upper hand on him with Kenobi basically realizing he can’t beat him right before Kenobi allowed himself to be struck down.

@AlakanSpacewalker:

That was pre prime Vader

I'm not convinced that the relatively short timeframe in which Vader grew from ANH to ROTJ is enough to suggest he has a shot against Hett, who was giving Kenobi only a short while following ROTS a great fight, especially given the 20 years Kenobi spent in constant decline.

who was playing it safe because he didn’t want to be turned into a burnt up husk just like the last time they fought.

Vader being slightly cautious (With good reason I might add) doesn't necessitate that he underperformed, if anything it probably assisted him in not leaving openings for Kenobi to capitalise on.

Despite that Vader seemed to get the upper hand on him with Kenobi basically realizing he can’t beat him right before Kenobi allowed himself to be struck down.

Vader was matched by him, as per the sources posted above. Your head canon notwithstanding, it's blatantly clear the two were portrayed as equals during the duel. Kenobi voluntarily yields so the rebels can escape, and because he has no way of winning against Vader+the numerous imperial troops on board the Death Star, not because Vader alone is capable of surpassing his former master in blade to blade combat.

“ I'm not convinced that the relatively short timeframe in which Vader grew from ANH to ROTJ is enough to suggest he has a shot against Hett, who was giving Kenobi only a short while following ROTS a great fight, especially given the 20 years Kenobi spent in constant decline”

4 whole years is not a short amount of time. Tell me who you were 4 years ago! 


“ Vader was matched by him, as per the sources posted above Your head canon notwithstanding, it's blatantly clear the two were portrayed as equals during the duel. Kenobi voluntarily yields so the rebels can escape, and because he has no way of winning against Vader+the numerous imperial troops on board the Death Star, not because Vader alone is capable of surpassing his former master in blade to blade combat” 


Well the movie showed something a little different. The movie showed us Vader blocking attacks and leading the fight to a location of HIS choosing, you can’t just quote misleading sources that contradict how the movie plays out my friend. If Kenobi thought he had no chance in fighting freaking stormtroopers then a burnt limbless Anakin could beat this Kenobi (this last part is a joke bty). There hindered Vader was superior to Kenobi; if he wasn’t then why was he able to lead the fight to a location of his choosing?

@AlakanSpacewalker:

4 whole years is not a short amount of time. Tell me who you were 4 years ago!

Why don't you do me a favour and tell me who you were 20 years ago? I'm asuming you can do maths, in which case you'll be able to notice that 4 years is nothing more than 1/5 of 20. So, Vader has a 1/5 as much time to grow as Kenobi does to decline, roughly. Feel free to find the mega growth that puts him with Hett and ROTS Kenobi in there.

Well the movie showed something a little different. The movie showed us Vader blocking attacks and leading the fight to a location of HIS choosing, you can’t just quote misleading sources that contradict how the movie plays out my friend.

Your subjective interpretation of the source material doesn't outweigh objective OOU sources that are canon to Legends continuity (Spoiler: Your head canon isn't).

If Kenobi thought he had no chance in fighting freaking stormtroopers then a burnt limbless Anakin could beat this Kenobi (this last part is a joke bty).

Did you read my post? I implicitly noted it's Vader and the troopers that can beat Kenobi (Not the fodder alone). Consider: if Vader and Kenobi are equals it follows that the inclusion of a bunch of faceless minions, however small their significance, is an added variable perfectly capable of shifting the outcome of the duel.

There hindered Vader was superior to Kenobi; if he wasn’t then why was he able to lead the fight to a location of his choosing?

Still not seeing proof Vader was hindered. Did you pull this one out of the hat like the last hinderance you invented? Vader fanboys really don't learn, do they?

There's no evidence Vader was hindered, and OOU sources clarify you're wrong about the latter point:

I can pull up half a dozen quotes (at least) where Vader is constantly stuck thinking about Mustafar and it nervous about going on the offensive in case it happens again.

Adressed in my debate with AS.

BoD wrote:

There's no evidence Vader was hindered, and OOU sources clarify you're wrong about the latter point:

I can pull up half a dozen quotes (at least) where Vader is constantly stuck thinking about Mustafar and it nervous about going on the offensive in case it happens again.

literally vader in his head was experiencing normandia,vietnam and the cold war when he was thinking about that

@TheLordOfHunger: just read the Dark Lord the Rise of Vader or the canon comics for proof that he consistently thinks about Mustufar

AlakanSpacewalker wrote:@TheLordOfHunger: just read the Dark Lord the Rise of Vader or the canon comics for proof that he consistently thinks about Mustufari 

i already did it good novels luceno is practically my god

TFA Vader loses

ROTJ Vader stomps unless he is being hindered by feelings for his son.

“ Why don't you do me a favour and tell me who you were 20 years ago? I'm asuming you can do maths, in which case you'll be able to notice that 4 years is nothing more than 1/5 of 20. So, Vader has a 1/5 as much time to grow as Kenobi does to decline, roughly. Feel free to find the mega growth that puts him with Hett and ROTS Kenobi in there”


Couldn’t Anakin go from being fodder to Dooku to bodying him in the span of three years? Couldn’t Luke go from being nothing to Vader to being a match for him in the span of a single year? If so then Vader can also go from already being equal to Kenobi while hindered to being vastly superior to him in the span of four years which is quite a long time. “Who was I 20 years prior” not even born so why do you ask? I would debunk your crap but I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said.

@AlakanSpacewalker:

Couldn’t Anakin go from being fodder to Dooku to bodying him in the span of three years? Couldn’t Luke go from being nothing to Vader to being a match for him in the span of a single year? If so then Vader can also go from already being equal to Kenobi while hindered to being vastly superior to him in the span of four years which is quite a long time. “Who was I 20 years prior” not even born so why do you ask?

Your post is based on a strawman, that being that I don't think Vader increased massively. He did, but that's not enough to circumvent the 20 year decline between ANH and ROTS Kenobi, which is the core of my argument, rendering this post nothing but a bunch of empty characters taking up my screen. Vader being "hindered" and superior has been addressed thoroughly across the course of this stomp in my favour debate as well, and as a result, you have nothing left to stand on.

I would debunk your crap but I don’t have much to say that hasn’t already been said.

As for this cute little point, you couldn't outdebate the dirt on my boots, let alone me, as this debate has demonstrated.

I felt a great disturbance in the Force as if someone’s arrogance has suddenly shown its true colors and is waiting to get the Mustifar Anakin treatment.

Okay joking aside. Have you ever proven Vader wasn’t hindered because he was afraid of being burnt a second time? Read the canon Vader comics or Dark Lord the Rise of Vader. Because if you have read them then you’ll know Vader always thinks about losing to the high ground in RotS. So why wouldn’t he play it safe against Kenobi? For all he knew Kenobi could have been super OPed. Read the Death Star novel my friend. Luke was still nothing to Vader and you’ve openly said without the Dark amp he was his equal and that was only with one year. Obi Wan (THE LEAST NATURALLY ATUNED WITH THE FORCE mind you) was complete fodder to Dooku but in the RotS novels, he scares the heck out of Dooku during there clash on the Shadow’s Hand forcing Dooku to use the Force to throw him. If Obi Wan can become that powerful in the span of three years then how powerful could Darth Vader become in four years? Anakin was clearly the superior between him and Dooku before he used the Dark Side meaning he’ll still with regardless of using it or not. You can think Vader didn’t get much stronger but it’s factual and it makes sense because in TFA1 Starkiller out fences and basically overpowers Vader but in TFA2 a clone of Galen who might be more powerful than the original host was unable to do the same to Vader because he had improved. And that was after only one year now imagine FOUR! Also you’re implying Vader was Improving a constant rate, no he was improving much quicker at some points than others which should be obvious based on his feats across the timeline.

Dooku throwing Kenobi with the help of Palpatine. Is not a fan theory, it’s literally implied in the movie that he helps him; if he wasn’t then why was the camera constantly looking back at Palpatine despite the fact that he supposedly wasn’t doing anything? And why was Palpatine making a gesture with his face? https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw 1:44 mark and 1:28 mark. Besides even if Dooku did it on his own power doesn't me and he can do the same to Vader because Vader never tried the Force on Kenobi wheras Dooku admitted he couldn’t beat Kenobi in the RotS novel before abusing the Force on him. Imagine if Vader tried to use the Force on old Kenobi rather than taking him in a sword fight? Saying Dooku is superior to Vader because of this would be like saying I’m a better fighter then you if I used a gun to shoot a brawler who stalemated you or in Dooku and Vader’s case used the Force on someone they couldn’t outperform while Vader proved superior to him in a sword fight without requiring the Force. This actually proves Vader is > Dooku.

If they were equal than why was Vader able to guide the to the hanger? https://youtu.be/sq51w34Hg9I 1:30 mark. Explain how that happened if they were equals?

And you said “I was on Vader’s ****” but first of all wasn’t that thing burnt off after Mustifar? And two while I like Vader, I usually try to be unbiased and defend basically any character from lowballers like thyself.

Now may you prove your facts without misleading sources? Or prove that they’re not misleading?

As for this cute little point, you couldn't outdebate the dirt on my boots, let alone me, as this debate has demonstrated.

Now time to debunk the myth that Old Ben is = to Vader because a misleading source said so:

Life and Legend of Kenobi: “Obi Wan stood in and offensive position and insulted him hoping to catch Vader off guard” Kenobi (a defensive fighter) used offensive attacks and insults to catch Vader off guard and hoped to beat him (Kenobi ain’t holding back at all, in fact he tries to catch Vader off guard and still is unable to overpower him).

Rise and Fall of Vader: “he looks so old, Vader thought, but knew he better not assume Kenobi had weakened with age as Vader moved slowly toward him” (Vader is being cautious because he is afraid Kenobi could turn him into a burnt up husk again) “Vader expected Obi-Wan to address him by his name Anakin rather than his Sith title alone. “He’s trying good confuse me” (Vader is still being cautious). Obi Wan moves fast, lunged his weapon at Vader but the Dark Lord blocked all of them with ease” (Vader keeps up with not holding back Kenobi while he himself was holding back with “EASE”)

Death Star: “if the old man thought he could rattle him by attacking rather than defending he was mistaken. Vader just sped up his timing and took the initiative forcing the old Jedi to defend. (Vader was in control of the fight from here on out). There has always been in Vader a small bit of worry. Not much; just a trace. (Vader is cautious). Vader backed Obi Wan past an Open blast door leading to the forward dock where the rebel freighter was being held under guard. (Vader was now in complete control of the fight). The old man was obviously tiring (Kenobi was tiring meaning he couldn’t keep the fight up for much longer ergo not on Vader’s level).


To recap: Kenobi (who was going all out) tried to throw Vader off guard which failed, Vader (who was holding back because of how cautious he was) was basically controlling the entire fight even leading it to a location of his choosing while Kenobi tired out, in a last ditch effort Kenobi used all of his remaining strength to attack Vader quickly but Vader easily blocked everything, Kenobi threw the fight knowing he couldn’t win but at the same time he gave the heroes enough time to escape and distracted Vader. Pre prime Vader >>> Kenobi as a swordsman. And stormtroopers still shouldn’t be a threat to Kenobi who could just jump back and give them all a casual Force push to knock them all out, remember in the novels I’ve just quoted it’s said Kenobi still had a lot of skill and was only slightly out of practice. Kenobi threw the fight again so the Rebels could escape and because he knew he couldn’t beat Vader. After this I’m not sure if you’ve even watched ANH or read the tie ins. You can’t accuse me of using headcanon when all you do is quote misleading sources. Here’s an accurate source "This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge."
> Jedi Battles.

Oh, and the ANH novel says that Vader defeated Kenobi, the novel says nothing about Kenobi throwing the fight. So that’s one thing to consider

Those sources say Kenobi was a match for Vader but that doesn’t make him equal to Vader. If not, then yield, I have five sources whole you only have two that I’ve debunked.


You know what? I take it back ANH Vader also beat overrated Hett because Hett was casually defeated by Obi Wan while Vader proved superior to a slightly weaker Kenobi who was actually much stronger in the Force and Vader did all this half a decade before his prime.

________________

Still think I can’t even debate the gum on your shoe?!?! If anything this debate reminds me of the Anakin and Obi Wan fight on Mustifar with me being Obi Wan and you being Anakin as in you had the advantage for most of it and your arrogance and ego grew with each passing second but then I managed to win in the end.

Okay, I change my opinion, Vader wins round 1 with low to mid difficulty and godstomps round 2 with no difficulty.

Imagine being so salty (like @DC) just because you’ve been debunked by the person you arrogantly thought yourself to be far above to a point where you’re not even replying because you know you’ll lose. Anyone who actually thinks old Ben can beat Vader or is even close to his level is either trolling or suffers from mental illnesses (like you do).

@AlakanSpacewalker:

Ok, first off, you do realise that you can't post if you're banned right? That's kinda the whole point of a ban in the first place. I didn't avoid responding. The ban literally prevented me from doing so. But more importantly, everything you said is just a repeated version of claims addressed here, and I have no interest in reiterating the same responses. If you have an argument, post it there.