Re: Revan versus Darth Sion

November 26th 2019, 7:14 pm

Zenwolf wrote:Where you seeing multiple times Sion was killed? The quote only suggests at best once, before that it seems it just seemed like he was racking up injuries until one day he was struck down. In fact, it's noted that he struck down multiple Jedi.

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.

Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

November 26th 2019, 7:16 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

LadyKulvax wrote:Sion is an 'ultra-powerful Sith Lord', 'feared lightsaber assassin' who could one-shot mid-game Surik and defeat Lonna Vash who scales from SF!Bastila. He's also above Visas Marr who is stated to be able to butcher a small army of Sith with Force lightning and defeated three massively-amped Sith Lords in the tomb of Freedon Nadd.

Did I mention he just walks off a Force wave from an enraged Darth Nihilus which buckled bridge supports and disintegrated Sith at the same time?

You seem to be determined to portray him as trash when GSW!Sion and Darth Sion are decades apart from each other.

You really need to chill. It was a joke.

I wasn't replying to you.

November 26th 2019, 7:57 pm

darthbane77 wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:Where you seeing multiple times Sion was killed? The quote only suggests at best once, before that it seems it just seemed like he was racking up injuries until one day he was struck down. In fact, it's noted that he struck down multiple Jedi.

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

That quote also says he struck down more lives than he was dying, so it's not like he isn't above your standard Jedi Knight. Given however he has immortality, he probably just got sloppy a few times and was "killed". But I don't see how that makes him a trash combatant, perhaps since he knew he could come back, he didn't bother with trying to defend himself as much and instead focused more on attack.

If one can ignore pain or just come back from the dead, your defense is gonna suffer since...why would you bother if such injuries won't affect you in the long term?

So his defense is bad, since he doesn't seem to care much for it, but I don't think that overall makes him a terrible combatant with the power he has already.

November 26th 2019, 8:05 pm

Zenwolf wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:Where you seeing multiple times Sion was killed? The quote only suggests at best once, before that it seems it just seemed like he was racking up injuries until one day he was struck down. In fact, it's noted that he struck down multiple Jedi.

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

That quote also says he struck down more lives than he was dying, so it's not like he isn't above your standard Jedi Knight. Given however he has immortality, he probably just got sloppy a few times and was "killed". But I don't see how that makes him a trash combatant, perhaps since he knew he could come back, he didn't bother with trying to defend himself as much and instead focused more on attack.

If one can ignore pain or just come back from the dead, your defense is gonna suffer since...why would you bother if such injuries won't affect you in the long term?

So his defense is bad, since he doesn't seem to care much for it, but I don't think that overall makes him a terrible combatant with the power he has already.

That's pretty much all conjecture. Nothing indicates he was sloppy or didn't care to put effort forth because he knew he'd come back.

Of course, there's more than just this. His fight with Meetra on Korriban solidifies him as a joke, imo. Amped on a massively powerful nexus, fighting a Meetra who would have been weakened, and couldn't defeat her. It really doesn't speak well of Sion, and given Meetra's rather lacking performances in the "Revan" novel, I'm hesitant to say "well Meetra was just that powerful."

November 26th 2019, 8:08 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:Sion is an 'ultra-powerful Sith Lord', 'feared lightsaber assassin' who could one-shot mid-game Surik and defeat Lonna Vash who scales from SF!Bastila. He's also above Visas Marr who is stated to be able to butcher a small army of Sith with Force lightning and defeated three massively-amped Sith Lords in the tomb of Freedon Nadd.

Did I mention he just walks off a Force wave from an enraged Darth Nihilus which buckled bridge supports and disintegrated Sith at the same time?

You seem to be determined to portray him as trash when GSW!Sion and Darth Sion are decades apart from each other.

Visas had aid from two unidentified allies. She didn't butcher anyone or defeat any Sith Lords on her own.

"The non-canon cut content says..."

True, KotOR II is well after the GSW. I don't think it changes much at all though.

November 26th 2019, 8:13 pm

No she didn't go alone but given the order of planets, one of her companions has to have been a non-Force user.

KotOR II has a script that is perfectly canon, so you can just stop trying on that front and save us both time.

So I guess FOTJ Luke is trash because he had his hand cut off by Vader in ESB. Revan versus Darth Sion - Page 2 815462187

Revan versus Darth Sion - Page 2 815462187

November 26th 2019, 8:14 pm

darthbane77 wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:

darthbane77 wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:Where you seeing multiple times Sion was killed? The quote only suggests at best once, before that it seems it just seemed like he was racking up injuries until one day he was struck down. In fact, it's noted that he struck down multiple Jedi.

Sion embarks on a Jedi-assassination spree,"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.
Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

That quote also says he struck down more lives than he was dying, so it's not like he isn't above your standard Jedi Knight. Given however he has immortality, he probably just got sloppy a few times and was "killed". But I don't see how that makes him a trash combatant, perhaps since he knew he could come back, he didn't bother with trying to defend himself as much and instead focused more on attack.

If one can ignore pain or just come back from the dead, your defense is gonna suffer since...why would you bother if such injuries won't affect you in the long term?

So his defense is bad, since he doesn't seem to care much for it, but I don't think that overall makes him a terrible combatant with the power he has already.

That's pretty much all conjecture. Nothing indicates he was sloppy or didn't care to put effort forth because he knew he'd come back.

Of course, there's more than just this. His fight with Meetra on Korriban solidifies him as a joke, imo. Amped on a massively powerful nexus, fighting a Meetra who would have been weakened, and couldn't defeat her. It really doesn't speak well of Sion, and given Meetra's rather lacking performances in the "Revan" novel, I'm hesitant to say "well Meetra was just that powerful."

Regardless though he can clearly kill more Jedi Knights than Knights have killed him.

November 26th 2019, 8:25 pm

"dying" many more times, but always ending more enemy lives.

Why does this sound like my academic life?

November 26th 2019, 10:17 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:No she didn't go alone but given the order of planets, one of her companions has to have been a non-Force user.

KotOR II has a script that is perfectly canon, so you can just stop trying on that front and save us both time.

So I guess FOTJ Luke is trash because he had his hand cut off by Vader in ESB.

Irrelevant. She still had aid. Makes the feat, and your point, far less convincing.

I don't have to try to prove something that isn't canon...isn't canon, lmao. Unless it made it *into* the game, it matters about as much as author intent. Which sure, we can take it into *some* consideration, but treating it like it's a 100% valid source is laughable.

Did Mr. Fantastic teach you how to reach like that? Luke has well recorded, demonstrable growth across decades of source material. Sion doesn't. The two situations aren't even remotely comparable, and you, even (hopefully) jokingly making that comparison is hilarious.

November 26th 2019, 10:33 pm

1.It's literally stated that she herself 'quickly' kills three massively-amped Sith Lords who are channelling enough power to resurrect Nadd from the Void, with Force lightning:

KotOR II: TSL Prima Game Guide wrote:[size=34]Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight. Once again, Visas Marr's Force Lightning ends the battle quickly.[/size]

2.Are you this dense all the time? The script of KotOR II is Canon. It has all the wank from the cut content but better.

3.Did you even play the game? Sion is literally one of three Sith Lords who exponentially grow their power by draining
the power of the Jedi they kill. It's literal instant major power increase. That's the entire point of what made them so dangerous.

Given you've completely ignored my other points, I see no reason to think you're genuine about changing your mind.

November 26th 2019, 10:38 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:1.It's literally stated that she herself 'quickly' kills three massively-amped Sith Lords who are channelling enough power to resurrect Nadd from the Void, with Force lightning:

KotOR II: TSL Prima Game Guide wrote:[size=34]Whether because you want to deny them Freedon Nadd's power or because you refuse to share it with anyone else, you have no choice but to fight. Once again, Visas Marr's Force Lightning ends the battle quickly.[/size]

2.Are you this dense all the time? The script of KotOR II is Canon. It has all the wank from the cut content but better.

3.Did you even play the game? Sion is literally one of three Sith Lords who exponentially grow their power by draining
the power of the Jedi they kill. It's literal instant major power increase. That's the entire point of what made them so dangerous.

Given you've completely ignored my other points, I see no reason to think you're genuine about changing your mind.

1: And the game clearly has Visas aided by companions. One source is wrong, and I doubt it's the game.

2: You've yet to actually prove that the script is canon. Cut content in a game is about as canonical as a cut scene from a film, unless you can actually *prove* otherwise, drop the point and argue something you can actually support. lmao.

3: I've beaten it several times, and I don't recall it ever being mentioned that Sion drains the power of those he kills. So again, do something you haven't done yet, and prove it.

Oh I'm genuine, you're just doing a piss-poor job of proving anything you've tried arguing.

November 26th 2019, 11:13 pm

1.At no point is there a contradiction here, lmfao.

2.Here's a perfectly wonderful explanation, which you agreed with:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630797&pagenumber=1

Revan versus Darth Sion - Page 2 Screen34

Change your mind?

3.You really didn't pay much attention:

KotOR:CG wrote:But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers.

KotOR:CG wrote:Established by Darth Revan and heavily utilized by Darth Sion, these surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of Jedi execution. They drain the Force from their targets to augment their own powers

Revan versus Darth Sion - Page 2 5159653-12q7zp

November 26th 2019, 11:24 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:1.At no point is there a contradiction here, lmfao.

2.Here's a perfectly wonderful explanation, which you agreed with:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=630797&pagenumber=1

Change your mind?

3.You really didn't pay much attention:

KotOR:CG wrote:But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers.

KotOR:CG wrote:Established by Darth Revan and heavily utilized by Darth Sion, these surreptitious butchers specialize in practical modes of Jedi execution. They drain the Force from their targets to augment their own powers

1: The contradiction is that Visas clearly wasn't alone She fought those Sith troops, she fought those Sith Lords, she also had help in doing so. It's a shared feat.

2: Oh man, you used a comment I made three years ago. Ya sure got me now. Guess I have no choice but to concede. Not like people can change their minds, that's completely unheard of.

3: Whoah. They drained Traya, and the Assassins are credited with draining their opponents. Too bad Sion isn't credited with doing that in the quote you gave, otherwise I'd be up a creek. Waiting on proof that Sion does it to everyone he kills though, because the quote really doesn't say that, like, at all. It says the assassins do, and it says that Sion uses the assassins. Separate entities.

Lol @ using a gif from cut content you haven't proven is canon yet.

Provide something that proves the cut content/script is actually canonical.

November 26th 2019, 11:31 pm

1.The guide literally never says Visas is alone. It says that Visas killed the three Sith Lords 'quickly' with Force lightning. You have literally no point of contention here.

2.The thread explains everything required, I am under literally no obligation to prove it is canon when the entire community has accepted it as so through threads like the one I linked. You've given no reason to dismiss the script or the cut content. Whereas we have starwars.com and the Lead Designer of the game saying the cut content was intended. And a Steam addition that lets you choose to play the game either way.

3.They drained Traya of her power, Sion is literally one of those assassins. Their leader. The .gif is literally what happens in the OG game.

Your entire argument is baseless and is made out of biased spite.

November 26th 2019, 11:52 pm

LadyKulvax wrote:1.The guide literally never says Visas is alone. It says that Visas killed the three Sith Lords 'quickly' with Force lightning. You have literally no point of contention here.

2.The thread explains everything required, I am under literally no obligation to prove it is canon when the entire community has accepted it as so through threads like the one I linked. You've given no reason to dismiss the script or the cut content. Whereas we have starwars.com and the Lead Designer of the game saying the cut content was intended. And a Steam addition that lets you choose to play the game either way.

3.They drained Traya of her power, Sion is literally one of those assassins. Their leader. The .gif is literally what happens in the OG game.

Your entire argument is baseless and is made out of biased spite.

1: So she struck the killing blows. Doesn't mean it isn't a shared feat, which has been my point the entire time.

2: What Avellone personally intended or considers to be canon is irrelevant to what is actually canon. What the community considers to be canon is irrelevant to what is actually canon. The script, and the cut content, is not canon. It did not appear in any kind of licensed source that was actually published and produced. It is non-canon. You have no argument.

3: The event in the gif never happens in the original game. You never face Sion flanked by two of that enemy type in the original game. It's part of either the Restored Content Mod, or the M478 Restoration Mod.

Your entire argument is based on the video-game equivalent of deleted scenes, none of which are canonical unless directly confirmed to be so. There's no bias here, I like Sion, I think he's one of the cooler characters in the Old Republic era. Doesn't keep me from thinking he's fodder based on all I've seen and read of him. You can use the restored content for your headcanon, but unless you, or anyone else can actually prove that it's canon, I'll continue to laugh you off whenever you try using it as a source.

November 26th 2019, 11:58 pm

Revan, fairly easily

November 27th 2019, 12:01 am

1.The battle is literally credited to her.

2.starwars.com and the release on Steam are both inclusive of the TSLRCM mod.

The script was published with the game, what are you talking about?

3.I'll laugh you off for your blatant ignorance on the matter. Sion is literally confirmed to be ultra-powerful and has scaling to prove it.

November 27th 2019, 12:16 am

LadyKulvax wrote:1.The battle is literally credited to her.

2.starwars.com and the release on Steam are both inclusive of the TSLRCM mod.

The script was published with the game, what are you talking about?

3.I'll laugh you off for your blatant ignorance on the matter. Sion is literally confirmed to be ultra-powerful and has scaling to prove it.

1: lmao

2: You've yet to provide the quote from the website. Also wasn't aware the Steam version included TSLRCM. Not sure how that proves anything, but had you lead with that instead of refusing to actually prove it was canon, or saying "wElL tHe cOmMunItY aGrEeS" maybe this conversation would have gone differently. But hey, you've learned a lesson.

3: Lol. That's like saying Plo Koon is an ultra-powerful Jedi master just because he's one of the most powerful Jedi of the millions that have existed across history. But I mean, I'm not the one sitting here refusing to prove that my biggest source is actually legitimate.

Unless you can prove it's canon though, this will be the last time I respond. This is going nowhere and I have better things to do than argue with people who refuse to even prove their sources are legitimate.

November 27th 2019, 12:30 am

starwars.com wrote:[size=38]KotOR II[/size][size=38] had to jettison a large amount of narrative content near the end of its tight production schedule — which was amazingly restored in 2015 and is [/size][size=38]available on Steam[/size]

November 27th 2019, 12:48 am

LadyKulvax wrote:

starwars.com wrote:[size=38]KotOR II[/size][size=38] had to jettison a large amount of narrative content near the end of its tight production schedule — which was amazingly restored in 2015 and is [/size][size=38]available on Steam[/size]

Wow, you actually did that thing you're supposed to do when someone asks you to provide evidence. That wasn't so hard, was it?

I suppose if it's considered an official re-release of sorts, then I can see your POV. Not sure the website quote proves that, but it gives you more credibility at the very least.

Unfortunately, the restored content mod is still exactly that, a mod. It's fan-developed, not created by the actual dev team. The content was still cut from the game's official release. So I doubt it stands in any solid capacity.