Re: Why and How did Vader become sub-TPM Kenobi?

November 10th 2019, 5:41 am Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

@WalkingInCircles There's no need to respond, my entire "Vader is sub TPM Kenobi" arguments were trolling. I was gonna respond to AZ and Cilghal, and drag it out for a little longer but tbh, I'm not really in the mood.

November 10th 2019, 5:52 am

SithSauce wrote:Here are my two cents.
Sure TPM Kenobi maybe faster and more skillfull than Vader with a blade due to being a healthy and fit Jedi from the "prime of the jedi". But that doesn't mean he is a better duelist than Vader. In a similar fashion to how Dooku has more knowledge than Anakin in lightsaber combat, due to decades of training and sparring, but that doesn't mean Anakin isn't the superior duelist.

Additionally, Vader isn't an energetic speed fighter. He's a power fighter. I know canon isn't Legends, but the way they showed Vader's style is pretty much spot on. Adding onto what Azronger said, Lucas never particularly excludes Vader as being inferior to the combatants in the prequels.

November 10th 2019, 1:20 pm

@lorenzo.r.2nd

1) Vader's command over the Empire is irrelevant to the discussion.

2) Vader being afraid of Kenobi doesn't mean he was hindered, indeed Dark Side users can draw upon fear to fuel themselves.

3) The Galaxy of Fear novels take place after ANH, and regardless it's a character opinion from someone who probably never met Obi-Wan.

4) Pretty sure the quote is Canon, not Legends, though regardless of whether that's the case my position is more supported as I have more quotes than you, meaning it's irrelevant.

5) Kenobi is explicitly out of practice, so no he's not more experienced nor smarter as a fighter. As for his Force Power increasing, I'm pretty sure most quotes say it stayed the same, though it doesn't matter regardless as the increase clearly wasn't gargantuan given that Kenobi in terms of combative capability is overall still a "shadow of his former self." Plus, Kenobi is more powerful than Vader as of ANH, as confirmed by George Lucas, meaning you can't scale Vader off his Force Power anyway.

November 10th 2019, 3:12 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@WalkingInCircles There's no need to respond, my entire "Vader is sub TPM Kenobi" arguments were trolling. I was gonna respond to AZ and Cilghal, and drag it out for a little longer but tbh, I'm not really in the mood.

November 10th 2019, 5:03 pm

@wordsalad sorry didnt see that lol

1) no it not, and i even explained why, but u do u.

2) usage of the force is based on the mind, and nothing more. unstable mind= unstable performance, so it 100% affects the fight.

3) cool thanks, but i already knew that. the point was to say that vader is factually above any beings that arent sheev, abeloth, and people like that. that would put him above gethzerion, joruus, exar kun, and karness muur. but if u wanna believe that old man kenobi= all of those people, then go right ahead.

4) my quotes are more recent. that takes precedence, i believe, doenst it? otherwise, kenobi would be two leagues above vader, and have more than 80% of sidious' power, after sheev himself got stronger since ROTS. good luck with that bro. and i said this before, but lucas' quotes are about as useless as the gillard scale, when discussing legends. i dont use them for that exact reason.

5) him being older, having seen more, and having met/fought stronger people means that his experience and intelligence= kenobi from 20 years ago? ok lmao ok. and um, kenobi himself says to vader that he also grew in power, in the movie itself, if im not wrong, which i could be. could this be some dun moch to fuck with vader? very likely. is it a lie though? no, because yoda himself says that he will need kenobi to train in the force after ROTS, not to mention the other quotes that the surviving jedi got stronger in either the force, or with a lightsaber. kenobi got stronger with the force. and i already said how unreliable lucas' quotes. any of them can be debunked 10 different ways.

November 10th 2019, 6:17 pm

@lorenzo.r.2nd

1) no it not, and i even explained why, but u do u.

No you didn't. Vader's high position being based on his power in the Force doesn't place him above Kenobi.

2) usage of the force is based on the mind, and nothing more. unstable mind= unstable performance, so it 100% affects the fight.

Erm, no? Sith can use these emotions to bolster their performance.

3) cool thanks, but i already knew that. the point was to say that vader is factually above any beings that arent sheev, abeloth, and people like that. that would put him above gethzerion, joruus, exar kun, and karness muur. but if u wanna believe that old man kenobi= all of those people, then go right ahead.

None of this addresses the fact that it's a character opinion from someone who has never met any of these people.

4) my quotes are more recent. that takes precedence, i believe, doenst it? otherwise, kenobi would be two leagues above vader, and have more than 80% of sidious' power, after sheev himself got stronger since ROTS. good luck with that bro. and i said this before, but lucas' quotes are about as useless as the gillard scale, when discussing legends. i dont use them for that exact reason.

You don't have multiple more recent quotes. You have one more recent quote compared to my two quotes, and as far as I'm aware, it's not even Legends.

5) him being older, having seen more, and having met/fought stronger people means that his experience and intelligence= kenobi from 20 years ago?

No, he's worse off in technical skill, due to being out of practice.

ok lmao ok. and um, kenobi himself says to vader that he also grew in power, in the movie itself, if im not wrong, which i could be. could this be some dun moch to fuck with vader? very likely. is it a lie though?

Kenobi's referring to his ability to become a Force Ghost.

no, because yoda himself says that he will need kenobi to train in the force after ROTS, not to mention the other quotes that the surviving jedi got stronger in either the force, or with a lightsaber. kenobi got stronger with the force.

1. Yoda said he'd teach Kenobi how to commune with Jinn that's not the same as him training Kenobi to become a better fighter, in fact, both of them went their own separate ways into exile.

2. Kenobi is obviously exempt from that quote given that about 3 different quotes say he decreased.

and i already said how unreliable lucas' quotes. any of them can be debunked 10 different ways.

This isn't an argument.

November 10th 2019, 6:53 pm

1) his position represents his power growth. the higher the position the higher the power. im not talking about kenobi here, im talking about vader.

2) im not even gonna respond to this tbh.

3) ever heard of author's intent? its when someone like darth maul says that sheev is the strongest sith ever, even tho he doenst know shit, because the author wants to make a point. or when sheev talks greatly about some ancient sith whom he has never met, seen, or even 'felt' before. or when traya says that she is trash compared to the ancient sith. same thing man. same exact thing.

4) i still dont know which one u are even talking about lol u never said which one.

5) so im right nonetheless, ok.

6) knowing how to become a ghost doenst make u stronger. what makes u stronger, is becoming a force ghost.

7) he decreased physically, nothing says he got worse in the force.

8) yeah attacking the validity of the course isnt an argument. ur right. then i suppose u have no problem with my sources either then?

February 29th 2020, 1:42 pm

Why do most people on this site hate Vader or use out of context statements to lowball him?

It's a bit silly and childish

February 29th 2020, 1:46 pm

bruh, no

February 29th 2020, 1:54 pm

Now you've done it...

February 29th 2020, 2:01 pm

Oh for shit’s sake. Do you know what you’ve done? But seriously, Vader’s just not that good of a combatant lol. Most people here hold Vader low because a certain user basically went on an uncontrolled rampage. I love Vader as a character, but he’s a terrible combatant.

February 29th 2020, 2:05 pm

@LordGok: There’s no need to create a third account to express your disappointment with Vader’s reputation. I recommend using just one account and engaging with users who disagree with you in discussion and debate. When I joined the debate community, many members had Revan below Asajj Ventress. I helped change that by talking with them. You can do the same. Also, consider this a warning against making other alts in the future.

I will be merging this thread with a similar thread posted by another user.

February 29th 2020, 2:22 pm

IG wrote:I love Vader as a character