Why and How did Vader become sub-TPM Kenobi?

Give us that source in its exact wording.

Because Lucas said he was and the quote has been posted dozens of times with no satisfactory rebuttal.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Because Lucas said he was and the quote has been posted dozens of times with no satisfactory rebuttal.

TPM Kenobi > Ben Kenobi > RoTS Kenobi

Vader > Ben Kenobi 

How is Vader > Ben but < TPM Kenobi?

Because Ben is also beneath TPM Kenobi.

Ben BEAT A'Sharad who is > TPM Kenobi because he dispatched a AoTC Anakin

Lucas never said Vader is sub TPM Kenobi. It's a really childish trolling attempt.

Give us that damn quote.

Latham2000 wrote:Give us that damn quote.

There isn't one outside of the "Jedi in their prime" one which was debunked a while ago as being advertising and also meant TPM Kenobi >> ROTJ Luke.

A) The OOU reasoning (Meant to hype up TPM fight choreography) doesn't remove the IU ramifications of the quote, nor the fact that it comes from the guy who can do whatever the fuck he likes with SW.

B) Why isn't TPM Kenobi>ROTJ Luke a feasible position?

A) The OOU reasoning (Meant to hype up TPM fight choreography) doesn't remove the IU ramifications of the quote, nor the fact that it comes from the guy who can do whatever the fuck he likes with SW.

Ahem:

Just how restrictive was that costume?
He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England.

As you said, Lucas could do whatever he wanted with Star Wars, and he clearly established the logistical difficulties then noted that the choreography massively improved in ESB when compared to ANH, so "the IU ramifications of the quote" also suggest that ESB Vader >>> ANH Vader to the point that they're barely comparable. Oh, and this also partially retcons the TPM quote since this is from 2005 as opposed to the 1999 one.

B) Why isn't TPM Kenobi>ROTJ Luke a feasible position?

Oh, it's not about the position, it's just that you've offered nothing concrete to back it up beyond one quote that was all but retconned.

@WalkingInCircles:

As you said, Lucas could do whatever he wanted with Star Wars, and he clearly established the logistical difficulties then noted that the choreography massively improved in ESB when compared to ANH, so "the IU ramifications of the quote" also suggest that ESB Vader >>> ANH Vader to the point that they're barely comparable.

Ok...

What does this have to do with Vader being sub TPM Kenobi? It can simultaneously be true that Kenobi is better than Vader, and that Vader's ESB incarnation>>>His ANH incarnation. Not even sure that's true based off this though, it only seems to put a gap, not a huge one. I'd think of it like this:

ROTJ Vader=ROTJ Luke>ESB Vader>ESB Luke>ANH Ben=ANH Vader.

Oh, and this also partially retcons the TPM quote since this is from 2005 as opposed to the 1999 one.

But... why? Them getting a better stuntman and making the fights more active doesn't alter the fact that the choreography was a lot worse than in the PT, and that Lucas stated Vader was beneath TPM Kenobi.

EmperorCaedus wrote:Ben BEAT A'Sharad who is > TPM Kenobi because he dispatched a AoTC Anakin

Ben beat Hett one year post-ROTS compared to him stalemating Vader twenty years post-ROTS.

@EmperorCaedus

TPM Kenobi > Ben Kenobi > RoTS Kenobi

Vader > Ben Kenobi

1. Ben is factually weaker than his ROTS self as testified by several sources.

2. Vader and Kenobi were factually equal per objective quotes.

Ok...

What does this have to do with Vader being sub TPM Kenobi? It can simultaneously be true that Kenobi is better than Vader, and that Vader's ESB incarnation>>>His ANH incarnation. Not even sure that's true based off this though, it only seems to put a gap, not a huge one. I'd think of it like this:

ROTJ Vader=ROTJ Luke>ESB Vader>ESB Luke>ANH Ben=ANH Vader.

Except the choreography screams that it improved leaps and bounds. If we operate by the logic that choreography = skill, then ESB Vader >>> ANH Vader. However, unlike your arguing TPM Obi-Wan > Vader, there are actual accolades to back this up.

But... why? Them getting a better stuntman and making the fights more active doesn't alter the fact that the choreography was a lot worse than in the PT, and that Lucas stated Vader was beneath TPM Kenobi.

This actually makes no sense whatsoever. You're basically arguing TPM Kenobi > ROTJ Luke or ROTJ Vader because...the effects and choreography were better, whereas I'm using that quote to support the already established idea that Vader improved significantly between ANH and ESB. Do you have any other actual accolades or explicit wording from Lucas to confirm TPM Obi-Wan > ROTJ Vader, or is this all just reliant on taking a single quote completely out of context to put your own spin on it? Literally all that quote confirms is that Lucas wanted faster-paced fights, not that that automatically translates into them being more skilled, and especially not being more powerful.

1. Ben is factually weaker than his ROTS self as testified by several sources.

In saber skill, undoubtedly. In Force power, not so much.

2. Vader and Kenobi were factually equal per objective quotes.

What objective sources are these, considering The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader and Death Star explore the idea that Vader was mentally hindered yet was still winning, which is also backed up by The Adventures of Luke Skywalker? The script also has Ben backing away near enough the entire fight, with the film also depicting him as retreating as Vader advances, whether to gain room or because (as Rise and Fall, Death Star, and The Adventures depict it as) Vader is forcing him back.

And just because I find this better choreography = better skill/power BS based on one completely out of universe and promotional/logistical Lucas quote so ridiculous, do I really need to point to the Mace Windu vs Sidious fight as compared to the likes of ESB and ROTJ's lightsaber fights? Because by that standard TPM Obi-Wan > ROTJ Luke > ROTJ Vader >>> ROTS Mace > ROTS Sheev.

So either you believe this, you're trolling, or you're deliberately playing devil's advocate to such an extent that it comes across as you being purposely obtuse.

@WalkingInCircles

In saber skill, undoubtedly. In Force power, not so much.

I never stated otherwise? Still, he is significantly weaker than his ROTS self as while his Force Power remained the same he massively decreased physically to the point where he's a "shadow of his former self" in terms of overall combat ability meaning Vader is significantly below the PT tier 8s (that doesn't mean he's sub-TPM Kenobi though).

What objective sources are these, considering The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader and Death Star explore the idea that Vader was mentally hindered yet was still winning, which is also backed up by The Adventures of Luke Skywalker? The script also has Ben backing away near enough the entire fight, with the film also depicting him as retreating as Vader advances, whether to gain room or because (as Rise and Fall, Death Star, and The Adventures depict it as) Vader is forcing him back.

As I've said before, cherry-picking a selective portion of the fight, using it to conclude Vader was dominating the entirety of it despite the OOU quotes that state otherwise, and ignoring all of the parts that look best for Ben is a bogus methodology for getting an idea of how these characters stack up to each other. Facts are:

-Ben and Vader initially trade blows and fight back and forth indicating they were fairly evenly matched.

-Vader drives Ben back, however, this isn't of consequence as we in the next section of the fight Ben gains an advantage. Plus, concluding someone is better than their opponent because they drove them back doesn't even make sense, because that's not how fights work, there are always segments where someone can gain advantage over an equally good opponent, yet be losing at the next point. This is very weak grounds to dismiss an objective 3rd party statement telling us that the fight was evenly matched.

-Ben strikes at Vader with a series of quick thrusts, making Vader think he could lose the fight if he even tried to warn the stormtroopers around him not to intervene.

As for Vader being mentally hindered, that requires further substantiation.

@WalkingInCircles Your entire rebuttal is just you pointing fingers and saying "but you said choreography is a great proxy for power", but I never once uttered those words in my post, rendering your entire tangent completely irrelevant. What you've proved thus far:

A) Lucas wanted faster paced action sequences in the PT, and the statement is him hyping up his new movie.

B) Lucas got a better stuntman for ESB.

C) The logic we end up with if we take choreography=power as legit.

What was not countered in your post however, was Lucas explicitly stating that TPM Kenobi>Vader. The OOU reasoning behind the quote's existence does nothing to alter it in any way. You bringing up separate quotes that talk about him getting better stuntmen does nothing either, because as stated previously, the choreography in ESB and ROTJ is still sub par next to the PT, so Lucas's rationalisation for his quote still holds, not that it matters if it does or doesn't anyway.

Word Salad wrote:@EmperorCaedus

TPM Kenobi > Ben Kenobi > RoTS Kenobi

Vader > Ben Kenobi

1. Ben is factually weaker than his ROTS self as testified by several sources.

2. Vader and Kenobi were factually equal per objective quotes.

Sorry I meant RoTS Kenobi > Ben > TPM Kenobi. 

But Vader is still > Ben

ok, now this is something i wanna see- where does it say that obi wan and him were matched? any quote that says is contradictory to the lore lol they stalemated because vader was mentally unstable. he was afraid of fighting kenobi again, he know that one hit could mean certain death, and he also knew that kenobi is no idiot. doesnt mean they are equals. plus, vader was pushing him back the whole time, not even giving him a chance to attempt a counter.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Because Lucas said he was and the quote has been posted dozens of times with no satisfactory rebuttal.

He never said that. He said that the fighting in TPM would be "a faster and more energetic version" of the choreography in the original trilogy, and gave the in-universe justification of the Jedi being in the prime during the prequels while the original trilogy is depicting old and withered warriors from a bygone age. That, however, doesn't mean Vader can't be more powerful or overall a more devastating combatant than Kenobi, even if his dueling is seemingly slower and less refined.

DC77 (reborn) wrote:Because Lucas said he was and the quote has been posted dozens of times with no satisfactory rebuttal.

In addition to what @Azronger said, I would like to add that if we are to take the quote’s meaning as “Kenobi is a better combatant than Vader” we would have to place Kenobi (and every PT jedi who is depicted in a fight, for that matter) far above Vader, since the choreography in the Prequels depicts the combatants a lot faster than in the OT. Of course, my assertion is based on the fact the statement from Lucas is strongly linked to choreography more than anything else.  I doubt Lucas is saying Vader is inferior to every PT Jedi because they fight faster and with more energy. 
Then again, Lucas never compares Kenobi and Vader directly, so I’m still unsure how one can come to this conclusion.

Azronger wrote:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Because Lucas said he was and the quote has been posted dozens of times with no satisfactory rebuttal.

He never said that. He said that the fighting in TPM would be "a faster and more energetic version" of the choreography in the original trilogy, and gave the in-universe justification of the Jedi being in the prime during the prequels while the original trilogy is depicting old and withered warriors from a bygone age. That, however, doesn't mean Vader can't be more powerful or overall a more devastating combatant than Kenobi, even if his dueling is seemingly slower and less refined.

Here are my two cents.
Sure TPM Kenobi maybe faster and more skillfull than Vader with a blade due to being a healthy and fit Jedi from the "prime of the jedi". But that doesn't mean he is a better duelist than Vader. In a similar fashion to how Dooku has more knowledge than Anakin in lightsaber combat, due to decades of training and sparring, but that doesn't mean Anakin isn't the superior duelist.

@lorenzo.r.2nd

ok, now this is something i wanna see- where does it say that obi wan and him were matched?

It's supported by several statements:

The New Essential Guide to Characters wrote:Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.

Mysteries of the Jedi wrote:Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.

So... what else is there to say?

any quote that says is contradictory to the lore lol they stalemated because vader was mentally unstable.

Unsubstantiated.

he was afraid of fighting kenobi again,

Quote? Regardless the fact that Vader was cautious does not mean he was hindered, in fact, he'd be more likely to not make rash decisions in the fight for fear of being struck down.

he know that one hit could mean certain death,

That's pretty much the case with any Lightsaber duel lmao.

and he also knew that kenobi is no idiot.

He also knew ESB Luke wasn't an idiot, and neither was Starkiller. Would you say he was hindered against them?

doesnt mean they are equals.

Objective sources state they are, and they have more credibility than a poster on an internet forum who has a clear bias for Vader.

plus, vader was pushing him back the whole time, not even giving him a chance to attempt a counter.

Addressed in my last post:

I wrote:-Ben and Vader initially trade blows and fight back and forth indicating they were fairly evenly matched.

-Vader drives Ben back, however, this isn't of consequence as we in the next section of the fight Ben gains an advantage. Plus, concluding someone is better than their opponent because they drove them back doesn't even make sense, because that's not how fights work, there are always segments where someone can gain advantage over an equally good opponent, yet be losing at the next point. This is very weak grounds to dismiss an objective 3rd party statement telling us that the fight was evenly matched.

-Ben strikes at Vader with a series of quick thrusts, making Vader think he could lose the fight if he even tried to warn the stormtroopers around him not to intervene.

i have like, 4 quotes that contradict that, and are much newer too.

In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself. --Insider 65...


At the beginning of A New Hope, Darth Vader is so powerful in the Dark Side that he is second in command of the entire galaxy! --Adventures Magazine 4...



by the way, his command is reflective of his power, in case u didnt know.


For the first time he could remember, the dark side had no answer. And a great surge of unfamiliar emotion suddenly washed over him. Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. --Death Star...



proves that he was afraid and unstable, and that kenobi was not his equal


Vader. The thought of him made Tash's skin crawl. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith, a master of the dark side of the Force and, next to the Emperor, the most powerful man in the galaxy. --Galaxy Of Fear: Army Of Terror...



As the blade of the Dark Lord's lightsaber reduced his fomer Jedi Master to nothingness, Vader's relationship with Obi-Wan Kenobi seemed to have come full circle from Mustafar. The Dark Lord's victory proved that he was now the master, both of the lightsaber and the Force itself. --Star Wars Fact File 1 (Relaunched)...



him being too much for kenobi even while afraid.. oh, and while kenobi's body had aged, his force did no such thing, as he got better. his precog wouldve been better, his augmentaion wouldve been better, and he is smarter and more experienced than ROTS kenobi, eveen if kenobi is more fit and more skilled with a blade.

@DC_(Reborn) Sorry for not responding. Lots of stuff going on irl both personally and academically as well as a lack of interest in debating anymore so I don't have much time or incentive to post detailed responses (also the reason I barely reply to counters or tags anymore, to anyone interested).

Btw @Azronger, any ideas on how to tag people with more than one word in their user?