Darth Maul vs Qui-Gon Jinn (read op)

Well to be fair in the desert Qui-Gon had been running a considerable distance with Anakin and wasn't prepared to fight Maul.

I think the Tatooine fight is underrated yeah. I view the combatants as near equals, with Maul being somewhat more skilled, better trained and possessing more raw potential to draw from.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Well to be fair in the desert Qui-Gon had been running a considerable distance with Anakin and wasn't prepared to fight Maul.

Qui-Gon was only caught off guard because he overcame the shock of being unprepared through extreme focus:

"This duel marked the first time Jedi and Sith lightsaber blades had crossed in centuries. Darth Maul's leaping assault nearly caught Qui-Gon off-guard. It was only through extreme focus that Qui-Gon was able to shake off any shock and put up a defense. However, if his escape vessel had not appeared in time, it is likely Qui-Gon would have tired under Darth Maul's relentless attacks." — Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force.

Sure but he still ran a pretty far distance and the quote doesn't mean that Qui-Gon wasn't tried. Not that it'd matter though.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Sure but he still ran a pretty far distance and the quote doesn't mean that Qui-Gon wasn't tried. Not that it'd matter though.

But are there any quotes that actually say that Qui-Gon was tired?

Latham2000 wrote:But are there any quotes that actually say that Qui-Gon was tired?

Well no not that I've found but in Legends at least the complete locations guide shows that the ship was landed a good deal away from Anakin's home so even a lifelong athlete like Qui-Gon at his age would likely be tired and that combined with not expecting a fight with an opponent of equal or greater skill/power would probably throw him off. 

It's like how in I think it was the AOTC comic how Obi-Wan and Anakin were already tired from the arena fight and then fought Dooku. Even considering they got to rest while riding on the gunship they weren't exactly fresh.  

It just makes sense in terms of what happens later in their second duel where Qui-Gon only tires until the very end. Sure you could say that it wasn't just Qui-Gon as he was fighting with Kenobi but I take that as a legitimate endurance showing.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:But are there any quotes that actually say that Qui-Gon was tired?

Well no not that I've found but in Legends at least the complete locations guide shows that the ship was landed a good deal away from Anakin's home so even a lifelong athlete like Qui-Gon at his age would likely be tired

So you're just speculating. Qui-Gon wasn't pushing himself to his limits when he was running from Anakin's home to the ship, it's actually a lot more likely that he was delibarately curbing his own running speed because he was also running with Anakin, who is an untrained Force sensitive, nor does he exactly know where the ship was, whereas Qui-Gon is a Force sensitive who has the capacity to run much, much faster than an untrained 9-10 year old Force sensitive human could. Not to mention, when they are running, Anakin complains about being tired whereas Qui-Gon says nothing about himself experiencing fatigue e.g. "So am I" but just tells Anakin to drop. So it's pretty feasible for Qui-Gon to not be tired from that run. Not to mention, there's no sign of fatigue on Qui-Gon, he's not sweating and he's not panting. He only starts showing fatigue when Maul enters the picture.

and that combined with not expecting a fight with an opponent of equal or greater skill/power would probably throw him off.

He was only "nearly" caught off guard, and he shook off the shock of being abruptly attacked by his superior (Maul) through "extreme focus" so whatever surprise that Maul had to his advantage immediately disappeared the moment they clashed blades.

It's like how in I think it was the AOTC comic how Obi-Wan and Anakin were already tired from the arena fight and then fought Dooku. Even considering they got to rest while riding on the gunship they weren't exactly fresh. 

Huge false equivalency. Obi-Wan and Anakin were fighting hundreds of droids and wild homicidal beasts that were actively trying to kill them. Qui-Gon just went for a jog.

It just makes sense in terms of what happens later in their second duel where Qui-Gon only tires until the very end. Sure you could say that it wasn't just Qui-Gon as he was fighting with Kenobi but I take that as a legitimate endurance showing.

Maul put more focus on using typical Sith aggression to overpower Qui-Gon on Tatooine, whereas on Naboo he took a more measured approach against Qui-Gon by delibarately committing himself more to using defense and finesse to outskill Qui-Gon rather than just trying to overpower him because it might not have been as practical for Maul to overpower Qui-Gon on Naboo as he would on a wide environment like the deserts of Tatooine because they fought in a more confined environment that probably would've compromised how much offensive output Maul could generate, notice the lack of acrobatics Maul incorporates when they fight in the Theed generator complex? Throughout most of that duel, Maul delibaretely gave ground not by necessity, but by choice, which is supported by TPM novel, TWoDM and Fact Files.

Not to mention, Qui-Gon did have help from Obi-Wan for a large part of that duel, so he wouldn't have been exerting himself as much as he had to on Tatooine, whereas Maul would've been exerting himself more than he did on Tatooine because he's fighting 2 opponents this time.

Well obviously Qui-Gon better have more stamina than 9 year old Anakin. I don't think he was at his limits but going by the complete locations guide it's still a considerable distance be running. 

While Maul initially ambushed him Qui-Gon still wasn't prepared for a fight which is what I was referring to as at that point he had little to no expectation of encountering another saber user let alone someone of Maul's level. 

That comparison wasn't supposed to be that literal. My point was that they're both examples of combatants previously doing things that would wear them out although I do agree Qui-Gon had it easier. 

Of course sources state that but that's most likely a result of Maul fighting two Jedi rather than one. 

Well that's also worth noting is that Maul chose a more linear environment whether it was the bridges or the hallways but they did fight in the hanger initially. 

I forget, are there quotes saying whether or not the plan Maul had was a fallback option?

Qui-Gon running to the ship is irrelevant when he's not using the Force to do so. Physical stamina has no sway when you're using the Force to augment yourself. Whatever fatigue Qui-Gon did have would be washed away the moment he brandished his lightsaber, as if he'd been fresh from the start. 

Maul planned to separate the two from the very start.

TheNuisanceBird wrote:Well obviously Qui-Gon better have more stamina than 9 year old Anakin. I don't think he was at his limits but going by the complete locations guide it's still a considerable distance be running.

A distance that hasn't actually been proven to have fatigued him.

While Maul initially ambushed him Qui-Gon still wasn't prepared for a fight which is what I was referring to as at that point he had little to no expectation of encountering another saber user let alone someone of Maul's level.

Yeah Qui-Gon was unprepared... But he immediately shaked off the shock of being unprepared for a fight with a lightsaber wielding opponent through "extreme focus" by the time their blades clashed.

That comparison wasn't supposed to be that literal. My point was that they're both examples of combatants previously doing things that would wear them out although I do agree Qui-Gon had it easier.

But Qui-Gon had it far, far easier than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Anakin and Obi-Wan were officially stated to be fatigued from their battle with homicidal droids and wild beasts in the arena, Qui-Gon wasn't officially stated to be tired from his jog, nor did he show any signs of fatigue until Maul forced Qui-Gon to exert himself in their lightsaber duel. Qui-Gon only started becoming tired from fighting Maul.

Of course sources state that but that's most likely a result of Maul fighting two Jedi rather than one.

I'm going to assume that this is a response to my point about Maul's sparing use of acrobatics on Naboo, but you're forgetting that Maul was only fighting Qui-Gon at one point while taking a more measured and defensive approach to beat Qui-Gon through skill (and successfully achieves this through a hilt trick), rather than trying to overpower him through strength and tenacity like on Tatooine. What specific point of mine was this a response to anyway? You might want to start using the quote system.

Well that's also worth noting is that Maul chose a more linear environment whether it was the bridges or the hallways but they did fight in the hanger initially.

That's true, but that was against both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, Maul and Qui-Gon have their 1v1 in the Theed generator bridge and that room with the pit, but Maul initially fought the duo in the Theed hangar and Maul makes visible use of acrobatics there, but only performs one backflip at one point in the Theed generator bridge to leap from one bridge to another.

I forget, are there quotes saying whether or not the plan Maul had was a fallback option?

Maul planned to separate the two from the beginning of the duel because it was the most practical avenue of victory.

Well unfortunately I'm not proficient yet at using the quote system. 

True he probably wasn't drawing on the Force to run. 

I meant how quotes say that Maul by choice gave ground and set them up. 

Yeah I don't think Maul necessarily needed acrobatics until Kenobi was using his rage which he probably didn't plan for. Now that I think about it he probably expected to kill Kenobi first then finish Qui-Gon off alone behind the red doors of death to give himself space. 

Actually wasn't there something about Qui-Gon charging himself up while meditating?

The primary source is End Game; read that for Maul committing the entire generator complex to muscle memory and his plan to separate the Jedi and kill them one-by-one.

Other sources include;



Star Wars in 100 Scenes



Starships & Vehicles Collection #21



Starships & Vehicles Collection #21



Starships & Vehicles Collection #21

Star Wars: Episode I Adventures wrote:“As well trained and ruthless as he was… together, Qui-Gon and I could beat him… and the Sith Lord knew it. So he found a way to divide us.”

Jedi vs Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:“He used a double-bladed lightsaber and moved incredibly fast. Just as I sensed that the creature was aware that Qui-Gon and I would beat him, he found a way to divide us.”

Star Wars: Sith Wars

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Note that Maul "has" to separate them, and that is his primary plan all along.

Qui-Gon isn't charging himself up during the meditation. He's regaining his balance and centering himself, preparing for the final assault:

Episode I Novelisation wrote:Qui-Gon Jinn knelt in meditation, facing toward the Sith Lord and the melting pit, his head lowered over his lightsaber. He was gathering himself for a final assault, bringing himself in tune with the Force.

Adventures #15 wrote:Be in the moment, Qui-Gon told himself.

The Sith Lord had shaken him. He would need to regain his balance.

Qui-Gon sat. Closing his eyes, he meditated and waited.

Also, Maul and Qui-Gon were using acrobatics on Tatooine per the script and Illustrated Screenplay. Note that half the duel is off-screen.

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@Latham2000

Maul put more focus on using typical Sith aggression to overpower Qui-Gon on Tatooine, whereas on Naboo he took a more measured approach against Qui-Gon by delibarately committing himself more to using defense and finesse to outskill Qui-Gon rather than just trying to overpower him

Evidence?

Throughout most of that duel, Maul delibaretely gave ground not by necessity, but by choice, which is supported by TPM novel, TWoDM and Fact Files.

See above-posted quotes - Maul wasn't winning. He "had" to separate them to win. It was a stalemate that would eventually tip in the Jedi's favour.

@Meatpants

Evidence?

The notion that Maul taking a more measured approach by using defense Qui-Gon on Naboo is suggested here:

"But Qui-Gon recognized that while it might seem as if the Jedi were driving him before them, it was the Sith Lord who was controlling the struggle. Wheeling and spinning, leaping and somersaulting with astonishing ease, their enemy was taking them with him, drawing them on to a place of his own choosing." — The Phantom Menace Novel.

This is reinforced by 4 more quotes:

"However, it was the Sith assassin's plan to allow the Jedi to feel that they were succeeding, even as he led them to their doom." — Starships & Vehicles Collection #21

"Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you." — The Wrath of Darth Maul.

"Maul appeared able to orchestrate the fight in a no-holds-barred struggle to the death. Supple and quick, he fought with a confidence and ease that threatened to eclipse the skills of the two Jedi." — The Official Star Wars Fact Files 1.

"Darth Maul fell back from the combined attacks of the two Jedi, but it was clear that this was an intentional act, not one driven by necessity. Maul led his opponents into the generator complex adjacent to the palace, using it to eventually seperate Qui-Gon from his Padawan." — The Official Star Wars Fact File 28

And the notion that Maul used finesse to overcome Qui-Gon on Naboo is confirmed here:

"When Qui-Gon is briefly separated from Obi-Wan by an energized laser barrier, Darth Maul uses his superior Sith fighting skills to kill the Jedi Master." — The Ultimate Visual Guide, page 39.

"When Qui-Gon is briefly separated from Obi-Wan by an energized laser barrier, Darth Maul uses his superior Sith fighting skills to kill the Jedi Master." — The Ultimate Visual Guide: Special Edition, page 41.

"When Qui-Gon is briefly separated from Obi-Wan by an energized laser barrier, Darth Maul uses his superior Sith fighting skills to kill the Jedi Master." — The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded, page 43.

And we know how Maul achieved the success of beating Qui-Gon through finesse; he slammed his saberstaff hilt in Qui-Gon's face, which Sidious described as precise:

"The battle with Qui-Gon ended with a simple move, a trick: Using the hilt of a lightsaber to knock an opponent under the chin. Maul usually disdained such blunt maneuvers. He is an elegant fighter. Precise. But when he saw his opening, no doubt he remembered my lesson.

A blow to Qui-Gon's chin left him dazed.

Push your advantage always.

Maul's lightsaber whirled, and ran Qui-Gon Jinn through. The Jedi Master fell." — Episode I Journal: Darth Maul.

Even without these quotes, I think it's already sort of evident that Maul was using a different tactic against Qui-Gon on Naboo than he did on Tatooine. On Tatooine he was being aggressive and proactive, trying to wear down Qui-Gon's guard as quickly as possible via kinetic power, whereas on Naboo he's being methodical and calculating by playing defense, allowing Qui-Gon to mount an offensive until Qui-Gon overextends by leaving an opening in his guard that Maul can exploit through finesse.

See above-posted quotes - Maul wasn't winning. He "had" to separate them to win. It was a stalemate that would eventually tip in the Jedi's favour.

I didn't actually say that Maul was winning, you're putting words in my mouth. I was talking specifically about why Maul gave ground, I didn't say anything about why he separated them given that Maul was already giving ground before he separated the Jedi.

The notion that Maul taking a more measured approach by using defense Qui-Gon on Naboo is suggested here:

That's not what I'm asking. What exactly is the difference between Maul's strategy on Tatooine as opposed to the generator pit on Naboo? He's not necessarily attempting something different. He gets forced onto the defensive by Qui-Gon's assault, that's the only reason why he's not going at him from the start.

Episode I Novelisation wrote:It appeared that the Jedi Master would. He had found a fresh reserve of strength during his meditation, and now he was attacking with a ferocity that seemed to have the Sith Lord stymied. With quick, hard strokes of his lightsaber, he bored into his adversary, deliberately engaging in close-quarters combat, refusing to let the other bring his double-bladed weapon to bear. He drove Darth Maul backward about the rim of the overhang, keeping the Sith Lord constantly on the defensive, pressing in on him steadily. Qui-Gon Jinn might no longer be young, but he was still powerful. Darth Maul's ragged face took on a frenzied look, and the glitter of his strange eyes brightened with uncertainty.

Adventures #15 wrote:Qui-Gon went after the Sith Lord with all he had - a fury of lightsaber slashes that sent the black-clad warrior reeling.

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The only thing that changed was before the laser gates, where Maul obviously had to play more defensively.

And it's not like Maul wouldn't have used that hilt attack on Qui-Gon on Tatooine if the opportunity presented itself.

And the notion that Maul used finesse to overcome Qui-Gon on Naboo is confirmed here:

If Maul cut down Qui-Gon on Tatooine, those explanations would also apply. Not mutually exclusive.

Even without these quotes, I think it's already sort of evident that Maul was using a different tactic against Qui-Gon on Naboo than he did on Tatooine. On Tatooine he was being aggressive and proactive, trying to wear down Qui-Gon's guard as quickly as possible via kinetic power, whereas on Naboo he's being methodical and calculating by playing defense, allowing Qui-Gon to mount an offensive until Qui-Gon overextends by leaving an opening in his guard that Maul can exploit through finesse.

There's no evidence that Maul was allowing Qui-Gon to wear himself out at any portion of the duel. If Maul had the chance to kill Qui-Gon, he would have taken it, even before the laser gates. Qui-Gon is just that good really.

I didn't actually say that Maul was winning, you're putting words in my mouth. I was talking specifically about why Maul gave ground, I didn't say anything about why he separated them given that Maul was already giving ground before he separated the Jedi.

My mistake, I thought you meant throughout the whole duel.

R1 goes to Qui-Gon, R2 still goes to Maul.