Revan & Knightfall Vader vs. Vaylin & Valkorion

Prime iterations, all-out, etc. etc.

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Team 2.

Valk's casual handling of the Arcann/Outlander/Vaylin trio is good enough to say he can take this team. Vaylin is the icing on the cake.

Depends on the degree of Valk's superiority over SWTOR Vitiate. If he shares any semblance of power with his previous iteration then team 1 all day. If he's significantly more powerful then I would back team 2, although tentatively due to the presence of Vader. His actualized power may be above Valk's but it's hard to tell since he uses his power internally.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Team 2.

Valk's casual handling of the Arcann/Outlander/Vaylin trio is good enough to say he can take this team. Vaylin is the icing on the cake.

Not extensive enough, but I'll spare this comment as an example to others of what not to post.

valkorion is up there with sidious and luke when it comes to force powers and knowledge .
and while he loses to both he is probably the 3rd most powerful force user ever .

with a gesture of his hand and his force shields he was able to casually stone wall arcanns most ferotious lightsaber strikes and toy with him .
he subdued outlander , vaylin and arcann at the same time , he drained a planet of all life  .

KF vader is equal or close in raw power but he lacks discipline and knowledge of various force techniques to compete with valk .
KFV is much superior in sabers but valk could just stone wall vaders best attacks without even using a lightsaber himself .
KFV would have to experience some close to onnes boost to beat valk which i don´t see happening in a random fight .

unchained vaylin (since you stated all are in their prime) just solidifies the victory here ,
since revan would have his hands full trying to deal with her and probably would fail to do so .

Valkorion vs. Knightfall Vader is a pretty tricky fight. They're both at the absolute top, but Valk in direct Force usage, pure Force attacks, mental, Lightning, telekinesis, while Anakin honestly has only telekinesis of a top caliber, and everything else is being an unstoppable beast in any sort of direct combat. Valk could potentially down Knightfall Anakin simply because he's a kind of opponent Anakin never saw before. Anakin has the raw power and speed to tank nearly everything Valkorion can throw at him, but Anakin never met somebody who does purely the Force assault. Honestly though, I would give higher chances for Anakin to push through, and as soon as it gets to close quarters, Valkorion is done. Merely swining the lightsaber is infinitely easier and less taxing than putting up a Force barrier/absorbing the energy, and at Anakin's speeds where it reaches thousands of strikes per minute it's just way too much and Valk will slip in the end without a doubt.

Valkorion vs. Revan is... Well, we already saw this. There seems to be parity in how much Vitiate has ascended since the Revan novel, and Revan in the book was equally very hindered and weak and went a rather clear growth. I wouldn't call any of that growing speeds outpacing the other, so we have a simple repetition of already known thing.

Vaylin falls to Knightfall Vader; her raw power is below Anakin, and while Anakin can only tank it, that's all needed, in close quarters Vaylin goes down. Anakin is outmatched in direct Force contest, he has more raw power, far more, but also far less skill in such direct Force fights. He can survive, though, and as a combatant he makes Vaylin an absolute joke.

Vaylin vs. Revan is pretty similar.

In the end? If we have Revan vs. Vaylin & Vader vs. Valkorion - team 1 wins all the time. If it's the opposite - either way.

I’d disagree. While KFV is pretty much at the top, and I honestly hold Revan as his equal, or mild inferior (so Revan either splits or takes 4/10). Valk is just at a level that can devastate the two. Vaylin gives either difficulty, but not that much. But Valk has this pure force dominance over Vader and Revan that is frankly undeniable. He’s able to casually oneshot a Malgus+ level opponent, and ragdoll an unchained Vaylin, Outlander, and Arcann at the same time as a spirit. I doubt that Revan and KFV can defeat him. Valk solos low-mid diff. His pure force dominance is something KFV has never seen before, and will be hard pressed to counter, Anakin can likely handle the TK and Lightning aspects of the assault with difficulty, but Valk’s TP, combined with his immunity to sabers at this stage, gives him a massive edge. Revan will likely be able to counter Valk’s kind of assault better, but barely.

He’s able to casually oneshot a Malgus+ level opponent, and ragdoll an unchained Vaylin, Outlander, and Arcann at the same time as a spirit.

This was a fight within Outlander's mind&body. I wouldn't hold it a demonstration of anything, honestly. It was a fight of consumed spirits, too. Vaylin was a spirit that got absorbed into Valkorion, then Valkorion spirit fought inside the mind of the Outlander. It's impossible to use that as a quantification. Valkorion was ragdolling a part of himself so to speak.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:I’d disagree. While KFV is pretty much at the top, and I honestly hold Revan as his equal, or mild inferior (so Revan either splits or takes 4/10). Valk is just at a level that can devastate the two. Vaylin gives either difficulty, but not that much. But Valk has this pure force dominance over Vader and Revan that is frankly undeniable. He’s able to casually oneshot a Malgus+ level opponent, and ragdoll an unchained Vaylin, Outlander, and Arcann at the same time as a spirit. I doubt that Revan and KFV can defeat him. Valk solos low-mid diff. His pure force dominance is something KFV has never seen before, and will be hard pressed to counter, Anakin can likely handle the TK and Lightning aspects of the assault with difficulty, but Valk’s TP, combined with his immunity to sabers at this stage, gives him a massive edge. Revan will likely be able to counter Valk’s kind of assault better, but barely.

 You're assuming KFV is outclassed in the force due to what I'm assuming is his lack of force feats. However due to his jedi training he mostly expresses his power internally into augmentation and force defenses. While Valk's force barriers may have been able to resist Arcann's lightsaber attacks that doesn't mean he would be able to do so against Vader. A lightsaber is no different from any other weapon. It's penetrative capabilities depend on the velocity with which it is swung. Since KFV dwarfs Arcann in applicable power in the force, his augmentation is also much much greater. This means Vader will be striking Valk's barrier with his lightsaber at a much higher velocity and with much greater force than Arcann did. Meaning Vader may succeed in breaking Valk's barrier where Arcann failed. Valk's TP is a wildcard though.

Bart wrote:

He’s able to casually oneshot a Malgus+ level opponent, and ragdoll an unchained Vaylin, Outlander, and Arcann at the same time as a spirit.

This was a fight within Outlander's mind&body. I wouldn't hold it a demonstration of anything, honestly. It was a fight of consumed spirits, too. Vaylin was a spirit that got absorbed into Valkorion, then Valkorion spirit fought inside the mind of the Outlander. It's impossible to use that as a quantification. Valkorion was ragdolling a part of himself so to speak.

https://youtu.be/hpcV7IHUrIs?t=120

OT: Valkorion solos. Revan isn't doing anything to Valk if the Outlander or Vaylin were powerless against him. Vaylin is around the same level as KFV but he's better with a saber, which gives him the edge.

You're assuming the Outlander and Vailyn are on Revan's level

KingofBlades wrote:You're assuming the Outlander and Vailyn are on Revan's level

Their feats, accolades and statements surpass his so no, they're actually above him.

Yeah no. Feel free to enlighten me though

KingofBlades wrote:Yeah no. Feel free to enlighten me though

Feats: The Nathema generator feat alone is enough to establish Vaylin (and by scaling the Outlander) above Revan, who lacks any comparable feats. Throw in chained Vaylin scaling above Valkorion who at a fraction of his full power could overpower Arcann and wipe out a small army of Zakuulan knights and skytroopers (with this version of Vaylin being <<< unchained Vaylin), and she's clearly above him. Valkorion also apparently considers Vaylin to be a greater threat to him than Revan ever was.
Accolades: Considered by Valkorion to be his possible equal years before her prime and while he was in his SWTOR iteration, considered by Arcann to be nearly invincible, terrified Valkorion the moment she began breaking her conditioning, and so on.

Feats: The Nathema generator feat alone is enough to establish Vaylin (and by scaling the Outlander) above Revan, who lacks any comparable feats.

Actually the I would rate the dark temple feat accomplished by a horrendously weakened spirit Vitiate to be above this feat, a Vitiate who Revan scales massively over.

 Throw in chained Vaylin scaling above Valkorion who at a fraction of his full power could overpower Arcann and wipe out a small army of Zakuulan knights and skytroopers (with this version of Vaylin being <<< unchained Vaylin), and she's clearly above him.

And how exactly does this put Vailyn over Revan? Revan would've stomped the strike team on the forgotten terrace were it not for Light Revan's intervention. While you might not think this is impressive compared to Vailyn's scaling chains, it should be noted that Revan had to conserve energy for the ritual that was intended to bring Vitiate back to a physical form and to actually fight Vitiate himself. So in all likelihood Revan was capable of stomping the strike team while using only a small fraction of his power. This is easily a Vailyn level feat when you consider the circumstances.

 Valkorion also apparently considers Vaylin to be a greater threat to him than Revan ever was.
Accolades: Considered by Valkorion to be his possible equal years before her prime and while he was in his SWTOR iteration

Citation needed.

terrified Valkorion the moment she began breaking her conditioning, and so on.

Since Valkorion is capable of hiding his presence from anyone whenever he chooses, I highly doubt the fear he was feeling was fear for his own life. Rather since his plans hinge on him slowly increasing the Outlander's potential while hollowing out his mind for the purpose of essence transferring into his body, Vailyn becoming unchained poses a large threat to his plan, not Valk himself. If the Outlander wasn't at a point where he could channel Valk's power fully, then if the scenario occured where Vailyn were to fight the Outlander, then Valk wouldn't be able to ensure victory via channeling his power through the Outlander. Basically, he was afraid of Vailyn killing the Outlander before he developed to the point that he was ready for essence transfer.

There's also Revan being laughably superior in terms of force mastery and skill to consider.

KoB ragdolling.

Actually the I would rate the dark temple feat accomplished by a horrendously weakened spirit Vitiate to be above this feat, a Vitiate who Revan scales massively over.

How does he scale over this Vitiate? And the Dark Temple is hard to judge, since it took place on a dark side nexus and appeared to be a chain reaction since the room fell apart but the ground floor was still intact. The HoT even had time to take out 3 dark honour guards (who were a considerable challenge for the likes of novel Revan, Meetra and Scourge) and some other forces who tried to stop him before escaping. 

And how exactly does this put Vailyn over Revan? Revan would've stomped the strike team on the forgotten terrace were it not for Light Revan's intervention. While you might not think this is impressive compared to Vailyn's scaling chains, it should be noted that Revan had to conserve energy for the ritual that was intended to bring Vitiate back to a physical form and to actually fight Vitiate himself. So in all likelihood Revan was capable of stomping the strike team while using only a small fraction of his power.

Which is pure speculation based on absolutely nothing. It was fairly clear that Revan was pissed off and going all-out to dispatch all of them as they were the only remaining threat to him. Not to mention that even if that were true the HoT would also have been exhausted from days of fighting, as would other members of the strike team. 

This is easily a Vailyn level feat when you consider the circumstances.

If he were conserving his energy and wasn't benefiting from a dark side nexus, then sure. 

Citation needed.

Spoiler:

Even as a child (about 10 years old), Valkorion feels her immense strength when he's as of SWTOR and believes that even as of such an early period she has the power to challenge him. 

Since Valkorion is capable of hiding his presence from anyone whenever he chooses, I highly doubt the fear he was feeling was fear for his own life.

He was holding his head in pain and staggering around when she started. He was absolutely scared for his own life. And no, he can't hide his presence from anyone. Satele, Marr and Lana could all sense hints of his presence, albeit with great difficulty. 

If the Outlander wasn't at a point where he could channel Valk's power fully, then if the scenario occured where Vailyn were to fight the Outlander, then Valk wouldn't be able to ensure victory via channeling his power through the Outlander. Basically, he was afraid of Vailyn killing the Outlander before he developed to the point that he was ready for essence transfer.

Spirit Valkorion was inferior to chained Vaylin who's <<< unchained Vaylin, and that's without Nathema sapping his strength. The Outlander at this point was the only one who could go toe to toe with Vaylin in raw power and stand a chance of winning.

There's also Revan being laughably superior in terms of force mastery and skill to consider.

He's 100% superior in mastery and would win more often than not due to the mastery disparity being considerably larger than the noteworthy power disparity, but skill? Pre-KOTET chained Vaylin has gone toe to toe with Senya and pushed her considerably, and her KOTET chained iteration has gone toe to toe with both Arcann and an admittedly massively pre-prime Outlander in sabers. She's also effortlessly slaughtered three mutated Acklay at once while powerless on Nathema and with a mix of power and skill slaughtered dozens of Zakuulan knights. I actually have her pretty far up in my TOR lightsaber skill rankings. His experience and feats against other impressive opponents put him above her, but not by a "laughable" gap.

I'll reply to any counters when I get Wi-Fi (shoot me).

It was fairly clear that Revan was pissed off and going all-out to dispatch all of them as they were the only remaining threat to him. 

Not true. Revan deliberately pins them to a wall and tries to "slowly" kill them rather than going for a quick dispatch.

Not to mention that even if that were true the HoT would also have been exhausted from days of fighting, as would other members of the strike team. 

Not true. The Hero warns the team that they all need to be at full strength when they confront Revan, the only coalition team member that fights previously is the Hero, and Revan should obviously be more damaged than him (given he just lost a previous fight against a huge strike team minutes/hours prior).

How does he scale over this Vitiate? And the Dark Temple is hard to judge, since it took place on a dark side nexus and appeared to be a chain reaction since the room fell apart but the ground floor was still intact. The HoT even had time to take out 3 dark honour guards (who were a considerable challenge for the likes of novel Revan, Meetra and Scourge) and some other forces who tried to stop him before escaping. 

Since Revan was capable of stomping a more powerful version of the HoT in SoR. SoR Revan>>>>>SoR HoT>Act 3 HoT>weakened Act 3 spirit Vitiate who performed the Dark Temple feat. The nexus isn't making up for just how absurdly weakened Vitiate was when he performed the feat. 

Which is pure speculation based on absolutely nothing. It was fairly clear that Revan was pissed off and going all-out to dispatch all of them as they were the only remaining threat to him. Not to mention that even if that were true the HoT would also have been exhausted from days of fighting, as would other members of the strike team. 

If Revan were to go all out then it would risk using up too much energy for the main event(i.e Vitiate). You don't sprint the first mile of a marathon when you know you still have 25 miles to go. Considering Revan is a tactical genius nearly unrivaled in the mythos this simple fact would not have escaped him.

If he were conserving his energy and wasn't benefiting from a dark side nexus, then sure. 

Lol the nexus while present, is negligible next to the stomp gap between the strike team and even a fraction of Revan's power

Even as a child, Vaylin showed signs of tremendous power. Fearing she would one day challenge him, Valkorion imprisoned his daughter while he sought limits and controls on her power.

Bravo, Vaiylin's latent potential rivals Valkorion's. That doesn't mean she had come close to realizing her full power by the end of KotET. So while Vailyn would present a greater threat to Valk than Revan if she reached her full potential, that doesn't mean she had done so by KotET.

Spirit Valkorion was inferior to chained Vaylin who's <<< unchained Vaylin, and that's without Nathema sapping his strength. The Outlander at this point was the only one who could go toe to toe with Vaylin in raw power and stand a chance of winning.

Yet the risk of the Outlander's death is still great, which puts Valk's ultimate plan of essence transfering into the Outlander at risk. Which would be the main sense of fear he would be feeling. since he could bugger off whenever he likes as a spirit. Either way Vailyn being superior to spirit Valk is not evidence that she was superior in power to Revan, who showed a degree of comparability to Physical SWTOR Vitiate.

BreakofDawn wrote:

Bart wrote:

He’s able to casually oneshot a Malgus+ level opponent, and ragdoll an unchained Vaylin, Outlander, and Arcann at the same time as a spirit.

This was a fight within Outlander's mind&body. I wouldn't hold it a demonstration of anything, honestly. It was a fight of consumed spirits, too. Vaylin was a spirit that got absorbed into Valkorion, then Valkorion spirit fought inside the mind of the Outlander. It's impossible to use that as a quantification. Valkorion was ragdolling a part of himself so to speak.

https://youtu.be/hpcV7IHUrIs?t=120

OT: Valkorion solos. Revan isn't doing anything to Valk if the Outlander or Vaylin were powerless against him. Vaylin is around the same level as KFV but he's better with a saber, which gives him the edge.

But... This fight is exactly what I meant...?

Team 2, Valkorion MVP.

Someone has already pointed out that Valkorion is unlike any enemy Vader has ever faced. Greater power, skill and versatility. 

Vaylin is insanely powerful. I would go so far as to say that she's more powerful than the Outlander. However, she fights extremely dumb. Take a look at her final stand against Outlander, Arcann and Senya:


As we can see her Force Maelstrom was powerful enough to one-shot Arcann and Senya, and Outlander had a visable difficulties powering through maelstorm to reach Vaylin. The thing is, she lost at her own wish. Instead of releasing her power in a form of omnidirectional Force Maelstrom, why didn't she focus her power and release it directly on Outlander?

Prime Vaylin has more raw power than Revan, but she lacks skills, focus and "the purity of will to direct it". KF Vader has power necessary to face her, and his superiority as a swordsman is unquestionable. 

KingofBlades:

If he were conserving his energy and wasn't benefiting from a dark side nexus, then sure. 

Lol the nexus while present, is negligible next to the stomp gap between the strike team and even a fraction of Revan's power

That's ignoring the fact that the strike team's darksiders (Marr, Lana and possibly the Outlander) would be double amped by the virtue of Yavin's nexus AND Satele's Battle Meditation.

Will get back to your counter sometime later KoB, but I have just enough time to highlight this:

But... This fight is exactly what I meant...? 

You...meant Valkorion as a ghost physically ragdolling the Outlander in real time?

 The thing is, she lost at her own wish. Instead of releasing her power in a form of omnidirectional Force Maelstrom, why didn't she focus her power and release it directly on Outlander?

She did.

Lol the nexus while present, is negligible next to the stomp gap between the strike team and even a fraction of Revan's power

That's ignoring the fact that the strike team's darksiders (Marr, Lana and possibly the Outlander) would be double amped by the virtue of Yavin's nexus AND Satele's Battle Meditation.

That wasn't my point.

WalkingInCircles wrote:

 The thing is, she lost at her own wish. Instead of releasing her power in a form of omnidirectional Force Maelstrom, why didn't she focus her power and release it directly on Outlander?

She did.

...

THIS is how you focus your power and release it directly on the enemy:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873517-2305538999-R5p5Q.gif

THIS is not:
https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5757797-1893750186-JL1OP.gif

Gaunter O'Dimm wrote:

WalkingInCircles wrote:

 The thing is, she lost at her own wish. Instead of releasing her power in a form of omnidirectional Force Maelstrom, why didn't she focus her power and release it directly on Outlander?

She did.

...

THIS is how you focus your power and release it directly on the enemy:
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/4873517-2305538999-R5p5Q.gif

THIS is not:
https://static5.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11113/111138626/5757797-1893750186-JL1OP.gif

You understand that those pictures are showing Vaylin amping up the power in front of her (evidenced by the increase in the rippling energy flowing in front of her and throughout the shield) as the Outlander draws closer, correct? Not only that, but her desperate sounds throughout the video, the enhanced gusts of Force enhanced wind flowing towards them and the Outlander's increasing struggle to step through all indicate that she was rapidly amping up the power directed at the Outlander.