Legends Darth Vader Wank Thread

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

This is a thread dedicated to discussing and creating arguments that raise the opinion of Darth Vader on the forums.

[GuestGuest]

He beat ESB Luke...

[DarthAnt66Moderator]

He beat ESB Luke...

And there's perhaps some credible scaling that ESB Luke is already better than ANH Ben. We should look into that more.

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

I mean Vader's ceiling is more or less fleshed out. He's below Ben Kenobi in force power in ANH with no sources claiming he experiences any significant growth by RotJ(with the exception of fightsaber, but that also says he's below AotC Anakin iirc, so not a ringing endorsement). I'm wiling to believe he may have been able to bridge the gap between Ben and himself in force power by RotJ, but I think that's being generous.

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

Yeah, competing with ESB Luke is a pretty good feat for Vader imo.

When they fought, [Vader] had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.

The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

Vader smiled into the darkness surrounding him. Obi-Wan had not told Luke that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. Luke's anger at the man who had slain his teacher had been potent, had allowed the dark side to claim him. If Vader hadn't broken that anger with fear and confusion by telling the boy he was his father, Luke could have defeated him.

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

Yeah, competing with ESB Luke is a pretty good feat for Vader imo.

When they fought, [Vader] had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand.

The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.

Vader smiled into the darkness surrounding him. Obi-Wan had not told Luke that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. Luke's anger at the man who had slain his teacher had been potent, had allowed the dark side to claim him. If Vader hadn't broken that anger with fear and confusion by telling the boy he was his father, Luke could have defeated him.

What reference point are you using to say competing with ESB Luke is a good feat for Vader? The only one I know about is the GL quote which places Luke significantly below Ben in force power. So Vader competing with Luke would be an anti feat. Any pro vader argument should look to place Vader as far away from Luke as possible imo.

[O-Siri]

He's a clusterfuck when it comes to quotes. 

My current position is that he was at the peak in his suit between 19-17 BBY. He's faster than a version of RotS Kenobi who is only at best a little bit post-prime if even at all. He was still young and ambitious. He was trying to reawaken his Sith potential and thus hungry and highly motivated. And he was very active in hunting down surviving Jedi.

By ANH he could very well have declined to do to stagnation and lack of motivation. After nearly two decades he could have hit a plateau and came to the cold hard realization he could never overthrow his master. Age could also have robbed him of his youthful energy and desire to improve himself. It's speculation yeah but it would explain why he was only a little bit better than ANH Kenobi whereas two decades ago he was faster than a Kenobi much closer to his prime. Everyone always assumes an upward scale with time when in reality there are always peaks and valleys in a fighter's career. 

After discovering the existence of Luke, his ambition reemerged, this would have lighted the fire inside and his desire to improve and overthrow the Emporer. Him being "far more formidable" by Empire Strikes Back is suddenly more believable. That said the growth is unquantifiable and I still think early suit Vader by feats is the best incarnation.

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

Citation for 19 BBY Vader being faster than RotS Kenobi?

[O-Siri]

Citation for 19 BBY Vader being faster than RotS Kenobi?

18 BBY Vader actually:

It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd(Ferus) seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.

Ferus Olin has seen a lot of fast Jedi. He's seen Soara Antana who has moved faster than 27 BBY Kenobi and Siri. He's seen Anakin perform his "great masters" speed feat in School of Fear. He's most likely seen Mace Windu in combat in The Changing of the Guard. And he's fought alongside 18 BBY Kenobi against Boba Fett in Dark Warning, just one year after RotS.

[HeartoftheForceLevel Two]

Oh look. Another thread that can be oneshot by a GL quote

[PraxisModerator | Champion of the Light]

What reference point are you using to say competing with ESB Luke is a good feat for Vader? The only one I know about is the GL quote which places Luke significantly below Ben in force power. So Vader competing with Luke would be an anti feat. Any pro vader argument should look to place Vader as far away from Luke as possible imo.

It is what it is, and it’s not what it’s not.

[MasterCilghalLevel Three]

Him being more powerful than a guy who can one-shot inquisitors seems pretty good: 

First the feat itself: 

Kaj turned and raised his hands, delivering a massive Force-push from every angle against the Inquisitor. One moment the Inquisitor was falling toward Laranth, power streaming from his hands—the next he was simply gone. Where he had been there was only a fine swirl of ash. In seconds it, too, was gone, tugged apart by the air currents above the street.

Then Vader’s accolade by 18bby, in the following book. Note that it is confirmed by two characters, both of whom have witnessed Kaj’s feat: 

I’ve never known a Force-user as powerful as Vader,” he admitted. “Which only makes it more critical that we rescue Yimmon.”
--
Not only was Darth Vader the most powerful Force-user Tesla had ever known, he had always thought of him as a towering genius.
-the last jedi 

[IGLevel Four]

Vader > Vastor > Windu

[MasterCilghalLevel Three]

Vader > Vastor > Windu

Holistically, Vastor is meant to be stronger than Windu, however Vader being far more powerful than him is questionable as it comes from the point of view of a guy who had a feeble force connection and no formal jedi training whatsoever.

[IGLevel Four]

That’s a fair argument. I think that 19-16 BBY would’ve been Vader’s suited prime tbh. He has far more impressive accolades then, as compared to the OT.

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

If I had a reliable WiFi connection I'd give some feats but I can barely load Google right now.

[HellfireUnitLevel Six]

@DarthAnt66 I guess this is a thread to help me :P

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

Wait, which aspect of Vader are we posting stuff for? TP? Lightsaber skill? TK?

[KingofBladesLevel Three]

Everything

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

Ones that I have on hand:

TP

Ripped information from the mind of a genius (the man behind the Death Star array) despite the man's best attempts to resist him, 

Drained Luke's mind of the knowledge that Leia is his daughter despite Luke trying to resist.

Reached across to Birra Seah with the Force from somewhere else in the Endor system. 

Tried to Facetime Luke from his meditation chamber on the Executor (which IIRC doesn't do anything other than allow him to survive without his helmet) and nearly succeeded while the other was on Tatooine and in intense concentration. 

TK

Brought down a cathedral big enough to house a labyrinth.

Shattered a stormtrooper's armour. 

Crushed a TIE fighter in motion and throw it as a projectile. 

Effortlessly throw platforms while engaged in an intense duel with SK. 

Sent SK flying across a platform.

Seized SK in a Force choke more than once. 

Ragdolled Celeste Morne. 

Threw around platforms on Kashyyyk. 

Melted durasteel. 

Destroyed everything in the Jedi Council Chamber while enraged. 

More or less ragdolled Jax Pavan. 

Brought down a huge (albeit damaged tree - about half of it was cut away by his lightsaber so he still had to crush and then bring down the actual tree) to crush the Dark Woman.

Ragdolled dozens of stormtroopers with a Force wave (that didn't work like a domino effect as it launched them into the air rather than just backwards).

Ragdolled clones of SK. 

Manipulated the strike of an exhausted but rapidly recovering SK's lightsaber.

Ragdolled three Jedi.

Held Tsui Choi in place with the Force despite the latter quickly becoming aware of this and was still unable to free himself. All of this happened while Vader was heavily wounded. 

Ragdolled Kento Marek. 

Ragdolled Sha Koon.


Lightsaber skill


Held the upper hand against Ben Kenobi despite holding back.

Was described as having impenetrable defences by SK, who deemed a surrender to be the only way to avoid a stalemate.

Outmatched the Dark Woman.

Toyed with Celeste Morne.

Outmatched ESB Luke.

Held the upper hand against base ROTJ Luke, though was clearly outmatched by him when Luke became enraged (see film for reference).

Held his own against 4 Jedi at once then killed one as he ragdolled the other three. 

Blitzes Roan Lands before Ferus Olin can react.

Speedblitzed and stomped a Jedi knight shortly after Mustafar.

Credited with having "unparalleled" lightsaber skills in the context of TFU II.

Bested and disarmed the Dark Apprentice.

Almost killed SK before the latter used lightning.

Defeated a Jedi master with low difficulty despite the master having a considerable amount of time to gather his strength.



Other


Hid his presence from the Emperor.

His mere presence heavily strained Ben Kenobi.




Obviously there are a lot more but I don't have them all to hand right now. I'll add them when I get a better Wi-Fi connection, along with rough timestamps for each of the above feats.

[GuestGuest]

Some of those aren't true and you know it.

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

Some of those aren't true and you know it.

Not in the mood to deal with wishy-washy pedantic time measurements again so check them at the door. The only ones you're looking at and claiming aren't true are the Ben and SK ones, and the latter one is only because you refuse to consider the idea that SK could have recovered most of his strength pretty quickly.

[GuestGuest]

Nah, I disagree with this as well:

Held the upper hand against base ROTJ Luke, though was clearly outmatched by him when Luke became enraged (see film for reference).

[GuestGuest]

Also, you were the one who brought up the time gaps, and it was perhaps the least relevant part of the discussion (literally just a singular point).

[BreakofDawnLevel Seven]

Nah, I disagree with this as well:

Held the upper hand against base ROTJ Luke, though was clearly outmatched by him when Luke became enraged (see film for reference).

Gets kicked down the stairs by pissed off Luke, walks up the stairs then forces a calmed down Luke onto the defensive to the point that he retreats to a balcony to gain distance. 

https://youtu.be/jDs2UGCP2Fk?t=58

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