Dooku vs Revan: who’s the more naturally gifted?

Meetra and Scourge felt Nyriss' power prior to her super-charge, during her super-charge, and after her super-charge. Ergo, Meetra and Scourge are well aware of her power-level as the super-charged lightning tore through her. Despite that knowledge, the duo still interpreted Revan's performance as "easily besting" and "destroying" Nyriss in general terms, and they even extrapolated off this fight to guess how Revan might fare against Vitiate. So, either Nyriss wasn't significantly fatigued (or else that would have negatively factored into their calculus), the unprecedented disparity between Revan and Nyriss far outstripped any alleged fatigue effects, or both. 

By the looks of it, you seem to agree to all of this and emphasize you're not denying Revan is far above Nyriss. Though, why are you arguing with me then? You haven't given the slightest whiff of what you actually disagree with. All you have implied is that, if Nyriss is somewhat fatigued, this feat is within the realm of Dooku versus Asajj. I don't see why Nyriss' fatigue has any relevance to that comparison unless you're disputing if Revan could replicate the ashing if she is at full power. If so, then why didn't you address my other points concerning that (e.g. Revan handling it easily), and why did you say, "Revan would've destroyed her even at her full power"? 

And that's not even the strangest part. I prefaced my Revan/Nyriss comparison saying this is "a general case for Revan's power" because "some members seem doubtful he's even near Dooku." Ergo, I never asserted that feat puts Revan above Dooku. In fact, I regard novel Revan roughly with Dooku. Yet, like, half of your post relates to how this or that doesn't definitively prove Revan is superior to Dooku. Given all that, It's hard not to chalk bad intentions to whatever you're doing here.

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That the absence of an author mentioning a reasonable variable means it doesn't matter to us?

Did Stover or Gillard mention that Anakin was holding back against the magnaguards? Should we scale post-Zone Anakin below Shaak Ti?

You don't always mention every possible variable in every narration. 

This is a gross mischaracterization of my argument. The author not mentioning an allegedly significant variable is relevant, but I never asserted that as proof Nyriss was not fatigued. However, coupled with Meetra and Scourge's assessment on the situation, your "isn't it possible..." question is met with a fat "no".  

FYI, Gillard and other sources highlight how Anakin no longer even cares and abandons basic fighting rules because he knows he will win anyway.

Yes it does. We say it's 1-1 in the sense that it's 1-1 to their relative power in the Force, but if Palpatine's FL is disproportionate to his Force abilities as you think it is, then it would not have been 1-1 if it were an equivalently powerful Sith Lord without the disproportionate lightning.

You didn't even respond to my "most powerful Jedi Masters" point. 

Anyway, no, that has no bearing to my point or Revan vs. Nyriss. That just means either Yoda's better at telekinesis than Palpatine (which has some backing given Yoda arguably has superior Force augmentation), or his tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's lightning and not his telekinesis (also plausible).

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But not this one, presumably because it's less feasible to block really wide lightning with a lightsaber. Couldn't Vitiate just do what Palpatine does to Yoda in RotS?

Sorry but do you have a point here?

You're referring to the sabers vs. Force blitzing? So the ratio changes at the top tiers? Based on what? I gave examples (others would be Luke vs. Caedus, Anakin vs. Obi Wan, Sidious vs. DE Luke and Sidious vs. Windu); if you want to argue that this is different for the B-team tier, that's on you.

I said you haven't provided any valid examples of near-blitzing, and the only examples I could think of didn't help your point. No clue what you're on about.

As I'm sure you know, the ones Shaak Ti fought were Grievous's personal elite, and the magnaguards overall were improving over the course of the war. 

Nadar Vebb's kills were also Grievous' personal elite, and there's no indication whatsoever that those magnaguards participated in earlier engagements. Quite the contrary, actually, if you consider Ti's difficulty with the two earlier magnaguards and how many of the bulk group stood motionless (literally) after she went all unorthodox.

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Funny how you were earlier denying that Nyriss could've been tired because Drew didn't bother to mention it, but are now claiming that there's some mechanism regarding raw vs. actualized power that wasn't ever brought up in any of the feats in question.

Funny how I've argued this mechanism based on the raw source material long before I found the quote validating it. Though, I have no interest in quadrupling the size of this post and diving into Marek's unique properties or how that relates to Vader. Complex and controversial subjects like that are best left for an SS.

If anything, Revan's tutanimus feat could've much more plausibly been the result of him gathering energies than the aforementioned of Galen's, which would fit examples of energy absorption being linked to raw power like Anakin's theta storm feat (and that Revan was gathering his power vs. Vitiate's and had an undetermined amount of time to do so vs. Nyriss). Not saying that's the case - but going by your logic for dismissing Galen scaling, it kind of would be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

I have so many issues with this. To make it short though, Revan never gathered his energies, and Anakin never absorbed the theta storm. 

I think you realize how damaging this Vader position is for TOR as a whole, which is why you will periodically argue for "Vader is sub/low tier 7" and then change your mind whenever its implications for scaling are noted.

No. You have consistently tried to scare me away from this line of thinking by screaming, "But imagine the scaling," and I have consistently replied with, "I'm not worried about the scaling because I don't think Vader scales from Marek whatsoever." 

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Nyriss attacks both of them in melee for an undetermined amount of time, eventually forcing Scourge (probably the inferior combatant) aside.

Nyriss literally jumps in the middle of the two combatants.

We aren't told how Meetra is doing during this segment except that Scourge is himself on the defensive.

"Her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive."

Nyriss attacks Meetra, who manages to "hold her ground" but gets forced to one knee. She's about to land a critical blow, but Scourge saves her.

Nyriss is about to land a critical blow in the time it took Scourge to recover from a stumble. That's like, a second or two at best.

DarthAnt66 wrote:I don't see why Nyriss' fatigue has any relevance to that comparison unless you're disputing if Revan could replicate the ashing if she is at full power.

It has relevance to the comparison; that doesn't mean it has relevance to your particular position, or that I'm only allowed to say things that relate to you.

My initial post was "isn't it possible that X mitigating factor exists? Even so, it doesn't mean he couldn't do it because he didn't exert much effort". Had Nyriss been given more time to prepare her defenses, Revan still would have demolished her but it would've probably taken him more effort. The amount of effort one puts into a feat is a valid point of contention, so my observation was substantive. It isn't an all or nothing "either he can do it or he can't". The comment wasn't mutually exclusive from your position (which it never claimed to be) since, again, it noted that it doesn't prevent the feat from being impressive. It just added potential mitigating factors.

Not every comment someone jumping into a thread makes has to be intended to 100% disprove what a particular poster was saying; by that same logic, your own initial musings wouldn't even establish Revan > Dooku anyway, so "what's your point"?

And that's not even the strangest part. I prefaced my Revan/Nyriss comparison saying this is "a general case for Revan's power" because "some members seem doubtful he's even near Dooku." Ergo, I never asserted that feat puts Revan above Dooku. In fact, I regard novel Revan roughly with Dooku. Yet, like, half of your post relates to how this or that doesn't definitively prove Revan is superior to Dooku. Given all that, It's hard not to chalk bad intentions to whatever you're doing here.

I was explicitly replying to Valkorion there. Indeed, the point of the Revan/Nyriss comparison, as I clarified to you, was to contest the claim that this scaling chain puts him above Dooku. Again, I don't know why you think it's "bad intentions" that not everyone's post has to do with you, especially when you're the one who contested me.

This is a gross mischaracterization of my argument. The author not mentioning an allegedly significant variable is relevant, but I never asserted that as proof Nyriss was not fatigued. However, coupled with Meetra and Scourge's assessment on the situation, your "isn't it possible..." question is met with a fat "no".  

Meetra and Scourge's positions don't contradict mine at all though. We both think that Revan did/could easily defeat Nyriss. They aren't in-universe vs. debaters who would go out of their way to qualify every possible variable that wouldn't have changed the outcome of the fight except for people who are constructing scaling chains where the difference between oneshotting and oneshotting someone who oneshots is meaningful.

You didn't even respond to my "most powerful Jedi Masters" point. 

That doesn't establish or imply a 1-1 relationship. If it only takes like 30% to deflect TK by some ratio, lightning could be 70% and the comment would still hold. If you're going to respond by saying that you aren't arguing for a 1-1 relationship (though you kind of have been), then I don't know why you're contesting my point; I just used it as a corollary to a point that I was making that it doesn't necessarily take as much to deflect it as to generate it. Whether you personally contested it wasn't a part of my initial analysis.

Anyway, no, that has no bearing to my point or Revan vs. Nyriss. That just means either Yoda's better at telekinesis than Palpatine (which has some backing given Yoda arguably has superior Force augmentation), or his tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's lightning and not his telekinesis (also plausible).

So we know that:

1. Yoda and Sidious are 1-1 in overall power, per multiple sources
2. Yoda's tutanimus and Sidious' lightning are 1-1, according to you
3. Sidious's lightning is disproportionate to his overall power

Points 2 and 3 contradict each other.

I suspect what you really mean is that when you had confided with me that his lightning is disproportionate to his power, you really meant that it is disproportionate to his TK. That's odd, since you were trying to use TK as a proxy for power (instead of just averaging things out to power...?). But if the exact proportions vary by as much as you claim, e.g. Sidious's lightning being something like 133% of his TK, then you also can't be certain that the 1-1 tutanimus vs lightning proves anything exact because Yoda's tutanimus is likely not 100% equal to his power anyway, and then your entire point becomes nihilistic.

Do you have a point here?

I asked you whether Vitiate could overwhelm Revan right away with lightning per your 1-1 claim; you said Revan had a lightsaber; I replied with what you were quoting. Are you going to reply, or do you concede?

I said you haven't provided any valid examples of near-blitzing, and the only examples I could think of didn't help your point. No clue what you're on about.

I provided examples of gaps being smaller in sabers than Force, which you are saying "don't help my point" because they're "high tiers" without any elaboration. As for not having many examples of blitzing in sabers, that's kind of my point?

Nadar Vebb's kills were also Grievous' personal elite, and there's no indication whatsoever that those magnaguards participated in earlier engagements. Quite the contrary, actually, if you consider Ti's difficulty with the two earlier magnaguards and how many of the bulk group stood motionless (literally) after she went all unorthodox.

You still haven't established how you're scaling Traya, KotORII masters, Nadar, Shaak Ti, and magnaguards across eras. How do you know Traya could defeat Shaak Ti, or even Nadar Vebb? Their respective feats are completely circular within their own eras.

You can try to argue that the Jedi masters are higher ranked within KotORII than Shaak Ti or Nadar are within the PT, but this makes a massive assumption that there's parity between the two Jedi Orders. Just lining up the most potent Jedi of both eras...

Yoda, Anakin, Mace Windu, Obi Wan vs...

Illustrates that. You can try to argue that KotORII's order isn't as top heavy but the distribution is closer once you go below the top 5, but the burden would then be on you to establish that, because in the absence of other evidence such a massive difference in abilities among the top players makes it pretty likely that one power pool is way more potent than the other.

And if your response is that you don't think that scaling puts novel Revan above Dooku, then we don't disagree.

Funny how I've argued this mechanism based on the raw source material long before I found the quote validating it. Though, I have no interest in quadrupling the size of this post and diving into Marek's unique properties or how that relates to Vader. Complex and controversial subjects like that are best left for an SS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss2hULhXf04

I have so many issues with this. To make it short though, Revan never gathered his energies, and Anakin never absorbed the theta storm. 

?? How do you know Revan didn't gather his energies? If it's just a lack of evidence, then there's also a lack of evidence for Galen gathering his energies in the aforementioned feat, so what's your point?

You see, you might have a general idea going for you when you talk about how raw power plays into different scenarios unevenly. The problem is that you try to use it to blanket dismiss feats that have no relation to those circumstances at all. Galen Marek throwing out a Force push without any particular charging time or special mental state isn't somehow distinct from Galen Marek Force pushing Vader. Likewise, if Galen draws on his raw power by charging it for 3 seconds, in cases where we see him charging his power for 3 seconds to attack Kota, Vader, etc., you cannot pretend that they're magically completely separate. You also have to wonder whether this would apply to almost all of Revan's feats, since they're almost exclusively not in-the-moment uncharged combat attacks, but rather cases like holding his body together, his antics as a Sith, his blasting of the strike team (with a clearly charged attack), etc. So if you can look at the specific feats of Galen and show that they're circumstantial, that's one thing. Trying to blanket apply your principle to every feat doesn't work.

(That's to say nothing of something like SF Malak scaling, where Malak had an absolutely enormous fountain of raw power...)

It lowkey seems like your real desire is to say that raw power disproportionately affects environmental feats in general regardless of other factors like charging time. This would make sense...how?

No. You have consistently tried to scare me away from this line of thinking by screaming, "But imagine the scaling," and I have consistently replied with, "I'm not worried about the scaling because I don't think Vader scales from Marek whatsoever." 

And I totally love the specific reasoning you just gave as to why the Marek feat I mentioned doesn't scale to Vader.

Nyriss literally jumps in the middle of the two combatants.

I know. Did I say otherwise?

"Her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive."

And right before that it had noted that by leaping out of the way of her lightning, they put her at an advantage. She capitalized on that advantage by "immediately" putting them both on the defensive. Not sure how that proves anything.

Nyriss is about to land a critical blow in the time it took Scourge to recover from a stumble. That's like, a second or two at best.

She was forced down to one knee while holding her ground (which makes it far harder to last against a superior duelist), likely because of the enclosed area of the prison, thus exposing her right flank. That's hardly an example of Nyriss winning because of uber-Force superiority, but rather that she physically forced Meetra down and then Meetra's lightsaber got in an awkward position. If it were an open field Meetra would not have to "hold her ground".

Azronger wrote:@DarthAnt66 Can you prove the Malachor V nexus is more potent than the Dromund Kaas nexus? If yes, the scaling looks solid.

As an addendum to this, isn't it possible that since Revan's handling of Nyriss is attributed to his "raw power" that it's merely one of those "flashes of brilliance" AotC Anakin has instead of something he can consistently replicate?

@The Ellimist

I'll group your first several responses together since they all fall under my critique that you haven't made any clear argument. 

If you are telling me that, across this thread, you have been merely arguing for the recognition of a variable so irrelevant that you cannot pin any discernible impact it has on the statement "Revan can easily incinerate Darth Nyriss with Force lightning" beyond "easily" not meaning "absolutely effortlessly," then OK. I mean, that's strange, but OK. However, if I'm at all micharacterizing your position here, then please clarify that so we can actually discuss this topic with a clear disagreement in mind.

That doesn't establish or imply a 1-1 relationship. If it only takes like 30% to deflect TK by some ratio, lightning could be 70% and the comment would still hold. If you're going to respond by saying that you aren't arguing for a 1-1 relationship (though you kind of have been), then I don't know why you're contesting my point; I just used it as a corollary to a point that I was making that it doesn't necessarily take as much to deflect it as to generate it. Whether you personally contested it wasn't a part of my initial analysis.

If only the most powerful Jedi Masters can block Force lightning, that's indicative of it actually being disproportionately difficult to absorb Force lightning than to cast it. Assuming two characters are equal, then Force lightning might be 1 and blocking it might require 1.2.

So we know that:

1. Yoda and Sidious are 1-1 in overall power, per multiple sources
2. Yoda's tutanimus and Sidious' lightning are 1-1, according to you
3. Sidious's lightning is disproportionate to his overall power

Points 2 and 3 contradict each other.

Not quite. I've already shown you the junior novel state Palpatine's lightning and Yoda's overloaded the same moment, and I think that's also self-evident from the film. And I've already provided you two explanations: either Yoda's tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's lightning but not his telekinesis (instead just highly correlated with the latter), or Yoda has the edge over Palpatine in telekinesis (similar to how he has the edge over Palpatine in dueling). Note the first option doesn't dismiss my case. If Yoda's a 1 in raw power and 1.1 in tutaminis, and Palpatine's a 1 in raw power and 1.1 in Force lightning, there's still a one-to-one correlation between their chief abilities and a one-to-one correlation between their general power level. There's just not a one-to-one correlation between their chief ability and general power level -- instead just a very high correlation -- but, as I've been saying repeatedly, that's irrelevant to most comparisons between them or whether Yoda/Revan could replicate the Force lightning. Of course, we don't know if Revan's a 1.2 in telekinesis or a 0.8 in Force lightning, so that's why I stressed from the start I'm just advocating for a high correlation.

I asked you whether Vitiate could overwhelm Revan right away with lightning per your 1-1 claim; you said Revan had a lightsaber

Apparently Vitiate judged that tactic non-viable. Perhaps Palpatine took Yoda slightly by surprise.

I provided examples of gaps being smaller in sabers than Force, which you are saying "don't help my point" because they're "high tiers" without any elaboration. As for not having many examples of blitzing in sabers, that's kind of my point?

You're missing my point. You made a theory, gave a few examples to support the general premise, then gave two examples (i.e. Grievous and Ti) over how this fact is relevant to this conversation. Your two examples were wrong though. I said I'll address your general trend when you have a relevant example. 

You still haven't established how you're scaling Traya, KotORII masters, Nadar, Shaak Ti, and magnaguards across eras.

I said to preface my scaling that I'm just using "average Jedi Master" as a standard metric across eras. Of course, you could argue the KOTOR base is actually higher ...

How do you know Revan didn't gather his energies?

Revan hopped in front of the lightning after it already was released. And, as I said in my last post, I won't be getting into the Marek mechanics here. 

I know. Did I say otherwise?

You certainly ignored it. The fact Nyriss can instantly put Scourge and Meetra on the defensive while literally standing in the middle of them, flashing her blade back and forth far faster than either can swing alone is relevant to the discussion of how much more powerful Nyriss is than Meetra. 

And right before that it had noted that by leaping out of the way of her lightning, they put her at an advantage. She capitalized on that advantage by "immediately" putting them both on the defensive. Not sure how that proves anything.

Two key points here:

-- Meetra jumps out of the way from "a bolt" of Nyriss' Force lightning rather than reflect it with her lightsaber, which is nigh-unprecedented.

--The text states Nyriss leaped at them before they could recover, but the text specifically attributes their "immediate" defensiveness to Nyriss' blade rapidly slashing back and forth. Perhaps it's the combination of the two (which is still combat applicable, lol), but it's also true that the duo never regained any advantage despite, again, Nyriss literally standing-in between them. In other words, Nyriss intentionally put herself in a super disadvantageous position and still slapped.

She was forced down to one knee while holding her ground (which makes it far harder to last against a superior duelist), likely because of the enclosed area of the prison, thus exposing her right flank. That's hardly an example of Nyriss winning because of uber-Force superiority, but rather that she physically forced Meetra down and then Meetra's lightsaber got in an awkward position. If it were an open field Meetra would not have to "hold her ground".

Nyriss forcing Meetra to the ground in a second or two isn't indicative of uber superiority? What? And the text makes no mention of close prison walls or whatever.

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As I said in GD, I'll be relatively/entirely inactive this week, so I can't promise when I'll respond. Though, it looks like we've cast aside the haze of confusion over your argument and both seem to be in some agreement over both Revan's feat and how that interplays into the broader scaling chains. 

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Azronger wrote:

Azronger wrote:@DarthAnt66 Can you prove the Malachor V nexus is more potent than the Dromund Kaas nexus? If yes, the scaling looks solid.

As an addendum to this, isn't it possible that since Revan's handling of Nyriss is attributed to his "raw power" that it's merely one of those "flashes of brilliance" AotC Anakin has instead of something he can consistently replicate?

AOTC Anakin's "flashes of brilliance" are attributed to him wielding Yoda-tier raw power but utterly lacking the experience/mastery of "controlling" that, which is not the case for most Force users, especially those as mastered as Revan. Also, Meetra and Scourge believe that Revan's performance is something he can replicate.

I'll make you a Malachor V/Dromund Kaas argument after everything else dies down.

There's something incredibly satisfying about watching Elm and Ant go at it.