Dooku vs Revan: who’s the more naturally gifted?

TOTJ Kun > JA Kun

I'm also not convinced this is the case.

@IdrisianGraecus

Exaggeration. My whole Muur > Vong Krayt thing was b/c of the “greater than both of them” (referring to Krayt and Cade) line

That's not what the quote says. It says he possessed "powers" which "outshone" them both. Hardly definitive evidence he's superior.

I mean, most physical guys are > than their spirit selves (See Vitiate, Sidious, Muur, etc). I’m pretty sure JA Kun was either stagnant, or he had gotten weaker. I might be wrong, spitballing from mobile.

Fair point l, but I interpreted it as a superiority line, haven’t read Vector in ages, so my Krayt stuff is a bit rusty.

NotAA3 wrote:Nyriss beat the Jedi Exile though... she's not featless.

Also, it doesn't matter that it wasn't his lightning that vaporized her. He obviously had to utilise greater power than that used in the attack in order to easily block it meaning if he wanted to he could definitely disintegrate her with his own power.

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters. Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that. If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Doesn't exist anymore.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:The Exile can be scaled from a lot of things, being superior to Nihilus, who can rip 1200 meter dreadnoughts buried several miles in Malachor V’s surface, while in space with TK, and casually drain planets, almost at the level of Vitiate/Valkorion.

She was basically a hard counter to Nihilus, that was the whole point of her. Also, I'd argue that Nihilus had a better Drain because he didn't have to prep like Valk.

Valk draining Ziost is arguably far, far beyond Nihilus. It’s oossiblyle to block Nihilus’ drain, and Valk didn’t prep for Ziost, he just needed immense concentration. Nihilus without drain was still immensely powerful, which is what I’m trying to say. Meetra was able to beat a foe that’s TK is among the top in the mythos.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Valk draining Ziost is arguably far, far beyond Nihilus. It’s oossiblyle to block Nihilus’ drain, and Valk didn’t prep for Ziost, he just needed immense concentration. Nihilus without drain was still immensely powerful, which is what I’m trying to say. Meetra was able to beat a foe that’s TK is among the top in the mythos.

It's only possible with the power of plot (Meetra), being stronger in the Force (more hypothetical like Valk/Palp), or just knowing the Drain Resist technique like Dooku, Anakin, or Ulic. Again, she beat him due to plot. That's like saying the Outlander beat Valk fair and square.

Outlander didn’t beat Valk. You can’t just claim PIS for this.Nihilus’ drainisnt like ordinary drain though, you’d have to be significantly more powerful to resist it.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Outlander didn’t beat Valk. You can’t just claim PIS for this.Nihilus’ drainisnt like ordinary drain though, you’d have to be significantly more powerful to resist it.

Oh, so when Valk was crippled to a near death state that was just something he does whenever he feels like it and was completely willing to do so? Considering that Meetra's whole character was built around being a Nihilus hardcounter, yes I can. And yeah, that's why I mentioned people more powerful than him.

Yeah, I agree with @CaptainMarTuuk here. Nihilus is ludicrously more powerful than Meetra (e.g. stunned her effortlessly, ragdolled her around, etc.). Many circumstantial factors came together (e.g. intrinsic resistance to his Force drain, Visas severing her Force bond to Nihilus, Nihilus already being starved, etc.) that allowed her to defeat him. That being said, there's other to quantify Meetra's power. I'll write something up for Revan/Meetra soon.

@CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

NotAA3 wrote:CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery, and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive. Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku. That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore. In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery, and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive. Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku. That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore. In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

Revan is explicitly stated to be capable of using the light and dark sides of the force simultaneously.

Here's a general case for Revan's power, since some members seem doubtful he's even near Dooku:

1) Vrook Lamar, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell: As long as you recognize they're obviously more powerful than just generic Jedi Masters, everything else should work fine. They're all described as among "the highest of Jedi Masters," Bastila says Vrook is among "the most powerful Masters of the Order" and insinuates she's weaker than him even as of the battle of Lehon, and Kavar has "extremely potent Force powers." Feat-wise, they all mastered the Force Forms, Kavar causally stunned groups of five-so soldiers for twenty-some seconds, and their Force presences can easily be sensed on otherwise dead worlds (which, per Kreia, is a big deal).

2) Kreia on Dantooine: Kreia blasts back the three Jedi Masters with a gesture, and follows up via slamming Vrook back to the ground. 



She then utterly annihilates all of them with Force drain. Note they were all combat ready. It's very rare in Star Wars to ever see this level of domination, let alone against three super-powerful Jedi Masters. While it's likely tier 8s and tier 9s could replicate the feat, it's still obviously indicative of vast power on Kreia's part.



3) Kreia on Malachor V: Kreia stands "over a colossal geyser of dark side energy" in the core of a planet already laughably strong in the dark side. Kreia goes as far as to say, "It corrupts all that walks on its surface - drowns them in the power of the dark side." Ergo, she should should have been far more powerful there than on Dantooine.

4) Meetra Surik on Malachor V: Meetra reflects in the Revan novel that she was greatly psychologically and physically hindered on Malachor V. In contrast, Kreia appears to have no issue at all, likely because of her constant exposure to the planet's conditions as a Sith (similar to the Zealots and Nathema). 

The Old Republic - Revan wrote:Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her life.

Meetra fights through "a legion of elite Sith" dubbed as "the Sith's strongest guardians." Many were Sith Bladeborns "who survived no less than 10 lightsaber-wielding warriors in combat" (i.e. they're not fodder). Then she fights Sion multiple times in a row, which might not be incredibly impressive but surely adds to her fatigue. After all that, Meetra beats down Kreia fair-and-square. Kreia explicitly invokes her full arsenal to defeat Meetra, including her "vast telekinetic powers." And the quote saying, "Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat," just as plausibly refers to Kreia against Sion given the preceding context. Even if not, Meetra has to be comparably powerful if she managed to defeat such a super-empowered Kreia after fighting through armies. Also note that Sion is confident Meetra's power will eventually surpass Kreia's anyway: "I cannot see as she does, but I know, that in time, you shall surpass her power."

5.) Darth Nyriss: It's actually stupidly insane, but Nyriss beats down Meetra in the time it takes for Scourge to recover from a stumble (i.e. a few seconds at best). Note the quote below, Scourge's stumbling backward, and the Force push at the end being when he recovered. Nyriss also enters the fight by throwing herself between Meetra and Scourge -- seemingly a deliberately disadvantageous position -- and still manages to beat both of them down easily.

The Old Republic - Revan wrote:Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.

Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.

Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.

In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.

Later, after Nyriss super-charges her Force lightning storm, the text notes it would "incinerate" Meetra and Scourge outright (despite both obviously being able to still defend themselves with a Force barrier or whatnot). So, it's very, very apparent that Nyriss is radically stronger than Meetra as of this state. 

6. Revan) Revan jumps in the middle of this super-charged Force lightning storm and causally absorbs it. Revan then reflects the energies back at Nyriss, and they literally "rip" through her Force barrier "unabated" and turn her into a pile of ash. To emphasize, Nyriss super-charged her lightning so much that it could tear through her standard power "with no reduction in potency." Meetra, who watches this unfold, confirms Revan still "easily" handled these energies (i.e. Revan wasn't strained, etc.). 

The Essential Reader's Companion states, "Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord," showing this act is indicative of Revan's general "raw power" and not some disproportionately savant ability. Note tutaminis is the cornerstone of "Control" (i.e. the Force sphere related to Force augmentation) and consistently shown to be tied to Force power more generally (besides explicitly unique cases like Corran Horn). For example, Yoda's tutaminis clocks out simultaneous with Palpatine's Force lightning in the ROTS junior novel. And both Meetra (e.g. "He had easily bested Darth Nyriss, but the Emperor was a much greater opponent") and Scourge (e.g. "Or maybe Scourge just felt that way because he’d watched him destroy Nyriss." / "If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man.") took Revan's tutaminis display as both proof of his overall Force power and predicative of his future combat viability, meaning this "tutaminis is an independent ability" idea isn't holding up at all. Not to mention the holistics of just outright ashing another character is clearly meant to show you're far stronger. 

And I think there's a misconception with what comes about using tutaminis against a lightsaber.  That just means they're powerful enough to check the immense heat and portion of the plasma blade for however long they defended against it -- that doesn't mean they can shoot lightsabers out of their hands. I also wouldn't say Ti uses tutaminis against Grievous anyway -- the lightsaber never quite hits her hand. Of course, reflecting the tip of the blade for a millisecond =/= harnessing its full potency.

---

So, everything considered, you can track Revan's power via being ludicrously more powerful than Nyriss, who is ludicrously more powerful than Meetra, who defeated Kreia with many debilitating factors, and Kreia is ludicrously more powerful than three powerful Jedi Council members. Obviously, it's hard to quantify and compare tossing giant cruisers with ashing extreme Force users, but I'd wager the latter is probably more impressive (given the preponderance of high-level environmental telekinetic feats and severe lack of combat-relevant Force dominance feats anything like this). And, of course, this is just one feat out of many for Revan.

[hideedit]

Nice post Ant, though I will make some cases about it. Besides that, do you think Revan is superior or inferior to Nihilus?

HellfireUnit wrote:Nice post Ant, though I will make some cases about it. Besides that, do you think Revan is superior or inferior to Nihilus?

I generally don't rank Nihilus given his fluctuating power-level and ambiguity over whether his planetary drain is different from his combat drain.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Nice post Ant, though I will make some cases about it. Besides that, do you think Revan is superior or inferior to Nihilus?

I generally don't rank Nihilus given his fluctuating power-level and ambiguity over whether his planetary drain is different from his combat drain.

Also his dookie speed.

KingofBlades wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery, and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive. Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku. That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore. In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

Revan is explicitly stated to be capable of using the light and dark sides of the force simultaneously.

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery, and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive. Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku. That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore. In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

Revan is explicitly stated to be capable of using the light and dark sides of the force simultaneously.

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

You can use the dark side to heal. And by force judgment are you referring to electric judgment? If so then you can use it while still drawing on the light.

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

@CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

@CaptainMarTuuk how would you define "full extent" in relation to using different sides of the Force?

In fact for most individuals if you are say a DS user, you are completely unable to draw on the light at all.
That's what makes Revan's feat of drawing on the light and dark insane. He shouldn't be able to use both.

Praxis wrote:CaptainMarTuuk how would you define "full extent" in relation to using different sides of the Force?

It's established that some powers have a specific leaning to one side or another. A Sith could heal himself (Light Side power) but not as well as a Jedi could.