Dooku vs Revan: who’s the more naturally gifted?

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

KingofBlades wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

NotAA3 wrote:CaptainMarTuuk

The Jedi Exile is iffy for power, like all video game characters.

Her being a video game character doesn't make her iffy for power lol. In terms of feats, she has beaten Traya who was capable of ragdolling and draining a group of Jedi Masters.

Tutaminus and Lightning aren't connected like that.

Examples disagree with you (e.g. Sidious is more powerful and Galen and bypasses his Tutaminis defence, Dooku is less powerful than Yoda and fails to breach his defences, Sidious and Yoda are perfect equals so their clash results in a stalemate, etc).

If they were, then Shaak Ti and Satele Shan would be able to turn there arms into Lightsabers.

Wut? Why does a connection between Tutaminis and Lightning mean Shaak and Shan should be able to turn their arms into lightsabers?

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery, and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive. Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku. That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore. In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

Revan is explicitly stated to be capable of using the light and dark sides of the force simultaneously.

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

You can use the dark side to heal. And by force judgment are you referring to electric judgment? If so then you can use it while still drawing on the light.

And? You're basically just rewording what I've said. Sith can still heal, Jedi are just better and a Sith would never be as good as a Jedi.

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

Well, Revan's unique because he can use both at once, right. So, going back to an earlier idea, Revan can fluidly use both Force healing and Force lightning.

I think it's also important to note a distinction between choosing not to use an ability and being biologically incapable. Yoda could use Force lightning to an extreme potency, but doing that necessitates invoking the dark side, so he decides not to. That doesn't mean he can't do that though.

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

When Exar Kun turned to the dark side he found himself completely unable to call on the lightside of the force. Even attempting to try was thought as foolish by Darth Plagueis. So most people cannot call on both sides of the force.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

Well, Revan's unique because he can use both at once, right. So, going back to an earlier idea, Revan can fluidly use both Force healing and Force lightning.

I think it's also important to note a distinction between choosing not to use an ability and being biologically incapable. Yoda could use Force lightning to an extreme potency, but doing that necessitates invoking the dark side, so he decides not to. That doesn't mean he can't do that though.

I'm not saying he can't. Dark Side Yoda is entirely possible, but he won't use it because he knows what will happen. He either goes Dark or goes insane. Sure he could make a powerful if he tried, I'm not arguing that.

KingofBlades wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

When Exar Kun turned to the dark side he found himself completely unable to call on the lightside of the force. Even attempting to try was thought as foolish by Darth Plagueis. So most people cannot call on both sides of the force.

That's because Exar Kun is a bum and Plageuis was still pissed at Gravid for trying to use both sides all the way and setting back the Grand Plan hundreds if years.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

Well, Revan's unique because he can use both at once, right. So, going back to an earlier idea, Revan can fluidly use both Force healing and Force lightning.

I think it's also important to note a distinction between choosing not to use an ability and being biologically incapable. Yoda could use Force lightning to an extreme potency, but doing that necessitates invoking the dark side, so he decides not to. That doesn't mean he can't do that though.

Would Yoda be able to though? Exar Kun's case shows evidence to the contrary.

KingofBlades wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

CaptainMarTuuk wrote:

DarthAnt66 wrote:

Notice I said "to their full extent". Any time a Sith Heals themself, they dip into the Light, and any time a Jedi use Force Judgement they dip into the Dark. But you can't have the best of both and stay sane unless you're the Chosen One. Like I said, that's stated multiple times across multiple different works, authors, etc.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, we know Revan "learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength," and he could "let both the light and dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers" and release the Force "in its purest form" at will via this. That's one of his many unique traits.

Note there's no source that directly states, "Only the Chosen One can use both sides of the Force simultaneously," just that he'll bring balance to the galaxy.

Like I said, he can use both sides. Anyone could. But you won't see Yoda busting out a Palpatine tier Force Storm any time soon. Ima be honest with you, the Chosen One thing is kinda just an assumption on my part because I'd say he could and I feel like the whole Mortis thing backs that up a bit.

Well, Revan's unique because he can use both at once, right. So, going back to an earlier idea, Revan can fluidly use both Force healing and Force lightning.

I think it's also important to note a distinction between choosing not to use an ability and being biologically incapable. Yoda could use Force lightning to an extreme potency, but doing that necessitates invoking the dark side, so he decides not to. That doesn't mean he can't do that though.

Would Yoda be able to though? Exar Kun's case shows evidence to the contrary.

It's presumably a willpower/general power issue, and since Yoda out classes in both, I would say so. Yoda could casually read the mind of pretty much anyone he talked to and just raw power is insane so I'd say so.

I'm not saying he can't. Dark Side Yoda is entirely possible, but he won't use it because he knows what will happen. He either goes Dark or goes insane. Sure he could make a powerful if he tried, I'm not arguing that.

@CaptainMarTuuk: I think we're on the same page then.

I think the overarching point is just Revan's tutaminis here is correlated with also his general Force powers and whatnot. 

Would Yoda be able to though? Exar Kun's case shows evidence to the contrary.

@KingofBlades: If Kun actively embraced the light side again, he probably could then, though it's obviously hard to pull yourself back from the dark side.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

I'm not saying he can't. Dark Side Yoda is entirely possible, but he won't use it because he knows what will happen. He either goes Dark or goes insane. Sure he could make a powerful if he tried, I'm not arguing that.

CaptainMarTuuk: I think we're on the same page then.

I think the overarching point is just Revan's tutaminis here is correlated with also his general Force powers and whatnot. 

Would Yoda be able to though? Exar Kun's case shows evidence to the contrary.

KingofBlades: If Kun actively embraced the light side again, he probably could then, though it's obviously hard to pull yourself back from the dark side.

I mean yeah, the Tutaminus feat shows power, but my problem was him saying it's like a direct 1:1 comparison to Lightning. Otherwise Satele and Shaak have Lightsaber arms now lol.

I mean yeah, the Tutaminus feat shows power, but my problem was him saying it's like a direct 1:1 comparison to Lightning. Otherwise Satele and Shaak have Lightsaber arms now lol.

@CaptainMarTuuk: Well, refer back to what I said on the feat here:

The Essential Reader's Companion states, "Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord," showing this act is indicative of Revan's general "raw power" and not some disproportionately savant ability. Note tutaminis is the cornerstone of "Control" (i.e. the Force sphere related to Force augmentation) and consistently shown to be tied to Force power more generally (besides explicitly unique cases like Corran Horn). For example, Yoda's tutaminis clocks out simultaneous with Palpatine's Force lightning in the ROTS junior novel. And both Meetra (e.g. "He had easily bested Darth Nyriss, but the Emperor was a much greater opponent") and Scourge (e.g. "Or maybe Scourge just felt that way because he’d watched him destroy Nyriss." / "If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man.") took Revan's tutaminis display as both proof of his overall Force power and predicative of his future combat viability, meaning this "tutaminis is an independent ability" idea isn't holding up at all. Not to mention the holistics of just outright ashing another character is clearly meant to show you're far stronger.

And I think there's a misconception with what comes about using tutaminis against a lightsaber.  That just means they're powerful enough to check the immense heat and portion of the plasma blade for however long they defended against it -- that doesn't mean they can shoot lightsabers out of their hands. I also wouldn't say Ti uses tutaminis against Grievous anyway -- the lightsaber never quite hits her hand. Of course, reflecting the tip of the blade for a millisecond =/= harnessing its full potency.

With special emphasis to that last paragraph in relation to the lightsaber arms.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

I mean yeah, the Tutaminus feat shows power, but my problem was him saying it's like a direct 1:1 comparison to Lightning. Otherwise Satele and Shaak have Lightsaber arms now lol.

CaptainMarTuuk: Well, refer back to what I said on the feat here:

The Essential Reader's Companion states, "Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord," showing this act is indicative of Revan's general "raw power" and not some disproportionately savant ability. Note tutaminis is the cornerstone of "Control" (i.e. the Force sphere related to Force augmentation) and consistently shown to be tied to Force power more generally (besides explicitly unique cases like Corran Horn). For example, Yoda's tutaminis clocks out simultaneous with Palpatine's Force lightning in the ROTS junior novel. And both Meetra (e.g. "He had easily bested Darth Nyriss, but the Emperor was a much greater opponent") and Scourge (e.g. "Or maybe Scourge just felt that way because he’d watched him destroy Nyriss." / "If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man.") took Revan's tutaminis display as both proof of his overall Force power and predicative of his future combat viability, meaning this "tutaminis is an independent ability" idea isn't holding up at all. Not to mention the holistics of just outright ashing another character is clearly meant to show you're far stronger.

And I think there's a misconception with what comes about using tutaminis against a lightsaber. That just means they're powerful enough to check the immense heat and portion of the plasma blade for however long they defended against it -- that doesn't mean they can shoot lightsabers out of their hands. I also wouldn't say Ti uses tutaminis against Grievous anyway -- the lightsaber never quite hits her hand. Of course, reflecting the tip of the blade for a millisecond =/= harnessing its full potency.

With special emphasis to that last paragraph in relation to the lightsaber arms.

I'm not disagreeing that it can show power, just that it isn't a 1:1 match. And Shaak blocked the glancing blow while basically on the brink of death after fighting Grievous and an entire army beforehand. Also, Satele doesn't appear to touch the blade either so I don't see why that's relevant.

I'm not disagreeing that it can show power, just that it isn't a 1:1 match.

@CaptainMarTuuk:

While it's definitely plausible the correlation approaches 1:1, I'm just advocating for a high correlation. And I think it's especially fair to say Revan can match and surpass that Force lightning storm given he "easily" absorbed and reflected it, indicating he didn't even come close to invoking his full potency there.

If you agree on that much, then the rest of my scaling from Nyriss/Meetra/Kreia/Vrook should hold (unless you have other issues with it).

And Shaak blocked the glancing blow while basically on the brink of death after fighting Grievous and an entire army beforehand.

I'm not trying to discount Shaak's feat, I'm just saying deflecting the glancing blow doesn't mean she absorbed the whole lightsaber like Revan did with the lightning.

Also, Satele doesn't appear to touch the blade either so I don't see why that's relevant.

Well, in Satele's case, I think it's rather self-evident Satele used tutaminis. With Shaak, it's plausible she used a Force wall or something to that effect. And on that point, like I said earlier, I don't think Satele using tutaminsis on the lightsaber indicates lightsaber arms since it's not like she actually absorbed even close to its full power.

@CaptainMarTuuk

Traya herself is wack for feats because she's so shrouded in mystery,

Explain to me why this makes her wack for feats.

and her draining some fodder Jedi isn't particularly impressive.

See Ant's post for why it is.

Ok, yeah Yoda is more powerful than Dooku? That doesn't mean Yoda could shoot Lightning with the same power as Dooku.

If he actually attempted to use Force Lightning he definitely could. Saying Yoda can't, doesn't make that the case.

That isn't even remotely possible. Shaak Ti and Satele Shan both blocked Lightsabers with their bare hands using Tutaminus. You're saying that if I can block Force Lightning that can vaporize people with my Tutaminus, then by extent my Force Lightning would also vaporize people. Following that logic, if Satele and Shaak can both block Lightsabers with their Tutaminus, then they should be able to effectively turn their arms into Lightsabers or at the very least create Lightning with the same destructive output as a Lightsaber. The very idea is ludicrous and not backed by any Lore.

Ant went over all of this in his post.

In fact, it is established that it's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One. This is made clear by the fact that Abeloth went insane, the numerous times Jedi "Lightning" is said to pale in comparison to Sith Lightning, and the numerous Sith he went insane trying to achieve ultimate power this way (i.e: Darth Gravid).

The fact that two people went insane doesn't mean everyone will, and as Ant said Revan explicitly utilised both sides of the Force. You haven't provided any evidence that: "It's impossible to use both sides of the Force to their full extent and not go insane unless you're the Chosen One."

Not to mention none of what you posted actually bothers to address the examples I provided (e.g. Dooku vs Yoda, Galen vs Sidious, Luke vs Sidious, Vitiate vs Revan, etc).

Now that I think about it this is actually closer than both sides would care to admit. We know that if Dooku had stayed a jedi he would've eventually reached a level close to Yoda. This may not even be Dooku's ceiling. So we know Dooku has at least Yoda level potential. Revan likely reached a level close to his full potential by SoR since he was no longer growing in lockstep with Vitiate by the events of SWtOR. This is likely because Vitiate had not reached the limits of his potential while Revan had. So this really becomes a question of how powerful you believe SWtOR Vitiate to be. If you believe he's more powerful than Yoda then Revan likely has more potential. If you think Vitiate is sub Yoda then Dooku has more potential.

lol let's be honest, if dooku were shown doing the feats that darth revan and exar kun did the stories would prob get rejected because editors and readers would not buy that dooku could do them, not the planetary or more ridiculous feats at all
also, let's say dooku = revan
then nyriss = ...?? ventress?
meetra = ...aotc obi wan?
traya = ...tpm obi wan?
tpm obi wan can ragdoll three jedi council members? lmao

@DarthAnt66 Can you prove the Malachor V nexus is more potent than the Dromund Kaas nexus? If yes, the scaling looks solid.

Regarding Nihilus, Power Beyond Belief lays it out in clear terms that his planetary drain is disproportionate to his standard power level and would rarely come into play in active combat.

Isn't it possible that Nyriss drained a lot of her power charging up that lightning attack, and had little left to defend himself from it? It usually doesn't take as much energy to deflect lightning as it does to generate it (with some potent exceptions like Palpatine's), so Revan would use less of his power to deflect it than Nyriss would to charge it, in all likelihood.

That being said, that he did it with no significant exertion and turned her to ash through her barrier means it's still a top-tier feat, arguably Revan's best when you include the scaling chain through Traya.

To examine @Valkorion 's claim that the scaling chain requires novel Revan > Dooku though, if we imagine:

novel Revan = Dooku
Nyriss = Ventress
Meetra = early TCW Kit Fisto
Traya = early TCW Grievous

Early TCW Grievous is already capable of destroying squads of fairly high-level Jedi masters. So I don't think that proves Revan > Dooku.

You can say that Revan has better feats with regards to rituals, sorcery and esoteric dark side powers, but Dooku wasn't really in the same context to do those things, and that wasn't as strong of a focus for him. Dooku demonstrated exceptionally greater talent with a blade, though that isn't really relevant to the OP.

I would say that SoR Revan > Dooku though.

Isn't it possible that Nyriss drained a lot of her power charging up that lightning attack, and had little left to defend himself from it?

There's three independent reasons why the feat is impressive:

(A) Nyriss' super-charged lightning would have "incinerated" Meetra and Scourge, which goes back to the scaling chain.

(B) Revan "easily" absorbed said "incinerating" super-charged lightning, with it being explicitly indicative of his "raw power." 

(C) Said "incinerating" super-charged lightning tore through Nyriss' defenses "unabated" and turned her to ash. 

Note the question you're positing here doesn't address A or B. As for C, the text doesn't even make a whisper about fatigue on Nyriss' end (despite Drew generally highlighting on such things), and the lightning tore through her literally "unabated" anyway so, given how extreme that is, it doesn't really matter.

It usually doesn't take as much energy to deflect lightning as it does to generate it (with some potent exceptions like Palpatine's), so Revan would use less of his power to deflect it than Nyriss would to charge it, in all likelihood.

Key distinction here. Revan isn't deflecting the lightning away nor absorbing it on his blade. He's directly absorbing all its power then releasing it again. And, if you're referring to absorption, the lore absolutely doesn't support what you're saying. As you implied, Yoda's tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's Force lightning, with no indication of this being a discrepancy -- in fact, it's the best example we have, and one all authors and fans are familiar with.

To examine @Valkorion 's claim that the scaling chain requires novel Revan > Dooku though, if we imagine:

novel Revan = Dooku
Nyriss = Ventress
Meetra = early TCW Kit Fisto
Traya = early TCW Grievous

Early TCW Grievous is already capable of destroying squads of fairly high-level Jedi masters. So I don't think that proves Revan > Dooku.

Huh? Grievous defeated Mundi and co. through circumstantial factors, lightsaber skill, and brute force. There's no equivalency to be drawn with Kreia's Force powers. Also, sources reveal Mace crushed and permanently damaged Grievous after Hypori (ergo the coughing and why he's so bad in TCW), and Grievous was weakened vs. Fisto.

It’s also confirmed that Mundi and co. were exhausted on Hypori before the duel started.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Note the question you're positing here doesn't address A or B.

I explicitly didn't contest A, and I talked about B in the next point. And it can be "indicative" of his "raw power" without it being a 1-1 equivalence.

As for C, the text doesn't even make a whisper about fatigue on Nyriss' end (despite Drew generally highlighting on such things),

Lol, I bet you started typing that up and remembered Starkiller. What would the narrative point of mentioning Nyriss's exhaustion be?

Are you saying that charging her lightning for potentially dozens of seconds wouldn't have been remotely tiring? And then she has to put up her barrier right after releasing and potentially still sustaining it.

and the lightning tore through her literally "unabated" anyway so, given how extreme that is, it doesn't really matter.

It matters in terms of how large the Revan-Nyriss gap is, since I noted that it isn't necessarily larger than the RotS Dooku-Ventress gap.

Key distinction here. Revan isn't deflecting the lightning away nor absorbing it on his blade. He's directly absorbing all its power then releasing it again.

Why is that necessarily 1-1?

And, if you're referring to absorption, the lore absolutely doesn't support what you're saying. As you implied, Yoda's tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's Force lightning, with no indication of this being a discrepancy -- in fact, it's the best example we have, and one all authors and fans are familiar with.

Last I checked, you yourself believe that Palpatine's lightning is disproportionately powerful.

Do you think Vitiate could just overwhelm Revan with an immediate stream of lightning, given that you have them at near-parity?

Huh? Grievous defeated Mundi and co. through circumstantial factors, lightsaber skill, and brute force.

Blitzing combatants with sabers is arguably more difficult than doing the equivalent with the Force; it's certainly much rarer. The gaps in saber ability seem to be narrower, e.g. Dooku can more plausibly fight Sidious in a duel than a Force battle.

There's no equivalency to be drawn with Kreia's Force powers. Also, sources reveal Mace crushed and permanently damaged Grievous after Hypori (ergo the coughing and why he's so bad in TCW), and Grievous was weakened vs. Fisto.

What sources?

Anyway, if you don't like the Grievous example, you can use Shaak Ti vs. magnaguards, or if you still hold Vader below S1 TCW Obi Wan, early-TFU Galen Marek.

I explicitly didn't contest A, and I talked about B in the next point. And it can be "indicative" of his "raw power" without it being a 1-1 equivalence.

Hence why I said "note." I wasn't sure (and I'm still not sure) you knew what parts of my post you were addressing, so I made that clear. Also, refer to what I said earlier:

"While it's definitely plausible the correlation approaches 1:1, I'm just advocating for a high correlation. And I think it's especially fair to say Revan can match and surpass that Force lightning storm given he "easily" absorbed and reflected it, indicating he didn't even come close to invoking his full potency there."

Lol, I bet you started typing that up and remembered Starkiller.

No, I think Starkiller easily works within the trend. Vader too.

What would the narrative point of mentioning Nyriss's exhaustion be?

The same narrative point of adding detail to any sentence.

Also, as I mentioned in my intro post, Scourge reflects, "If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man," upon seeing him "destroy Nyriss," and Meetra reflects, "He had easily bested Darth Nyriss, but the Emperor was a much greater opponent." These musings would be totally irrelevant if Nyriss was in a super vulnerable or weakened position there, given they're extrapolating from Revan's vast superiority over Nyriss to consider how good he might fare against Vitiate.

Are you saying that charging her lightning for potentially dozens of seconds wouldn't have been remotely tiring? And then she has to put up her barrier right after releasing and potentially still sustaining it

It matters in terms of how large the Revan-Nyriss gap is, since I noted that it isn't necessarily larger than the RotS Dooku-Ventress gap.

Nyriss gathering and basking in a storm of dark side energy doesn't mean she dumped the totality of her reserves against Meetra and Scourge, and there's obviously many reasons why she wouldn't. And, as I highlighted earlier, Meetra and Scourge certainly don't think she did (so why should you?). 

Why is that necessarily 1-1?

As I said earlier, the correlation between tutaminis and lightning isn't necessarily absolute, just highly correlated (though Palpatine versus Yoda is actually one-to-one). And, again, given Revan "easily" performed the feat, he could obviously replicate far more than just 100% of the storm (which is a point you're missing). 

Moreover, the below quote states it's "a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect" lightning generally, which is perhaps why so few Jedi do it and indicating Revan actually had to put in a disproportionate amount of power to absorb Nyriss' attack.  

Last I checked, you yourself believe that Palpatine's lightning is disproportionately powerful.

That honestly has no bearing on my point that "Yoda's tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's Force lightning, with no indication of this being a discrepancy -- in fact, it's the best example we have, and one all authors and fans are familiar with." 

"Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod."

Do you think Vitiate could just overwhelm Revan with an immediate stream of lightning, given that you have them at near-parity?

There's a reason Revan used a lightsaber to block the earlier attacks. 

What sources?

There's one or two more too.

Blitzing combatants with sabers is arguably more difficult than doing the equivalent with the Force; it's certainly much rarer. The gaps in saber ability seem to be narrower, e.g. Dooku can more plausibly fight Sidious in a duel than a Force battle.

Anyway, if you don't like the Grievous example, you can use Shaak Ti vs. magnaguards, or if you still hold Vader below S1 TCW Obi Wan, early-TFU Galen Marek.

Hm, I think it's telling both of the examples you're trying to link with Revan totally don't work. Note I disagree with your first paragraph too, but we can get to that if you ever find some valid examples (besides Nyriss vs Meetra or super-high tiers like Palpatine and Yoda, neither of which help your case). 

Those magnaguards don't scale above anyone -- we've seen Nadar Vebb handle five magnaguards with ease (indicating they're not particularly impressive without learned combat experience) -- and Vader doesn't scale above early-TFU Marek, just like how Mace doesn't scale above AOTC Anakin (link).

---

All-in-all, Revan's handling of Nyriss is explicitly indicative of his raw power, and you've yet to find any example to compare the feat with.

[hideedit]

@Darthant66 you have Vader below TCW S1 Kenobi?

SithSauce wrote:@Darthant66 you have Vader below TCW S1 Kenobi?

I have no opinion on Vader's relationship to Kenobi.

DarthAnt66 wrote:

I explicitly didn't contest A, and I talked about B in the next point. And it can be "indicative" of his "raw power" without it being a 1-1 equivalence.

Also, refer to what I said earlier:

"While it's definitely plausible the correlation approaches 1:1, I'm just advocating for a high correlation. And I think it's especially fair to say Revan can match and surpass that Force lightning storm given he "easily" absorbed and reflected it, indicating he didn't even come close to invoking his full potency there."

So do you have any disagreements with the claim that RotS Dooku - Ventress can be plausibly characterized as a comparable gap?

No, I think Starkiller easily works within the trend. Vader too.

That the absence of an author mentioning a reasonable variable means it doesn't matter to us?

Did Stover or Gillard mention that Anakin was holding back against the magnaguards? Should we scale post-Zone Anakin below Shaak Ti?

You're arguing that Nyriss didn't strain herself to any meaningful degree charging her lightning for an extended period of time and then firing a dozen bolts, and can transition from powering her lightning to blocking it immediately with no detriment. Is that really reasonable?

The same narrative point of adding detail to any sentence.

You don't always mention every possible variable in every narration. "Nyriss tried to block Revan, but Revan had too many midichlorians and had gone through too many periods of immense power growth, and abilities like Force barrier and tutanimus are highly correlated to actualized Force power, which is itself a combination of potential, training and mindset, all of which Revan had in spades in that moment" would be pretty awkward to fit into that sentence too. Mentioning Nyriss's exhaustion would be pointless anyway because Revan would've destroyed her even at her full power, and the narrator isn't trying to qualify potential scaling chains.

Also, as I mentioned in my intro post, Scourge reflects, "If anyone had the strength to stop the Emperor, it was this man," upon seeing him "destroy Nyriss," and Meetra reflects, "He had easily bested Darth Nyriss, but the Emperor was a much greater opponent." These musings would be totally irrelevant if Nyriss was in a super vulnerable or weakened position there, given they're extrapolating from Revan's vast superiority over Nyriss to consider how good he might fare against Vitiate.

But I never said Revan wasn't far above Nyriss. I'm just pointing out that his feat above Nyriss isn't necessarily above Dooku's supremacy over someone like Ventress.

Nyriss gathering and basking in a storm of dark side energy doesn't mean she dumped the totality of her reserves against Meetra and Scourge, and there's obviously many reasons why she wouldn't. And, as I highlighted earlier, Meetra and Scourge certainly don't think she did (so why should you?). 

She doesn't have to dump the totality of her reserves to be tired; Force users almost never do that for a single attack. Does that mean Force users don't get tired? But someone who is charging an attack for dozens of seconds can reasonably be expected to be putting a lot of effort into it, or else they wouldn't have bothered charging it for so long.

That honestly has no bearing on my point that "Yoda's tutaminis is one-to-one with Palpatine's Force lightning, with no indication of this being a discrepancy -- in fact, it's the best example we have, and one all authors and fans are familiar with." 

Yes it does. We say it's 1-1 in the sense that it's 1-1 to their relative power in the Force, but if Palpatine's FL is disproportionate to his Force abilities as you think it is, then it would not have been 1-1 if it were an equivalently powerful Sith Lord without the disproportionate lightning.

There's a reason Revan used a lightsaber to block the earlier attacks. 

But not this one, presumably because it's less feasible to block really wide lightning with a lightsaber. Couldn't Vitiate just do what Palpatine does to Yoda in RotS?

Wasn't aware of the Grievous Hypori quote, so I'll withdraw that point.

Hm, I think it's telling both of the examples you're trying to link with Revan totally don't work. Note I disagree with your first paragraph too, but we can get to that if you ever find some valid examples (besides Nyriss vs Meetra or super-high tiers like Palpatine and Yoda, neither of which help your case). 

You're referring to the sabers vs. Force blitzing? So the ratio changes at the top tiers? Based on what? I gave examples (others would be Luke vs. Caedus, Anakin vs. Obi Wan, Sidious vs. DE Luke and Sidious vs. Windu); if you want to argue that this is different for the B-team tier, that's on you.

Those magnaguards don't scale above anyone -- we've seen Nadar Vebb handle five magnaguards with ease (indicating they're not particularly impressive without learned combat experience) --

As I'm sure you know, the ones Shaak Ti fought were Grievous's personal elite, and the magnaguards overall were improving over the course of the war. Besides, they're at the beginning of the scaling chain, so they aren't meant to scale above anyone. We can have:

Dooku - novel Revan
Ventress - Nyriss
S3 Ventress - Meetra
RotS Shaak Ti - Traya
6+ elite magnaguards - 3 KotORII era Jedi masters

Seeing as how any comparison of the high-tiers between the PT and KotORII Jedi comes out hilariously lopsided against KotORII (which was running really low on Jedi anyway), it's not clear to me that the 3 masters > double the elite magnaguards.

and Vader doesn't scale above early-TFU Marek, just like how Mace doesn't scale above AOTC Anakin (link).

Funny how you were earlier denying that Nyriss could've been tired because Drew didn't bother to mention it, but are now claiming that there's some mechanism regarding raw vs. actualized power that wasn't ever brought up in any of the feats in question.

And no; many of Galen's feats, like oneshotting hundreds of stormtroopers, are done with no particular charging time, and aren't involuntary bursts of power, so there's no reason to think that they would not have been applicable in personal combat. Even in the case of charged attacks, there were plenty of instances throughout his fights in TFU that he could've used them, and sometimes did.

If anything, Revan's tutanimus feat could've much more plausibly been the result of him gathering energies than the aforementioned of Galen's, which would fit examples of energy absorption being linked to raw power like Anakin's theta storm feat (and that Revan was gathering his power vs. Vitiate's and had an undetermined amount of time to do so vs. Nyriss). Not saying that's the case - but going by your logic for dismissing Galen scaling, it kind of would be.

So we have:

Dooku - novel Revan
Ventress - Nyriss
S3 Ventress - Meetra
S1 Ventress - Traya
BoTFU Galen Marek - 3 Jedi Masters

It suddenly seems a lot less obvious that Revan > Dooku, and this is being rather generous to Revan's scaling chain. I think you realize how damaging this Vader position is for TOR as a whole, which is why you will periodically argue for "Vader is sub/low tier 7" and then change your mind whenever its implications for scaling are noted.

I also think we may be overstating the gap between Nyriss and Meetra. The relevant parts of the fight sequence before the final charging go like this:

• Nyriss launches a bolt of lightning at them; they dodge, but are explicitly noted as therefore giving Nyriss the early advantage. (Did they have to dodge instead of block, seeing as how Meetra does block her lightning later, or was this a tactical mistake?)
  
• Nyriss attacks both of them in melee for an undetermined amount of time, eventually forcing Scourge (probably the inferior combatant) aside. We aren't told how Meetra is doing during this segment except that Scourge is himself on the defensive.
  
• Nyriss attacks Meetra, who manages to "hold her ground" but gets forced to one knee. She's about to land a critical blow, but Scourge saves her.
  
• Nyriss launches lightning at Meetra, who blocks it with a Force barrier but gets knocked back.
  

Holding your ground against a superior duelist is pretty difficult - usually the inferior duelist can prolong it by backtracking (e.g. Obi Wan vs. Anakin, OCW Ventress vs. Anakin, RotJ Vader vs. rage! Luke, Dooku vs. Zonakin), but not by standing there in an enclosed prison and blocking their strikes (nor do we know much about Meetra's dueling ability). While it is true that Scourge was also there, we don't know how Nyriss + element of surprise vs. Meetra and Scourge was going except that Scourge was forced on the defensive. Once Scourge was out of the picture, Nyriss had the advantage over Meetra, but frankly I don't think it was some sort of curbstomp level gap. Then Meetra was able to block her lightning with a Force barrier, albeit while still getting knocked back. 

Nyriss is clearly superior to novel Meetra (assuming that's comparable to KotOR II Meetra...), but the gap may be overstated because we see the fight from Scourge's perspective, and he's almost certainly far below Meetra.