Re: Count Dooku vs Darth Plagueis

December 6th 2019, 7:27 pm

Without the Luceno quote, Plagueis is a virtual unknown at the elite caliber as far as saber skill is concerned.

I'm going to consider it because I see no reason not to, barring any in-universe or out of universe contradiction. It's our only real source of data to make any sort of comparison and Luceno is the main source for Plagueis' current standing. His word carries a lot of weight in the absence of more reliable data.

People argue TPM Sidious was pre-prime which is true but there's no evidence he grew significantly more powerful by RotS. Other than the boost at the end of TPM, which may not even be that significant seeing how Plagueis wasn't significantly boosted after Tenebrous's death - he still couldn't manipulate MC. The quotes in regards to his power increasing could easily be his ever-growing political and military power, which is the actual power he used to topple the Jedi and the Republic in the grand scheme of things, not his individual prowess which only amounted to the deaths of 4 Jedi and saved him from Yoda's assassination attempt.

And even pre-boost Sidious has better feats than peak-Dooku. Being completely and utterly superior to TPM Maul to the point where no comparison between the two could be made in fight. Really isn't that much worse than Yoda completely outclassing Dooku on Geonosis.

Yoda completely outclassed Dooku by all main sources, it was not a close fight, and Anakin always performs much better against Dooku alone rather than working at Obi-Wan's more measured workrate. Dooku only schooled a Kenobi using his second-rate Ataru skills, he never outclassed a Kenobi using Soresu in pure sabers.

While I wish there were more feats from Plagueis to work with, I think the evidence points to Plagueis being at a higher plane of existence than Dooku.

December 6th 2019, 7:29 pm

Sabers: Count, handily. Plagueis has few if any lightsaber feats comparable to Dooku's.
Force: Plagueis, great fight.
All-out: Leaning towards the Count.

December 6th 2019, 7:38 pm

thing is, jedi dooku, who is much, much, much weaker than AOTC dooku, who is weaker than ROTS dooku, is already stronger than mace windu, who is a good deal stronger than Qui gon, who could fight maul pretty damn fine. as for something else, yoda himself says that dooku's attack was the real deal. u gonna dismiss the most prominent form of canon in this case (yoda's own words, and the AOTC novel) cuz some side notes said otherwise? alright lol. and dooku foderrized kenobi, without trying, whether he was using his soresu skills or not. and in case u didnt, kenobi is in fact a master of ataru, taught to him by qui gon himself, so that excuse is pretty much useless. not to mention the fact that the amount of in which he trained ataru for is likely longer than he trained in soresu.

if u want to go by statements, there are about like, 5 or so that say yoda was his one and only match even before TPM. this would include plagueis and TPM sheev iirc. plagueis considers him dangerous, simply cuz of how good he is a blade, and thats just what he knows from tales. he has never even seen dooku fight before. now u gonna say "hur dur what people say doesnt matter cuz that could just be hype talk", but kenobi actually says that dooku is good enough that the 'hype talk' he receives is pretty much on point.

as for the force, dooku just lacks feats, but what he does have is hella impressive. his feats> anything plagueis and anyone plagueis scales to have. stated to have been one of the most powerful force users ever born, being stronger than a jedi called the second strongest jedi ever or something, and being called the absolute master of form 2, and the temples most agile and learned master is just too good for plagueis to fight against.

December 6th 2019, 7:54 pm

thing is, jedi dooku, who is much, much, much weaker than AOTC dooku, who is weaker than ROTS dooku, is already stronger than mace windu,

Which Mace is he stronger than?

Padawan Mace = Yes.
Jedi knight Mace = Yes.
Pre-TPM Mace = Possibly.
TPM Mace = Possibly, but unlikely.
AOTC Mace = No.
ROTS Mace = 100% no.

December 6th 2019, 8:03 pm

TPM Mace has no impressive showings, just scaling over Jinn. His actual combative showings in this era are honesty pretty poor for someone with his stature. Canted Circle Plagueis is more impressive than Emessaries of Malastare Mace. Hell even TPM Maul's Black Sun feat is more impressive than Mace's performance against fodder.

December 7th 2019, 3:48 am

Yeah TPM era Jedi are trash lol (relative to real powerhouses of the era). I have no idea why people think TPM Yoda could beat Plagueis or why TPM Windu is good.

December 7th 2019, 11:23 am

Plagueis, good fight

December 7th 2019, 12:21 pm

Azronger wrote:Yeah TPM era Jedi are trash lol (relative to real powerhouses of the era). I have no idea why people think TPM Yoda could beat Plagueis or why TPM Windu is good.

What makes you think that TPM Plagueis could beat TPM Yoda?

December 7th 2019, 3:33 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:

Azronger wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Sidious despised lightsaber combat.

Been hearing this claim tossed around for years but have yet to hear any substantiation for it. Got a quote?

The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi.

That doesn't say what you think it does. In fact, it kind of implies the opposite.

December 7th 2019, 3:36 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:

Azronger wrote:Yeah TPM era Jedi are trash lol (relative to real powerhouses of the era). I have no idea why people think TPM Yoda could beat Plagueis or why TPM Windu is good.

What makes you think that TPM Plagueis could beat TPM Yoda?

Plagueis is a peer of Sidious while TPM Yoda is around Ventress level

December 7th 2019, 4:21 pm

Dooku. MM is Hego's only shot.

December 7th 2019, 4:27 pm

Azronger wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

Azronger wrote:Yeah TPM era Jedi are trash lol (relative to real powerhouses of the era). I have no idea why people think TPM Yoda could beat Plagueis or why TPM Windu is good.

What makes you think that TPM Plagueis could beat TPM Yoda?

Plagueis is a peer of Sidious while TPM Yoda is around Ventress level

i would not expect this from you . unless you are baiting or trolling which you should not do as a moderator .

what makes you think TPM yoda is significantly below his RoTS self ?
on the contrary yoda was already a grandmaster of the jedi order and had unlimited access to all holocrons and knowledge in the jedi archives .
he was every bit as knowledgeable as his RoTS self and a bit younger .
in fact i don´t think we ever saw "real deal" prime yoda going all out in a fight .
we only consider his RoTS incarnation to be his "prime" because we lack material on his prior life .
but if you use simple logic RoTS yoda was already like 20 years away from his dead bed (which is nothing considering his species lifespan)
and had to rely upon a wooden cane to support his walking without any kind of force augmentation .
if plagueis or sidious were confident they could take down yoda they would do so .
they were reluctant to reveal themselves to jedi dooku for crying out loud .
plagueis was even considering to replace sidious with dooku as his apprentice (same dooku who was considerably inferior to yoda)
TPM yoda > TPM plagueis >= TPM sidious (pre boost) > jedi dooku .
plagueis would put up a fight but he would lose against PT yoda no matter if TPM/AoTC or RoTS ...

December 7th 2019, 4:28 pm

plagueis fucks him up

December 7th 2019, 4:37 pm

The Witness wrote:plagueis fucks him up

Reasons?

December 7th 2019, 4:38 pm

Plagueis atomises

December 7th 2019, 4:40 pm

Actually, I have to retract my point on TPM Mace having no significant feats. I just realized he still has the Viana showing, who gave CW Kenobi a decent fight.

December 7th 2019, 4:40 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:Plagueis atomises Dooku's battle droid companions before getting shredded by Dooku.

Count Dooku vs Darth Plagueis - Page 3 1289255181

December 7th 2019, 4:44 pm

O-Siri wrote:Actually, I have to retract my point on TPM Mace having no significant feats. I just realized he still has the Viana showing, who gave CW Kenobi a decent fight.

Is that the one where he stomped that bounty hunter?

December 7th 2019, 4:45 pm

Editing my quotes won’t hide the fact that Dooku would get more manhandled by Plagueis than I would by you.

December 7th 2019, 4:46 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:

O-Siri wrote:Actually, I have to retract my point on TPM Mace having no significant feats. I just realized he still has the Viana showing, who gave CW Kenobi a decent fight.

Haven't heard of this feat.

It was in one of the Tale's of the Jedi comics and she made a reappearance in the CW adventure comics. WM has it outlined in his respect thread:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/star-wars-universe/4015-57038/forums/mace-windu-respect-thread-1792527/

December 7th 2019, 4:47 pm

dark_globe wrote:

Azronger wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

Azronger wrote:Yeah TPM era Jedi are trash lol (relative to real powerhouses of the era). I have no idea why people think TPM Yoda could beat Plagueis or why TPM Windu is good.

What makes you think that TPM Plagueis could beat TPM Yoda?

Plagueis is a peer of Sidious while TPM Yoda is around Ventress level

i would not expect this from you . unless you are baiting or trolling which you should not do as a moderator .

It's not trolling or baiting. Ventress is stated to be an excellent fight for AotC Yoda. This is corroborated by her pressuring Windu on two occasions during the Clones Wars. TPM Windu is stated to be on par TPM Yoda.

December 7th 2019, 4:47 pm

CuckedCurry wrote:Editing my quotes won’t hide the fact that Dooku would get more manhandled by Plagueis than I would by you