Re: Count Dooku vs Darth Plagueis

August 28th 2019, 4:35 am

Plagueis mid diff.

August 28th 2019, 5:46 pm

Dooku.

December 5th 2019, 4:34 pm

Honestly, at this point the Count should take it. His proximity to Yoda as of AOTC and his performance against the Kenobi/Skywalker duo aboard the Invisible Hand impress me more than Plagueis being a rough equal with pre boost TPM Sheev.

December 6th 2019, 12:06 am

i agree. his skill even a jedi was already enough for plagueis to weary. him as sith>>>>> his jedi self in almost all relevant categories.

December 6th 2019, 12:37 am

Plagueis via being a combative threat to post-boost TPM Sidious.

December 6th 2019, 12:52 am

Plageuis does possess superior stamina, strength, speed and him being an equal to Sidious puts him way above Dooku in sabers. Also Plagueis' combat knowledge is superior to Dooku, as a master swordsman.

December 6th 2019, 2:37 am

Prove being comparable in power to tpm Sidious is more impressive than Dooku's various performances against Yoda. Also Note that Plagueis being comparable in power to TPM sheev does not mean he is comparable in sabers to RotS sheev. So there is no basis for Plagueis being above Dooku in sabers when Dooku's accolades shit on Plagueis's.

December 6th 2019, 2:50 am

KingofBlades wrote:Prove being comparable in power to tpm Sidious is more impressive than Dooku's various performances against Yoda. Also Note that Plagueis being comparable in power to TPM sheev does not mean he is comparable in sabers to RotS sheev. So there is no basis for Plagueis being above Dooku in sabers when Dooku's accolades shit on Plagueis's.

1. TPM and ROTS Sidious are both limited by their bodies, and since TPM Sidious reached his potential, ROTS Sidious also has the same general dueling capabilities until he draws beyond his body. In fact, you could argue TPM Sidious > ROTS Sidious as a duelist. This puts Plagueis at a power level comparable to a tier 9 duelist, which is beyond Dooku's paygrade.

Who trained Sidious in lightsaber combat? Anyway, it doesn't matter if Dooku is better in technical skill when Plagueis is more powerful and about as skilled.

December 6th 2019, 3:06 am

Sidious despised lightsaber combat and only held one twice during the Clone Wars (iirc) unless you count the dream sequence against Yoda. He was out of practice so I don't see how he'd be able to improve his combat skills post-TPM. Also Dooku puts up a poor performance when he faces styles that are strong against Makashi. Plagueis fought a Venamis who trained to counter Plagueis specifically and yet he was able to beat him even without using the saber form he was most proficient with.

December 6th 2019, 3:28 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Sidious despised lightsaber combat and only held one twice during the Clone Wars (iirc) unless you count the dream sequence against Yoda. He was out of practice so I don't see how he'd be able to improve his combat skills post-TPM.

How is that relevant? There's only a handful of people in the EU that could arguably beat Sidious in a duel besides Luke.

HellfireUnit wrote:Also Dooku puts up a poor performance when he faces styles that are strong against Makashi.

Proof? He lost against Anakin because it was Anakin, not because he was facing a Djem So duelist. In fact, it's hard to argue that his style has any weaknesses at all. When you get to that level, you're approaching a kind of perfection honestly.

HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis fought a Venamis who trained to counter Plagueis specifically and yet he was able to beat him even without using the saber form he was most proficient with.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

December 6th 2019, 3:35 am

Meatpants wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Sidious despised lightsaber combat and only held one twice during the Clone Wars (iirc) unless you count the dream sequence against Yoda. He was out of practice so I don't see how he'd be able to improve his combat skills post-TPM.

How is that relevant? There's only a handful of people in the EU that could arguably beat Sidious in a duel besides Luke.

HellfireUnit wrote:Also Dooku puts up a poor performance when he faces styles that are strong against Makashi.

Proof? He lost against Anakin because it was Anakin, not because he was facing a Djem So duelist. In fact, it's hard to argue that his style has any weaknesses at all. When you get to that level, you're approaching a kind of perfection honestly.

HellfireUnit wrote:Plagueis fought a Venamis who trained to counter Plagueis specifically and yet he was able to beat him even without using the saber form he was most proficient with.

Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

1 - KoB wrote that being ~ TPM Sidious in sabers does not mean he is ~ RotS Sidious. I wrote that because there isn't anything that implies he grew as a duelist post-TPM

2 - Not just against Anakin. When it comes to fighting styles that is essential with physical strength, he performans poorly. Savage, TCW Anakin are all examples, not just IH Anakin.

3 - I was trying to prove Plagueis' saber mastery. Being capable of beating someone who is trained to be his counter.

December 6th 2019, 3:38 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Not just against Anakin. When it comes to fighting styles that is essential with physical strength, he performans poorly. Savage, TCW Anakin are all examples, not just IH Anakin.

Savage showing is overblown, and your other example is.... Anakin again lol. Nice rebuttal.

December 6th 2019, 3:43 am

Huh, thought you were referring to IH Anakin therefore I showed CW Anakin who is quite below. And why is Savage's showing is overblown? The latter fought 1v2 and hurled Dooku twice. His combat mastery is nowhere near Dooku.

December 6th 2019, 4:05 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Huh, thought you were referring to IH Anakin therefore I showed CW Anakin who is quite below. And why is Savage's showing is overblown? The latter fought 1v2 and hurled Dooku twice. His combat mastery is nowhere near Dooku.

Dooku underestimating his opponent doesn't provide concrete evidence that Dooku has an inherent weakness to strength-based attacks in his style. At most he'd have a small stylistic disadvantage against a strength-based duelist, but he's largely mitigated the "traditional" weaknesses of Makashi.

December 6th 2019, 4:10 am

What makes you think he was underestimating Savage? He fought quite seriously against the Zabrak with his former apprentice. Whenever Dooku duels, it is obvious he struggles against the physical strength based attacks. I can provide videos. This isn't about Anakin or Savage. Makashi is known to be weak against kinetic energy and Dooku's age nor mastery makes it any easier for him.

By the way, were we not both making cases in favour of Plagueis? What makes you think that he is superior to Dooku?

December 6th 2019, 4:16 am

Can't argue with "muh forms"

December 6th 2019, 4:17 am

December 6th 2019, 6:27 am

HellfireUnit wrote:Sidious despised lightsaber combat.

Been hearing this claim tossed around for years but have yet to hear any substantiation for it. Got a quote?

December 6th 2019, 6:52 am

I'm pretty sure there's a source that says Sheev only used lightsabers in order to humiliate the jedi at their own game. Which could be interpreted as sheev not actually liking saber combat I guess.

December 6th 2019, 6:57 am

Azronger wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Sidious despised lightsaber combat.

Been hearing this claim tossed around for years but have yet to hear any substantiation for it. Got a quote?

The Sith grew past the use of lightsabers. But we continue to use them, if only to humiliate the Jedi.

December 6th 2019, 7:30 am

How does that corroborate Sidious despising lightsaber combat?

December 6th 2019, 8:32 am

Dooku being a near equal of Yoda, as seen from their fight on Vjun, wherein both were amped by the nexus, gives him a majority.

December 6th 2019, 8:36 am

sidious is not even close to being 'much better' than dooku, skill with sabers or the force. both are worse than yoda, but dooku at least damaged him in a duel, something no one else has ever done. secondly, dooku is the much more experienced fighter here. plagueis getting enraged and surviving after a big injury does not show much greater stamina, since the guy did use the dark side heavily, and had two hearts iirc, while dooku has survived poisons often times without relying on the dark side at all, some of them being extremely high end poisons (could casually fight ventress and two other lightsaber-wielding night sisters, while drugged and with his eyes closed, and around 83 years of age, after he had just woken up, without even using heavily relying on the dark side).

December 6th 2019, 9:04 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:sidious is not even close to being 'much better' than dooku, skill with sabers or the force. both are worse than yoda, but dooku at least damaged him in a duel, something no one else has ever done. secondly, dooku is the much more experienced fighter here. plagueis getting enraged and surviving after a big injury does not show much greater stamina, since the guy did use the dark side heavily, and had two hearts iirc, while dooku has survived poisons often times without relying on the dark side at all, some of them being extremely high end poisons (could casually fight ventress and two other lightsaber-wielding night sisters, while drugged and with his eyes closed, and around 83 years of age, after he had just woken up, without even using heavily relying on the dark side).

What...

December 6th 2019, 9:27 am

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:sidious is not even close to being 'much better' than dooku, skill with sabers or the force. both are worse than yoda, but dooku at least damaged him in a duel, something no one else has ever done. secondly, dooku is the much more experienced fighter here. plagueis getting enraged and surviving after a big injury does not show much greater stamina, since the guy did use the dark side heavily, and had two hearts iirc, while dooku has survived poisons often times without relying on the dark side at all, some of them being extremely high end poisons (could casually fight ventress and two other lightsaber-wielding night sisters, while drugged and with his eyes closed, and around 83 years of age, after he had just woken up, without even using heavily relying on the dark side).

What are you on?