Re: Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

August 28th 2019, 11:48 am

"Maybe" is used to imply with a range in mind. I for example might say Dooku is maybe 70% of Yoda. My intent as an authority on the topic is to suggest that Dooku is definitely not a rival of Yoda's, but it's not like he's 30% of Yoda. He can (and has) given him a good fight. Lucas didn't have a set value in mind because he was just trying to suggest Vader is less powerful, not so much weaker that's he's, say 10-15% of Sidious. If he wanted to make it clear that the two aren't even remotely comparable, he would have gone a lot lower than 80% for a "maybe", especially considering how liberally that maybe can be taken and thus could for example be used to suggest he's 85 or even 90% of Sidious.
No one is arguing suit Vader ~ Sidious. It's using Lucas' quote to say that Vader isn't just completely eclipsed by the likes of ROTS Sidious. For example, the most I would argue for ESB/ROTJ Vader is around Dooku level in power but maybe Maul level in sabers. If ANH Vader was still described as moving roughly and quite clumsily, there's no reason to believe that ESB >> ANH Vader in sabers. Sure he's more skilled, but not some uber tier duelist all of a sudden.

August 28th 2019, 12:01 pm

Yeah, because what Lucas was really trying to emphasise was that RotS Sidious wouldn't murk Vader. That's exactly what Lucas wanted to get across to the audience.

August 28th 2019, 12:13 pm

Still Vader.

September 5th 2019, 11:54 am

Vader is being underestimated.

September 5th 2019, 1:04 pm

YousufLatham wrote:

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:I’m not trolling SithSauce, Vader, while not intended to be a tier 4 in the EU, comes across as one. They never actually retconned his sub TPM Kenobi Lucas intent, all he has done is stomp fodder, or have difficulty with fodder. He has embarrassing performances half the time and saying someone is on his level makes them look bad. The Resurrection fight is also non-continuity per the latest Chee quote, so Vader no longer has anything that holds him high. His feats (mainly TK) while impressive (nearing K’kruhk’s ship feat, but still below), aren’t unprecedented, and he is commonly given more challenge from quantifiable fodder than the likes of Savage Opress are given by Council Members. I was pro Vader, two things changed that, but the main thing was that he makes anyone in his general range look like literal shit.

What on earth is this Vader low balling? Vader isn't a level/tier 4, the quote that says Vader was a 4 dates back to when ANH was in production, and it was nothing more than an idea that Lucas toyed around with, such ideas aren't necessarily canon. And it wasn't Leland Chee who stated that the Resurrection comic is non canon, it was Pablo Hidalgo who made that statement in Star Wars Insider 85. Since when did Chee say it was non canon?

You are doing god's work Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader - Page 3 1289255181

September 5th 2019, 1:35 pm

Wait, are people taking the levels from The Annotated Screenplay and applying them to the Gillard scale now?

September 5th 2019, 2:12 pm

Azronger wrote:Wait, are people taking the levels from The Annotated Screenplay and applying them to the Gillard scale now?

Yeah... What makes that argument is that these levels say that Vader is a 4 and Ben Kenobi is a 6, so they'd be under Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi if that argument is taken seriously.

September 5th 2019, 2:36 pm

YousufLatham wrote:

Azronger wrote:Wait, are people taking the levels from The Annotated Screenplay and applying them to the Gillard scale now?

Yeah... What makes that argument is that these levels say that Vader is a 4 and Ben Kenobi is a 6, so they'd be under Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi if that argument is taken seriously.

Vader is a 4 in force power. However this isn't using the same scale as Gillard's. They're separate.

September 5th 2019, 2:44 pm

Just saying, I love the double standards. Ben and Vader being "maybe" a 6 and 4 respectively is taken with credibility, but Lucas saying post-ROTS suit Vader is "maybe" 80% of ROTS Sidious is deemed illogical and just a figure he's thrown out. Since we're using ideas from the drafting stage of ANH, can I pull up ESB Vader TPing Luke from halfway across the galaxy with enough Force to not only mentally influence him, but knock him unconscious? It was part of the drafting process and was in the original script.

September 5th 2019, 2:47 pm

BreakofDawn wrote:Just saying, I love the double standards. Ben and Vader being "maybe" a 6 and 4 respectively is taken with credibility, but Lucas saying post-ROTS suit Vader is "maybe" 80% of ROTS Sidious is deemed illogical and just a figure he's thrown out.

No, the 80% quote is completely valid. Sadly however the quote is useless since there is no way to quantify the 20% gap.

September 5th 2019, 2:54 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Just saying, I love the double standards. Ben and Vader being "maybe" a 6 and 4 respectively is taken with credibility, but Lucas saying post-ROTS suit Vader is "maybe" 80% of ROTS Sidious is deemed illogical and just a figure he's thrown out.

No, the 80% quote is completely valid. Sadly however the quote is useless since there is no way to quantify the 20% gap.

Neither is the gap between this 4 and 6 disparity. At least the Vader one indicates his raw power is still comparable to Sidious. The 4 and 6 gap tells us absolutely nothing beyond one being more powerful than the other.

Again, using ideas from a drafting process is not a good idea. ESB had Vader TPing Luke from across the galaxy and knocking him unconscious, in one of the cases while he was on Dagobah and Vader was on Mustafar.

September 5th 2019, 3:20 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

BreakofDawn wrote:

KingofBlades wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Just saying, I love the double standards. Ben and Vader being "maybe" a 6 and 4 respectively is taken with credibility, but Lucas saying post-ROTS suit Vader is "maybe" 80% of ROTS Sidious is deemed illogical and just a figure he's thrown out.

No, the 80% quote is completely valid. Sadly however the quote is useless since there is no way to quantify the 20% gap.

Neither is the gap between this 4 and 6 disparity. At least the Vader one indicates his raw power is still comparable to Sidious. The 4 and 6 gap tells us absolutely nothing beyond one being more powerful than the other.

Except the former quote has Luke's value of 2 acting as a reference point. So whatever gap Ben has over Vader in the force is just as significant as Vader and Luke. Jedi tend to not use the force offensively and Kenobi even less so. So any potential counterargument that questions why Kenobi didn't capitalize on this advantage can be easily explained by Kenobi's style not promoting such tactics. Another equally plausible explanation is that Vader though noticeably weaker than Kenobi in the force was still outside of Ben's rag doll range.

Now the 80% quote does not in any way suggest Vader is comparable in power to Sidious. Obi Wan could be 85% of Sidious for example and still be in Sidious's rag doll range. In order for this quote to be significant you would need a character that has faced off against Sidious acting as a reference point. So if Yoda was given a value of 90% of Sidious, you would then be able to quantify the gap. However since no other values exist, the quote means nothing beyond Sidious being more powerful than Vader by some unknown margin. Now you might argue something along the lines of Lucas's intent was not for the gap to be enormous. Except it was. The co producer of ESB said that Sheev was much more powerful than Vader. So any author intent argument is null and void. In fact if anyone has the author's intent on their side its me when you consider the co producer of ESB's statement.

September 5th 2019, 3:54 pm

@KingofBlades: The idea that Ben is more powerful than Vader is a concept that Lucas toyed around with. It's just a reflection of his very early views on Vader and Kenobi's power level. Leland Chee has even noted that Lucas changes his mind and alters his ideas.

September 5th 2019, 5:22 pm

YousufLatham wrote:@KingofBlades: The idea that Ben is more powerful than Vader is a concept that Lucas toyed around with. It's just a reflection of his very early views on Vader and Kenobi's power level. Leland Chee has even noted that Lucas changes his mind and alters his ideas.

Show me where Lucas reneged on his Ben>Vader belief. Until you do so the quote remains unretconned.

September 5th 2019, 5:39 pm

That quote is not valid and it has been discussed, lmao.

September 5th 2019, 5:41 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:That quote is not valid and it has been discussed, lmao.

Elaborate as to why its not valid please. And even if you were to do that, there is still the plethora of sources that all depict Ben and Vader fighting as relative equals on the DS.

September 5th 2019, 5:43 pm

KingofBlades wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:That quote is not valid and it has been discussed, lmao.

Elaborate as to why its not valid please. And even if you were to do that, there is still the plethora of sources that all depict Ben and Vader fighting as relative equals on the DS.

Ben and Vader was not equal, lol...

September 5th 2019, 5:45 pm

“Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.” (Source: Star Wars The Essential Guide to Characters)

“Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.” (Source: Star Wars Mysteries of the Jedi)

“Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.” (Source: Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack - Darth Vader)

September 5th 2019, 5:50 pm

Yeah, Vader and Kenobi are equal circa ANH. Trying to dance around that is useless.

September 5th 2019, 5:52 pm

I see no reason why Lucas' Ben > Vader quote isn't legit when it's repeated in 2011 sources as factual.

Note that EU Luke also says Ben > Vader, so it's not like Lucas' commentary comes straight out of left field.

September 5th 2019, 5:54 pm

Vader.

September 5th 2019, 6:00 pm

[In the first synopsis,] the story was very confusing and the spelling was horrible, since Lucas had never learned proper spelling or punctuation. His agent and lawyer were puzzled and did not understand the story, and it was actually due to the popularity of American Graffiti that they eventually managed to sell the film to Twentieth Century Fox—after it had been rejected by both United Artists and Universal Pictures.
A rough [draft] was completed one year later in May 1974, and still carried the title The Star Wars. It was the first of four major drafts and several revised versions... When the screenplay draft was finished, however, Lucas still thought it was a mess.
The Adventures of the Starkiller (Episode One): “The Star Wars” was the title of Lucas’s second draft which was delivered on January 28, 1975. This was a more character-driven story with more character development, which was important since Lucas wanted the film to make an emotional impact... He let his friends (among them director Francis Ford Coppola) read the scripts and tape-recorded their comments in order to get some advice. However, the suggestions from his wife Marcia (a film editor who later won an Oscar for Star Wars) were the ones he took most seriously, even though her criticism sometimes made him angry.
The third [draft] which was finished on August 1, 1975 was called The Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Starkiller, and by this time, most of the plot was established. Lucas felt quite comfortable with his characters, but he still thought that the dialogue needed improvement, and was very concerned that his story might never make it to the silver screen.
Lucas’s revised fourth draft was the one which was used when filming began in Tunisia on March 25, 1976. A slightly edited version of this draft, entitled Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope—From the Journal of the Whills, was published in 1979 as the official screenplay of the film (the final editing of that public version [of the fourth draft]—erroneously dated to January 15, 1976—was done after Star Wars went into production, probably after the film’s May 1977 release).
Lucas had consulted his co-writers from American Graffiti (Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz) to sharpen the dialogue, which he felt lacked humour and bounce, and although he rejected most of what they came up with, their new ideas gave Lucas renewed confidence in his work

Do you really believe some Spanish quote pointing out that Vader being weaker than Kenobi is valid? Goddamn script has been changed and revised so many times and THIS spanish quote which has no source can be trusted? Besides that, the screenplay and everything was written in English. Translation always creates problems which is why so many people and I try to read the original of a product.

September 5th 2019, 6:01 pm

I mean if it was English, it still wouldn't be valid since it was the early testings of characters and scaling.

September 5th 2019, 6:03 pm

Why does it being Spanish change its validity? And the fact it was an early conception is irrelevant if it's apparently still the reason in modern-day.

September 5th 2019, 6:05 pm

HellfireUnit wrote:I mean if it was English, it still wouldn't be valid since it was the early testings of characters and scaling.

"Early testings of characters and scaling" are only invalid if they were overridden later on. Lucas's opinion was never stated to have changed, therefore it is still valid. Also wasn't the statement made after ANH came out. Meaning they were already past the "early testings of characters and scaling".