Vong Krayt vs Darth Vader

Azronger wrote:Which Vong Krayt? During Vector or at the start of the series?

Ziggy wrote:Pretty much any Sith Lord with serious fame, the ability to cast lightning and a hold a lightsaber will beat Vader, the guy regularly challenged by padawans, and empirically worse than TPM Kenobi.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:Vong Krayt turns Vader inside out with a glare. 
None of Vader’s TK feats beat out K’kruhk’s. His comparisons with Anakin and Ben are always in the others favor, generally from the higher sources as well. His comparisons with both ESB Luke and ROTJ Luke are tied for and against him. Any scaling chain you can make with him has a counter that generally puts him far below the likes of B-team.

Vader’s best shit is probably the generic, he’s very powerful shit, something that literally the entire Prequel Trilogy Jedi Order gets from Labyrinth of Evil.

Vader, when you really look at him, is that dude who can slaughter fodder and reasonably skilled Jedi (not at all unique among the likes of Quinlan Vos) yet generally has trouble with it.

A tier 4 will never beat a tier 8.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:I’m not trolling SithSauce, Vader, while not intended to be a tier 4 in the EU, comes across as one. They never actually retconned his sub TPM Kenobi Lucas intent, all he has done is stomp fodder, or have difficulty with fodder. He has embarrassing performances half the time and saying someone is on his level makes them look bad. The Resurrection fight is also non-continuity per the latest Chee quote, so Vader no longer has anything that holds him high. His feats (mainly TK) while impressive (nearing K’kruhk’s ship feat, but still below), aren’t unprecedented, and he is commonly given more challenge from quantifiable fodder than the likes of Savage Opress are given by Council Members. I was pro Vader, two things changed that, but the main thing was that he makes anyone in his general range look like literal shit.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:I’m not trolling SithSauce, Vader, while not intended to be a tier 4 in the EU, comes across as one. They never actually retconned his sub TPM Kenobi Lucas intent, all he has done is stomp fodder, or have difficulty with fodder. He has embarrassing performances half the time and saying someone is on his level makes them look bad. The Resurrection fight is also non-continuity per the latest Chee quote, so Vader no longer has anything that holds him high. His feats (mainly TK) while impressive (nearing K’kruhk’s ship feat, but still below), aren’t unprecedented, and he is commonly given more challenge from quantifiable fodder than the likes of Savage Opress are given by Council Members. I was pro Vader, two things changed that, but the main thing was that he makes anyone in his general range look like literal shit.

Reynard (Ethanion) wrote:1. Some of them you can really prove are fodder, such as the Dark Woman. That is both a much later example, and one who is semi quantifiable. She’s known to be particularly brutal, yet loses to Hett in sparing matches, her thoughts on the likes of Aurra Sing are also telling. Anyhow, other characters like Bultar Swan might have one decent skill accolade, but have nothing else really. Roan Shyrne has some vague accolade about being part of the Old Guard, which is basically just being a candidate for the Council from the information given in DL:RODV. Regardless, comparing a bunch of feats against really at best unquantifiable Jedi, against say, Volfe Karkko’s feat against 6 members of the Council of his time (with the accolades that simply being on the Council provides) and we have a feat that we can actually judge to some degree. 

2. That’s because Dooku and Caedus get quantifiably great feats as well, and Dooku in particular has his anti showings happen in a medium where everyone gets them, and actually, still is quite impressive within that medium. Dooku, surrounded on all sides by pirates, without a lightsaber, can kill half of them before getting shot. Maul, getting shot at from only one side, by half the pirates, gets shot, kills none.

3. Those quotes (there are more than one) are merely to get the intent down, some are more obvious than just the vague prime of the Jedi as well. I have one from Ewan for instance talking about how the PT was going to show how the Jedi from the PT were more skilled and powerful than those in the OT, and how that is what the TPM fight was going to show. There is also the Pablo Hildago quote. And then the 2019 interview where Lucas again alludes to this. I’ll be making a longer post later going through the entire argument, but it boils down to this:
 A) Almost all of Vader’s accolades have 3 times as many going in the opposite direction, generally from higher sources.
 B) His force feats (TK) are surpassed by people TPM Kenobi scales far above (K’kruhk).
 C) His dueling feats, are once again unquantifiable and still surpassed by people TPM Kenobi scales above.

We can continue this later, where I’ll post all the sources and arguments, but I’ve just never seen any good reason to hold Vader above TPM Kenobi.

Basileus wrote:1. Lucas wasn’t referring to power
2. Pretty sure the 80 percent crap was before the PT was even made. Even then, it’s a pretty vague quote to use as a power base. And again, Vader hasn’t demonstrated he’s anywhere near that level - it’s all hype, but when he has to prove it, he’s lacklustre as hell

SithSauce wrote:

Basileus wrote:1. Lucas wasn’t referring to power
2. Pretty sure the 80 percent crap was before the PT was even made. Even then, it’s a pretty vague quote to use as a power base. And again, Vader hasn’t demonstrated he’s anywhere near that level - it’s all hype, but when he has to prove it, he’s lacklustre as hell

1. What do you mean? The interview in it's context was about how Vader failed to live up to his true potential. Lucas was saying how he was on his way to surpassing Sidious, but Kenobi screwed that up on Mustafar. From then on he was not as strong as Palpatine, he was like Maul or Dooku. He is clearly referring to power here.
2. G-canon hype you mean?

PeraltaEagle45 wrote:I'd hesitate to call An'ya Kuro "fodder" given she can move through solid matter at will and is greatly revered by some pretty potent Jedi. Comparing poorly to Hett and being wary of Sing aren't even bad comparisons. Sing had only a short time prior nearly stalemated Kenobi & Jinn, and Hett even as a Padawan was stronger than Sing. So no, Kuro is not fodder.

That said it's still not a good look for Vader in their fight, as she was super old and past her prime and she still almost killed him.