General Griveous versus A'Sharad Hett

Instead of Obi-Wan, Hett fights against RotS Griveous. This is a pure saber contest and usage of offensive Force techniques (Force Push, Statis etc.) is forbidden. Hett has his standart gear and Griveous possess 4 lightsabers. Victory by death, who wins?

Grievous, good fight.

Grievous obliterates

Any reason Grievous wins?

Come back to us when prime Krayt is capable of beating Grievous my child

I was asking the adults Curry, thanks though.

*Pats head*

And you got a senior response from a vastly more accomplished and knowledgeable debater in the form of myself

Grievous obliterates if I say Grievous obliterates

Can see this going either way. Leaning Hett though, I can see his style being effective against Grievous.

Grievous stomps. Better in every way. Add the force and A'sharad still would lose heavily.

Spoiler:

Grievous easily.

Again, any reasons? Especially for Grievous stomping or winning easily.

@ILS A'Sharad Hett's best feat is holding his own and landing two blows on Obi-Wan (who hadn't duelled anyone for about 2 years) before having his arm severed and being disarmed. Grievous by contrast has tested Dooku and given Mace Windu a decent fight when he was only a short time before ROTS while the General was hindered. He's also outright overwhelmed Obi-Wan's defences which even the likes of Dooku have struggled to do. Though Obi-Wan did beat him, this is largely suggested to be due to his mastery of Soresu rather than his actual superiority as a swordsman.

BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS A'Sharad Hett's best feat is holding his own and landing two blows on Obi-Wan (who hadn't duelled anyone for about 2 years) before having his arm severed and being disarmed. Grievous by contrast has tested Dooku and given Mace Windu a decent fight when he was only a short time before ROTS while the General was hindered. He's also outright overwhelmed Obi-Wan's defences which even the likes of Dooku have struggled to do. Though Obi-Wan did beat him, this is largely suggested to be due to his mastery of Soresu rather than his actual superiority as a swordsman.

1. Kenobi kept up his training per the text in the novel, and Kenobi is glad he did now that he has to fight Hett.

2. Grievous was schooled in sparring by Dooku and only had a brief, inconclusive exchange with Windu. He lost rapidly to Kenobi. The text says he "overwhelmed" Kenobi's defence but he didn't actually break it. The text notes immediately after that Obi-Wan makes a slight change to the angle of his blade and disarms Grievous. He then disarms him of two more lightsabers. Grievous then runs for his life.

3. The Kenobi Hett fought is the one who had let go of all of his attachments. This let Kenobi go from being blasted by Vader, his blows knocked aside contemptuously and his bones bending from the strength of Vader's strikes, to "countering and deflecting" Vader's TK blasts and meeting all of his strikes evenly. A very noticeable increase in overall power just due to this one profound shift in Kenobi's mind state. This was something that stayed with him, as he performed the fastest speed feat in recorded history shortly after the Mustafar duel. He moved so fast his body nearly disintegrated (keeping his body intact is a feat in of itself).

If you want to suggest that Kenobi's performance dipped from here, even though it's noted he kept up his reflexes through training, and even though he sought Hett specifically to put an end to his reign of terror on Tatooine and to protect Luke... the onus is on you to prove it.

Can Grievous win? It's possible. Does he stomp? Seems far fetched since he did worse against a worse version of Kenobi.

BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS A'Sharad Hett's best feat is holding his own and landing two blows on Obi-Wan (who hadn't duelled anyone for about 2 years) before having his arm severed and being disarmed. Grievous by contrast has tested Dooku and given Mace Windu a decent fight when he was only a short time before ROTS while the General was hindered. He's also outright overwhelmed Obi-Wan's defences which even the likes of Dooku have struggled to do. Though Obi-Wan did beat him, this is largely suggested to be due to his mastery of Soresu rather than his actual superiority as a swordsman.

1. Kenobi kept up his training per the text in the novel, and Kenobi is glad he did now that he has to fight Hett.

2. Grievous was schooled in sparring by Dooku and only had a brief, inconclusive exchange with Windu. He lost rapidly to Kenobi. The text says he "overwhelmed" Kenobi's defence but he didn't actually break it. The text notes immediately after that Obi-Wan makes a slight change to the angle of his blade and disarms Grievous. He then disarms him of two more lightsabers. Grievous then runs for his life.

3. The Kenobi Hett fought is the one who had let go of all of his attachments. This let Kenobi go from being blasted by Vader, his blows knocked aside contemptuously and his bones bending from the strength of Vader's strikes, to "countering and deflecting" Vader's TK blasts and meeting all of his strikes evenly. A very noticeable increase in overall power just due to this one profound shift in Kenobi's mind state. This was something that stayed with him, as he performed the fastest speed feat in recorded history shortly after the Mustafar duel. He moved so fast his body nearly disintegrated (keeping his body intact is a feat in of itself).

If you want to suggest that Kenobi's performance dipped from here, even though it's noted he kept up his reflexes through training, and even though he sought Hett specifically to put an end to his reign of terror on Tatooine and to protect Luke... the onus is on you to prove it.

Can Grievous win? It's possible. Does he stomp? Seems far fetched since he did worse against a worse version of Kenobi.

ILS wrote:Any reason Grievous wins?

There are a few, however, TCW muddies the waters. 

Obi-Wan fights Grievous at a Terrain advantage deliberately draws him onto a relatively narrow catwalk, preventing the cyborg from swarming him in all directions. 

Obi-Wan fights Hett at Terrain disadvantage, he's not as used to the heat or how the sand softens his footwork. 

He wins both occasions and is said to be optimised to fight the former by Mace. And while we're talking about styles, Grievous' would be a radical experience compared to anything Hett has encountered (4 lightsabers, opposable joints, spinning vertebrate) whereas Hett, Jarkai Niman, isn't really outside the normative window by Jedi standards. 

Grievous also has better showings against Mace and the Jedi on Hypori.

@Ziggy While the minutiae you've brought up are true, I don't see how they are determining factors.

The Mace feat is nice, but given how good Kenobi is at this point and how he is geared towards defence, I think landing two hits on him and nearly sawing him in half with your lightsaber is up there with holding out against Mace in about the time it took Fisto to mow down a couple of Magnaguards.

The Hypori feat while very good is disproportionate compared to a standard performance thanks to Grievous' shock and awe tactics. I personally don't care for the exhaustion argument. Not to mention, the best person on that team was Mundi, who doesn't really have much to his name other than briefly clashing blades with a smirking Ventress.

1. Kenobi kept up his training per the text in the novel, and Kenobi is glad he did now that he has to fight Hett.

Never said he was rusty, just thought it worth noting for context. 

2. Grievous was schooled in sparring by Dooku

Dooku is definitely > Grievous, but Grievous has managed to test him more than once.


There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg. But then, Dooku had kept some secrets to himself. Just in case.

and only had a brief, inconclusive exchange with Windu.

My point was that he went toe to toe with a fully mobile Mace for a short time while hindered and came close to killing Mace a couple of times during the fight. He did all of this while hindered. Short or not, he still held his own against Mace. 

He lost rapidly to Kenobi. The text says he "overwhelmed" Kenobi's defence but he didn't actually break it. The text notes immediately after that Obi-Wan makes a slight change to the angle of his blade and disarms Grievous. He then disarms him of two more lightsabers. Grievous then runs for his life.

It's also noted that this is pretty much something only Kenobi could have pulled off. What Obi-Wan did was a classic Soresu manoeuvre: make your opponent angry, let them charge you, then lob off their hands/kill them when they overstep or make a mistake. What happened here was that Obi-Wan's defences couldn't hold against Grievous but because of his mastery of Soresu he was able to adapt and disarm him. 

3. The Kenobi Hett fought is the one who had let go of all of his attachments. This let Kenobi go from being blasted by Vader, his blows knocked aside contemptuously and his bones bending from the strength of Vader's strikes, to "countering and deflecting" Vader's TK blasts

When did he counter and deflect his TK blasts?

and meeting all of his strikes evenly. A very noticeable increase in overall power just due to this one profound shift in Kenobi's mind state. This was something that stayed with him, as

he performed the fastest speed feat in recorded history shortly after the Mustafar duel. He moved so fast his body nearly disintegrated (keeping his body intact is a feat in of itself).

Which feat was this, out of curiosity? Not particularly familiar with post-ROTS Kenobi. 

If you want to suggest that Kenobi's performance dipped from here, even though it's noted he kept up his reflexes through training, and even though he sought Hett specifically to put an end to his reign of terror on Tatooine and to protect Luke... the onus is on you to prove it.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that Kenobi's performance against Grievous is a false equivalence given that Obi-Wan's Soresu explicitly countered Grievous in every way during that last fight. It's not nearly the same thing as Grievous contending with Mace, for example. Their performances against Obi-Wan aren't comparable for a number of reasons. 

Can Grievous win? It's possible. Does he stomp? Seems far fetched since he did worse against a worse version of Kenobi.

Already said that they're not really comparable, and how was it a worse version of Kenobi? Obi-Wan did the same thing in his duel with Grievous, whereby he centred himself and let go of everything in order to fully embrace Soresu.

@ILS

The Kenobi Hett fought is the one who had let go of all of his attachments. 

but given how good Kenobi is at this point and how he is geared towards defence, I think landing two hits on him and nearly sawing him in half with your lightsaber

Oh I see what you're doing...

That Kenobi maintained the same emotional state he reached on Mustafar against Anakin all the way until Hett landed two paltry hits on him... two years later.  Sounds pretty convenient if you're staning Hett.  Believable, however...?  

I'm personally of the opinion that one's state of mind is more cyclic.  And the Kenobi who's fighting Hett doesn't seem to be in the "letting go of all his attachments" state until possibly right at the end of the battle, where he finishes Hett promptly.  

His inner monologue of the fight seems to imply such. 

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experi-enced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

The Life & Legend of Obi

Btw, I'm aware he's claiming not to think about the thoughts he's reciting in his mind, but that only means he is, and that he noted the terrain advantage once again amid the duel confirms such :

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

The Life & Legend of Obi

And when he disregards the technical aspects of the match, not to mention the fact he didn't want to kill his former Jedi comrade and focuses his mind on Luke's well being, he pretty much one-shots immediately

As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm.

The Life & Legend of Obi

Much like the Mustafar fight. Only this time instead of merely matching his opponent for long-duration when "letting go of his attachments" he one-shots Hett after thinking about Luke for a second.

While the minutiae you've brought up are true, I don't see how they are determining factors.

They're determining factors seen as it's a comparison involving the same character. In fact, Kenobi is probably on the Decline against Hett, so more Kudos to Grievous.

I'm curious Ziggy - what attachments is it Kenobi let go of during his fight with Anakin but regained later on?

Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.
His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin.

Essentially the only attachment you can argue Kenobi has gained since then is Luke... and that's not an attachment he has to let go. It's something he can draw on for strength, as you have argued. Him "letting go" is not an amplified state he can achieve at will, it was a lasting character development. You've provided no substantial evidence for him declining while we have a quote saying that he has carried on his Jedi exercises and maintained his reflexes, and he has also performed the greatest speed feat in history to the point of nearly disintegrating from the sheer energy output.

I'm not sure why you thought it was pertinent to bring up thoughts Kenobi was, per the text, not having, precisely because they would get him killed. What a great point in my favour: Kenobi having a stray thought about a tactical element of the fight would result in him dying.

Based on his remarkable increase in feat quality (vs. Vader and speed feat) post-letting go, something that happened after he humiliated Grievous, and based on the fact he not only kept up his Jedi exercises but now has a new and powerful motivator to fight for - Luke - it occurs to me that Hett comes out looking better here. He actually landed blows on Kenobi and was close enough to killing the defensive savant that anything less than complete focus on Kenobi's part, with not a single stray thought distracting him, would result in him being killed.

@BreakofDawn

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/why-was-obi-wan-kenobi-able-to-contend-with-darth--1901550/

That should explain where I'm coming from pretty well. It has all of the quotes you requested.

Personally, I am of the opinion that those are deep rooted fears and emotional baggage, not surface level "weak" emotions. Think of it as a man carrying a baggage for like 10 years through his journeys across country. He might encounter rain, snow, or even storm. He might have to deal with cool climate on one hand, or very cold climate on the other. He travels through many types of climates and environment. These have a noticeable effect on the difficulty, obviously.

But, imagine if he has to let go of the 20 kg baggage that he is carrying. It matters little after that if he is walking in 25 degree cool forest, or 35 degree hot city. In fact, if he is carrying the baggage in the first instance, and then lets it go in the second, the second basically becomes a lot easier than even the first.

So like, I am not sure if it is a permanent change in mindset, but it is a permanent change in emotional attachments and the like for sure. He will have "emotions" and mental turmoil still, just like the traveler has to go through forest, or city, or marsh etc. He just doesn't have the baggage that he used to basically. It could very well be a permanent change in the mental approach by him too

@ILS Mundi states to the council in the show itself that he and his friends were exhausted before the fight. Mundi doesn't have many feats either, true, but his accolades as a swordsman and showing on Hypori is pretty impressive regardless.

Grievous.

ILS wrote:I'm curious Ziggy - what attachments is it Kenobi let go of during his fight with Anakin but regained later on?

I'm curious Swords - what "attachment" does Kenobi have when fighting Grevious - or in any other instance before the vaunted duel on Mustafar - preventing him from bringing his full power to bear ?

It seems rather obvious that an emotional attachment to Anakin would hinder him in a deathmatch with Anakin... and that severing a bond with a man he called brother, now a treacherous murderer of Jedi children, helps him from dwindling in the event. 

And if we're talking about inner turmoil that is probably regained, then the Kenobi fighting Hett has to deal with the fact that the ex-apprentice he was sent to kill, is not actually dead, but is rather publicly slaughtering dissident opposition including all the remnant Jedi Kenobi knew, without the latter being able to do anything about it. 

Him "letting go" is not an amplified state he can achieve at will, it was a lasting character development. You've provided no substantial evidence for him declining 

To the contrary, you've provided no substantial reason on why his long-standing attachment to Anakin is the barrier elevating him to heights he's never seen before - rather than something he needs to let go of to fight the man himself properly without getting teary-eyed or choking up.  His "attachments" weren't stopping him from fighting Grievous at full power considering - In Kenobi's mind at least - the Republic was on the precipice of victory, the war ending with Grievous' death and Anakin is just Kenobi's - slightly troublesome; yet beloved - partner in crime, not a mad killer of children and not man he'd be sent to execute.  Kenobi doesn't have much reason to dwell - or even expend a negligent thought - to his attachments with Anakin, his obligation to the Jedi or his promise to Qui Gon in this instance, stuff that would have certainly plagued him at Mustafar, so the "letting go" meme serves to purpose to undermine Grievous as it's a character development that helps him in one fight, and one fight alone against Anakin. 

On the other hand, his decline is evident by the same source telling us he maintains his lunges and squats during his exile. It also tells us he hasn't fought with his lightsaber in actual combat for years - which is what made him so great in the first place -  and for the first time, he notes his age being a problem too.  We know, according to the Fightsaber article (and probably some other sources) that Kenobi's Exile spells his decline up until ANH. And that decline had to start somewhere. This is a premise that actually makes sense, as opposed to some wank facilitated by Kenobi's biggest fan and piggybacked by those who just want to elevate Hett/Krayt in a race to see who can out-fanboy the Ancient power's and LeGend's of the world. 

And with that in mind, it doesn't take a genius to figure out why Grevious comes out better in a direct comparison with Kenobi

With Grevious, Kenobi had an edge with the environment, wasn't out of practice, wasn't declining physically due to Old age and was trying to kill the cyborg, unlike Hett, who had every advantage listed above only to tickle a jobbing Kenobi a few times and then get bodied when he's serious.

BreakofDawn wrote:@ILS A'Sharad Hett's best feat is holding his own and landing two blows on Obi-Wan (who hadn't duelled anyone for about 2 years) before having his arm severed and being disarmed. Grievous by contrast has tested Dooku and given Mace Windu a decent fight when he was only a short time before ROTS while the General was hindered. He's also outright overwhelmed Obi-Wan's defences which even the likes of Dooku have struggled to do. Though Obi-Wan did beat him, this is largely suggested to be due to his mastery of Soresu rather than his actual superiority as a swordsman.

There is no evidence he was hindered, besides the Fact File quote, considering that it is in October 2014, it is most likely canon, not Legends