Dooku and Asajj Ventress vs Bane and Zannah

HellfireUnit wrote:

Quorian Debatist wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:I agree that Ventress performed well against better duos but those didn't use Sith Sorcery and Dark Side techniques in the battle. Otherwise Ventress is superior to both in sabers.

What if Ventress was switched out with Kit Fisto?

They should win then (inb4 Ventress stomped Fisto comments).

Can you explain how that works? That in the same novel that the entire foundation for Fisto wank is built off of, that he can get knocked out by Ventress and we can simply disregard it and still place Fisto higher?

Why will he do any better than Ventress would here? What does he have that a person with Nightsister, Sith, and Jedi experience wouldn't have?

Quorian Debatist wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:

Quorian Debatist wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:I agree that Ventress performed well against better duos but those didn't use Sith Sorcery and Dark Side techniques in the battle. Otherwise Ventress is superior to both in sabers.

What if Ventress was switched out with Kit Fisto?

They should win then (inb4 Ventress stomped Fisto comments).

Can you explain how that works? That in the same novel that the entire foundation for Fisto wank is built off of, that he can get knocked out by Ventress and we can simply disregard it and still place Fisto higher?

Why will he do any better than Ventress would here? What does he have that a person with Nightsister, Sith, and Jedi experience wouldn't have?

Sure, let me explain.

Firstly let's analyse Ventress versus Fisto:

- Ventress has an insane form advantage. Asajj uses Makashi and Kit uses Shii-Cho, the most basic form that performs extremely bad against Makashi. Makashi focuses on 1v1 melee fights, Shii-Cho is useful against multiple sabers/opponents and blasters to a certain degree. As a result, Fisto starts with a huge disadvantage.

- Fisto had a heel injury which should affect his speed and movement, Fisto's greatest strengths. Fisto being swift and incredibly fast also helped him fend off Sidious, which is superior to anything Ventress had done.

- Ventress had time to observe Fisto and his technique. Knowledge is power.

These stuff happened in Cestus Deception. Fisto had time to gain experience and improve himself through the entire Clone Wars to RotS. He almost defeated Griveous and was holding his own against Sidious briefly until he was distracted.

2 ) How Fisto would perform against Bane and Zannah:

- Fisto is one of the best swordsman the Order has ever produced. Obi-Wan Kenobi acknowledges Fisto's superior in CD. They sparred over an hour and Obi-Wan used a single Lightsaber. Fisto's form isn't suitable for dueling yet his mastery is so developed that he is able to contend with other duelists. His performance against Griveous and Sidious is a proof of that.

- Considering Zannah temporarily incapacitated Dooku with sorcery, Kit's speed and form grants a huge advantage against the duo. This is the worst scenario that could happen. Dooku is already superior to both Sith Lords significantly and the moment he is back or they failed to incapacitate him, Banite duo will lose.

This is why I think he'd be a better replacement then Ventress. His form and agility gives him a huge advantage even if Dooku is disabled. Not to mention his experience, mastery of the Force is göster than Ventress.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

@HellfireUnit honestly Fisto’s superiority to AOTC Kenobi ( because CD takes place right after the movie per essential reader’s companion) isn’t all that impressive. 
Although the fight had circumstances, Fisto was defeated very quickly and Ventress was at the very beginning of her career. Peak Ventress is clearly above Fisto.

MasterCilghal wrote:@HellfireUnit honestly Fisto’s superiority to AOTC Kenobi ( because CD takes place right after the movie per essential reader’s companion) isn’t all that impressive. 
Although the fight had circumstances, Fisto was defeated very quickly and Ventress was at the very beginning of her career. Peak Ventress is clearly above Fisto.

Not really sure. Both of them grew in power until their demise however Ventress dropped training at a certain point and Fisto kept improving. Fisto performed better against Griveous than Ventress, held his own against Sidious to some degree, which is why I think featwise Fisto is superior to Ventress. Him being able to compete with Sidious' speed is impressive, even though Mace was there as a back up. Besides that, Fisto possesses more experience and knowledge compared to her hence I think he is superior to Ventress. Peak Ventress may still beat Fisto however against Banite Duo, I think Fisto is a more suitable teammate. He could content with both Bane and Zannah due to Shii-Cho and his speed grants an incredible advantage.

HellfireUnit wrote:Sure, let me explain.

Firstly let's analyse Ventress versus Fisto:

- Ventress has an insane form advantage. Asajj uses Makashi and Kit uses Shii-Cho, the most basic form that  performs extremely bad against Makashi. Makashi focuses on 1v1 melee fights, Shii-Cho is useful against multiple sabers/opponents and blasters to a certain degree. As a result, Fisto starts with a huge disadvantage.

- Fisto had a heel injury which should affect his speed and movement, Fisto's greatest strengths. Fisto being swift and incredibly fast also helped him fend off Sidious, which is superior to anything Ventress had done.

- Ventress had time to observe Fisto and his technique. Knowledge is power.

These stuff happened in Cestus Deception. Fisto had time to gain experience and improve himself through the entire Clone Wars to RotS. He almost defeated Griveous and was holding his own against Sidious briefly until he was distracted.

2 ) How Fisto would perform against Bane and Zannah:

- Fisto is one of the best swordsman the Order has ever produced. Obi-Wan Kenobi acknowledges Fisto's superior in CD. They sparred over an hour and Obi-Wan used a single Lightsaber. Fisto's form isn't suitable for dueling yet his mastery is so developed that he is able to contend with other duelists. His performance against Griveous and Sidious is a proof of that.

- Considering Zannah temporarily incapacitated Dooku with sorcery, Kit's speed and form grants a huge advantage against the duo. This is the worst scenario that could happen. Dooku is already superior to both Sith Lords significantly and the moment he is back or they failed to incapacitate him, Banite duo will lose.

This is why I think he'd be a better replacement then Ventress. His form and agility gives him a huge advantage even if Dooku is disabled. Not to mention his experience, mastery of the Force is göster than Ventress.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

Ventress has an insane form advantage that never goes away. Making note of this is an excuse that can't change. You also try to mitigate this as much as you can in your post, and make note of how Kit can easily overcome this in this thread and against Sidious. Essentially, Ventress focuses on 1v1 fights and Kit doesn't; but look how much better Kit would do over Ventress in other 1v1 fights and this thread? Not sure I follow.

Fisto singeing his heel while wearing boots does not mean he was injured. Hell, Fisto singeing his heel while barefoot is doubtful he was impeded as well. We just experienced a fight where one guy had a broken ankle/foot that required surgery in real life, and he still fought for around 12 minutes afterward. Implying that the Force can't compensate for a singed heel makes Fisto looks like garbage. Unless you have something that specifically states that Fisto's singed heel heavily impacted his speed, then this doesn't exist. This is also funny considering how Fisto is so good because he was withholding speed against Kenobi in a spar, yet in the same novel we're assuming that a singed heel what... still puts him above that speed?
But again, Fisto was wearing boots to my recollection. Go put a torch to your shoe while your foot is inside it and see how much a singed heel slows down your footwork.

Fisto blocking some attacks where Sidious aimed while he was attacking Mace Windu does not reflect on Fisto's ability to block Sidious on his own. Fisto was just there after Sidious reflected off of Mace Windu's attacks 3 or so times. He wasn't in the fight with Sidious at any time and he was killed casually. While Ventress doesn't have a feat where she gets casually slaughtered by Sidious, she does have feats where she contends with people who have fought Sidious much better than Fisto did. She fought Maul - and even Savage - as well as Mace Windu twice. Lasted way longer than 3 strikes. She also was able to tank a surprise attack from Sai Sircu who one-shotted Kit and Obi-Wan while they were looking at her.

Ventress watched him beat up fodder while unarmed for a couple of seconds. Her learning that much from so little time to a degree where she lands a saber hit on him and knocks him cold carry over to a rematch, unfortunately. Looking for any edge you can beforehand when you know you have to fight two Jedi does not mean you gained a massive knowledge advantage. If Fisto is that predictable that he can telegraph his entire game from an unarmed fight for a short amount of time, then it's doubtful he shored up this flaw in his style. What is he going to do still constrained to this style that would give him an advantage in a rematch? What is he going to do that would make him better than Ventress in this fight when you admitted his form is weak in 1v1 dueling?

Ventress has vastly more experience than Kit throughout the Clone Wars and has fought half the Jedi Order towards the end. Hell, Ventress has fought almost everyone in the actual Clone Wars on both sides. Kit hasn't shown the type of experience needed to overcome:

"An insane form advantage"

And Ventress who has already beaten him

Saying he should have grown means little when Ventress should have grown more, and she starts higher than him.

As for Grievous, Asajj beat him in the same show. Mind you on Dathomir, but she also didn't have to offensively use the force, and it was against a later Grievous.

Fisto never held out against Sidious and he was only distracted by Sidious casually killing him when he spent a split second actually attacking Fisto.

---

Fisto is one of the best Swordsman the Order has ever produced but he starts with a disadvantage in form here. You admit this in the same paragraph. His mastery is so good he can contend with Ventress for a tiny bit until she decides to knock him out. This disadvantage would persist here as well and in the end, keep him as weaker than Ventress for this kind of thread. Also Ventress spent most of the war fighting two opponents. Implying Kit would do better based on his form when all his feats are 1v1s is odd to say the least.

At no stage in time would Kit ever be left standing while Dooku goes down. Dooku is superior to Kit in every way possible, and far faster as well.

Ventress is just as agile, if not more than Kit. She is faster. She has better feats, and force showings. She has more experience fighting two people with sabers at once. And she has more experience with sorcery than Kit.

I don't know what Force Mastery means if it doesn't translate to being better than Ventress in any way.

Not only this, but Kit Fisto is one of the few Jedi who have ever been straight up KO'ed by a strike in a fight. I don't mean by getting slammed into a wall, but by a hit. His Glass Jaw is going to seriously hinder him if he fights Darth Bane and we presume they're equal in Sabers for any length of time. Darth Bane is a very fast duelist who is 2 meters tall who heavily relies on striking his opponent physically. If Kit gets hit by Bane, it is most likely lights out.

So, not only does Kit have a 1v1 form disadvantage, but he also has to worry about surviving physical strikes. Considering he's worse than Ventress in every way possible, I really can't fathom how he'd do better than Ventress here.

Quorian Debatist wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Sure, let me explain.

Firstly let's analyse Ventress versus Fisto:

- Ventress has an insane form advantage. Asajj uses Makashi and Kit uses Shii-Cho, the most basic form that  performs extremely bad against Makashi. Makashi focuses on 1v1 melee fights, Shii-Cho is useful against multiple sabers/opponents and blasters to a certain degree. As a result, Fisto starts with a huge disadvantage.

- Fisto had a heel injury which should affect his speed and movement, Fisto's greatest strengths. Fisto being swift and incredibly fast also helped him fend off Sidious, which is superior to anything Ventress had done.

- Ventress had time to observe Fisto and his technique. Knowledge is power.

These stuff happened in Cestus Deception. Fisto had time to gain experience and improve himself through the entire Clone Wars to RotS. He almost defeated Griveous and was holding his own against Sidious briefly until he was distracted.

2 ) How Fisto would perform against Bane and Zannah:

- Fisto is one of the best swordsman the Order has ever produced. Obi-Wan Kenobi acknowledges Fisto's superior in CD. They sparred over an hour and Obi-Wan used a single Lightsaber. Fisto's form isn't suitable for dueling yet his mastery is so developed that he is able to contend with other duelists. His performance against Griveous and Sidious is a proof of that.

- Considering Zannah temporarily incapacitated Dooku with sorcery, Kit's speed and form grants a huge advantage against the duo. This is the worst scenario that could happen. Dooku is already superior to both Sith Lords significantly and the moment he is back or they failed to incapacitate him, Banite duo will lose.

This is why I think he'd be a better replacement then Ventress. His form and agility gives him a huge advantage even if Dooku is disabled. Not to mention his experience, mastery of the Force is göster than Ventress.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

Ventress has an insane form advantage that never goes away. Making note of this is an excuse that can't change. You also try to mitigate this as much as you can in your post, and make note of how Kit can easily overcome this in this thread and against Sidious. Essentially, Ventress focuses on 1v1 fights and Kit doesn't; but look how much better Kit would do over Ventress in other 1v1 fights and this thread? Not sure I follow.

Fisto singing his heel while wearing boots does not mean he was injured. Hell, Fisto singing his heel while barefoot is doubtful he was impeded as well. We just experienced a fight where one guy had a broken ankle/foot that required surgery in real life, and he still fought for around 12 minutes afterward. Implying that the Force can't compensate for a singed heel makes Fisto looks like garbage. Unless you have something that specifically states that Fisto's singed heel heavily impacted his speed, then this doesn't exist. This is also funny considering how Fisto is so good because he was withholding speed against Kenobi in a spar, yet in the same novel we're assuming that a singed heel what... still puts him above that speed?
But again, Fisto was wearing boots to my recollection. Go put a torch to your shoe while your foot is inside it and see how much a singed heel slows down your footwork.

Fisto blocking some attacks where Sidious aimed while he was attacking Mace Windu does not reflect on Fisto's ability to block Sidious on his own. Fisto was just there after Sidious reflected off of Mace Windu's attacks 3 or so times. He wasn't in the fight with Sidious at any time and he was killed casually. While Ventress doesn't have a feat where she gets casually slaughtered by Sidious, she does have feats where she contends with people who have fought Sidious much better than Fisto did. She fought Maul - and even Savage - as well as Mace Windu twice. Lasted way longer than 3 strikes. She also was able to tank a surprise attack from Sai Sircu who one-shotted Kit and Obi-Wan while they were looking at her.

Ventress watched him beat up fodder while unarmed for a couple of seconds. Her learning that much from so little time to a degree where she lands a saber hit on him and knocks him cold carry over to a rematch, unfortunately. Looking for any edge you can beforehand when you know you have to fight two Jedi does not mean you gained a massive knowledge advantage. If Fisto is that predictable that he can telegraph his entire game from an unarmed fight for a short amount of time, then it's doubtful he shored up this flaw in his style. What is he going to do still constrained to this style that would give him an advantage in a rematch? What is he going to do that would make him better than Ventress in this fight when you admitted his form is weak in 1v1 dueling?

Ventress has vastly more experience than Kit throughout the Clone Wars and has fought half the Jedi Order towards the end. Hell, Ventress has fought almost everyone in the actual Clone Wars on both sides. Kit hasn't shown the type of experience needed to overcome:

"An insane form advantage"

And Ventress who has already beaten him

Saying he should have grown means little when Ventress should have grown more, and she starts higher than him.

As for Grievous, Asajj beat him in the same show. Mind you on Dathomir, but she also didn't have to offensively use the force, and it was against a later Grievous.

Fisto never held out against Sidious and he was only distracted by Sidious casually killing him when he spent a split second actually attacking Fisto.

---

Fisto is one of the best Swordsman the Order has ever produced but he starts with a disadvantage in form here. You admit this in the same paragraph. His mastery is so good he can contend with Ventress for a tiny bit until she decides to knock him out. This disadvantage would persist here as well and in the end, keep him as weaker than Ventress for this kind of thread. Also Ventress spent most of the war fighting two opponents. Implying Kit would do better based on his form when all his feats are 1v1s is odd to say the least.

At no stage in time would Kit ever be left standing while Dooku goes down. Dooku is superior to Kit in every way possible, and far faster as well.

Ventress is just as agile, if not more than Kit. She is faster. She has better feats, and force showings. She has more experience fighting two people with sabers at once. And she has more experience with sorcery than Kit.

I don't know what Force Mastery means if it doesn't translate to being better than Ventress in any way.

Not only this, but Kit Fisto is one of the few Jedi who have ever been straight up KO'ed by a strike in a fight. I don't mean by getting slammed into a wall, but by a hit. His Glass Jaw is going to seriously hinder him if he fights Darth Bane and we presume they're equal in Sabers for any length of time. Darth Bane is a very fast duelist who is 2 meters tall who heavily relies on striking his opponent physically. If Kit gets hit by Bane, it is most likely lights out.

So, not only does Kit have a 1v1 form disadvantage, but he also has to worry about surviving physical strikes. Considering he's worse than Ventress in every way possible, I really can't fathom how he'd do better than Ventress here.

Thanks for the reply. It appears I was wrong. In the end, I thought Fisto would do better than Ventress against the Banite duo due to his speed and Shii-Cho if Dooku would go down briefly. I appreciate the effort you put in and my mind has changed.

Bran ragdolling just like Grey does.

Bran shitstomping

O-Siri wrote:That "innate barrier" quote only applies to basic telepathy

Feel free to put the goalposts back where you found them once you're done reading this

So Leia managed to keep Luke from peaking into her subconscious. Big whoop.

That's not how it works and you damn well know it. Leia didn't even try to defend. You don't have to defend for this to work. 

Luke reached to the back of her mind, an area of deep primal memories but little conscious thought. He doubted he could get any defensive reaction there, but no attacker would be likely to strike at such places. Her thoughts were like a map laid out in front of him, and Luke touched inward to an isolated nub in her mind. He pushed--
And suddenly felt as if a giant invisible palm had planted itself on his chest and shoved backward. Luke stumbled to keep his balance, taking two steps away from her. Leia's eyes went wide, and her mouth dropped open in surprise.
- Jedi Search

When he reached the inner recess the barrier responded, automatically. Now note the bold section and note how the barrier was triggered. 

Now how do Zannah's spells work again? Oh yes

Weaving her fingers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two

Zannah's assault began as a sharp pain in his skull, like a hot knife stabbing directly into his brain before carving down to slice the two hemispheres in half. Then the knife exploded, sending a million burning shards in every direction. Each one burrowed into his subconscious, seeking out buried fears and nightmares only to rip them free and haul them to the surface.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Now, for the last time, let's see the guidebook quote.

The deep subconscious of a Force-sensitive person is shielded by a protective barrier which prevents another Force wielder from penetrating his or her inner mind. This shield pushes violently back at an intruder, sending him or her stumbling back. This "shield" is an involuntary defense mechanism maintained by every Force sensitive person.It is one reliable way to determine which people might have the potential to become Jedi. The magnitude of the backlash generated by the shield depends on the character's strength in the Force. A person who is merely Force-sensitive will shove the intruder back by a meter. Someone with actual Force skills will produce a more intense reaction. Those with little training will send the intruder reeling back across the room. Someone who is well-trained, or who has a great deal of raw talent in the Force, might actually hurl an intruder across the room.
Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook

Hmmmmm. So Zannah's spells work by burrowing down into the deep "primal" recesses of the subconscious mind and plucking things to the surface?

The barrier is triggered when:

- Something attacks the subcouncious

- Someone reaches for primal areas and thoughts.

The shield is involuntary and reflects one true potential in the force. So Zannah will never, even be able to touch someone like Anakin. How about Dooku? Well Dooku's potential was such that he was enigmatic even to Yoda. An equal to Sidious, who has 30 generations of Banite scaling over Zannah. So safe to say she isn't doing jack to him.

Ventress? Well she quickly and easily outclassed Plo, Kit Vos etc etc in growth, two of which were considered some of the most powerful Jedi in all of history. So we'll give her a maybe. But bare minimum Zannah will need her max to affect her. And I'd like to see her do that while fending her off. Much like how she couldn't with Bane 

Hope this cleared the subject up for you

HellfireUnit got slapped into Oblivion

Grey ragdolling.

Greysentinel365 wrote:Ventress can beat either

No

Dooku solos.

@Greysentinel365

1. Yes, I'm aware the barrier is involuntary that wasn't my point. My point was the quotes you cited only show you can't breach the barrier with basic telepathy. Luke used only basic telepathy during practice and the Jedi recruiters in Tales of the Jedi are similarly only using simple mind-probing. 

2. Sorcery is far more complex and difficult to defend against. You can't compare basic telepathy with Sorcery, no more than you can compare Force pushes with Lightning.

Dynasty of Evil wrote:Sith sorcery was as much a part of the dark side as the deadly violet bolts of energy her Master unleashed from his hands, and when Bane had first recognized her talent for the subtle but devastating magics he had encouraged her studies into the arcane.

...

That didn't mean he was unprepared, however. Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.

3. Nothing in that Tales from the Jedi quote suggests you need more potential to repel intruders, you made that part up. Only that you need to be mildly Force-sensitive at all. We know that in practice you don't have to be even close in Force ability or power to repel basic Force attacks, Bane and Kas'im being the most notable example.

Dooku solos

Ventress has no form advantage over Fisto.