Asajj Ventress vs Satele Shan

- Morals on, in character 
- No prep rime or prior knowledge 
- Both in prime of course 
- fight takes place in an open field that has many objects of all different sides to manipulate

Probably Ventress however I'd entertain arguments for Satele.

DC77 wrote:Probably Ventress however I'd entertain arguments for Satele.

Ventress wins in a really tough fight in my opinion, I could definitely see an argument for Satele as well tho

Satele rather handily.

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Satele rather handily.

What makes you say so?

@Blade_Of_Dorin Yeah there's definitely arguments to be had in her favour however unless somebody provides and articulates said arguments well enough I'd be more inclined to favour Ventress.

If we're allowed to figure Satele's comparable to Marr, then she wins. Otherwise, I don't think we have enough to tell.

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:

ArkhamAsylum3 wrote:Satele rather handily.

What makes you say so?

She's acknowledged as equal to Marr (by Marr himself) who imo has better feats, hype and scaling than Ventress.

@[url=/u21]ArkhamAsylum3[/url]  Eh, Im hesitant to place Satele as an equal to Marr solely just because Marr said so

Ventress is the superior duelist which probably gives her the win

Gonna say Satele.

Let's start with this then: what puts Marr above Ventress? Assuming him and Satele truly are equal which other than Marr saying so (and in what capacity I'm not sure) we have no way to verify.

I'm presuming Marr is the beneficiary of certain feats or scaling that are of a higher magnitude than Ventress, or certain accolades attesting to his mastery of combat?

@ILS: I'd put both Marr's utter domination of Darth Lachris (especially in comparison to Act II Barsen'thor's fight against Lachris) and indifference to Nox even after watching her "utterly destroy" Thanaton as indication he's beyond Ventress.

Marr is definitely one of my favourite TOR characters. Not a sadistic asshole like 99% of Sith you associate with.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@ILS: I'd put both Marr's utter domination of Darth Lachris (especially in comparison to Act II Barsen'thor's fight against Lachris) and indifference to Nox even after watching her "utterly destroy" Thanaton as indication he's beyond Ventress.

This tbh. Also, his scaling above Act 3 Nox and EW 2 via the quote saying he was "second to none in the empire" post Act 3.

Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@[url=/u21]ArkhamAsylum3[/url]  Eh, Im hesitant to place Satele as an equal to Marr solely just because Marr said so

Well I mean IIRC Satele agreed with Marr. Moreover, they generally seemed to be portrayed as such throughout SOR, KOTFE and KOTET.

Shan probably. She loses in sabers though.

Asajj, easily.

IF Satele is ~ Marr, she should wipe the floor with Ventress. Marr has implied parity with Malgus, casual domination of Lachris, and is arguably > post-Act 3 Empire's Wrath and Darth Nox.

Why would any of that let Satele wipe the floor with Ventress? Even as of 22BBY, Ventress was contending with or impressing some of the best fighters of her age, and she had accolades like being "more than a match for the Republic's greatest Jedi". In two years' time, she was causing disturbances in the Force that concerned Sidious himself, and was constantly growing in power even after that. Ventress and Grievous have been interchangeably ranked above one another, but she has been pretty decisively ranked above any of Dooku's other associates, meaning Sora Bulq, Quinlan Vos, Saato and Trenox, etc. She's fully capable of contending with Malgus, the Wrath etc. and beating Lachris decisively, if not easily.

@Nova:

Why would any of that let Satele wipe the floor with Ventress?

I won't vouch behind SithArchaeologist's claim that it's an stomp - not yet, at least - but I'll back a decisive victory for Marr. 

Even as of 22BBY, she was contending with or impressing some of the best fighters of her age

Which fights are you particularly most impressed about? Because I can certainly name fights that I was not impressed about.

and she had accolades like being "more than a match for the Republic's greatest Jedi".

I'm not sure why generic, hyperbole accolades that are rendered false the moment they are taken literally is important. 

In two years' time, she was causing disturbances in the Force that concerned Sidious himself. 

And how do you reckon we interpret that? I'd figure Palpatine dislikes the idea of powerful dark Jedi under the thrall of the being most likely to try to usurp him roaming around. To drop you a question -- if we plop Marr in the Clone Wars era as the secret apprentice of Dooku, do you think Palpatine wouldn't be concerned?

Also note that Palpatine's concerned about Vader in Return of the Jedi despite being able to nigh-instantly kill him in a one-on-one confrontation.

Ventress and Grievous have been interchangeably ranked above one another as well.

I'm not sure Ventress' interchangeability with (early) Grievous helps us gauge how her abilities stack against someone like Marr. Grievous and Marr have almost entirely different skill sets and pose as completely different sorts of threats. Unless you want to try to scale Ventress alongside Grievous' fights? 

She's fully capable of contending with Malgus, the Wrath etc. and beating Lachris decisively, if not easily.

@ILS who do think wins?

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Nova:

I won't vouch behind SithArchaeologist's claim that it's an stomp - not yet, at least - but I'll back a decisive victory for Marr. 

How decisive? I'm open to him winning, but what I contested was his "wiping the floor" with her.

Which fights are you particularly most impressed about? Because I can certainly name fights that I was not impressed about.

We know she was a match for Anakin on Yavin IV, this being an Anakin who had grown since AotC (and we know Anakin can consistently grow noticeably in a mere day — Jedi Trial). I seem to recall Gillard saying that by AotC, Anakin was already better than Obi-Wan, although some of the quotes he gives in RotS implies that he only did so after AotC. We also know that, a month into Dooku's employ, Ventress forced pre-Shatterpoint Mace to "use all his skills" to defeat her. Those are both pretty impressive.

And Sidious, Dooku etc. all found Ventress' skills to be impressive.

I'm not sure why generic, hyperbole accolades that are rendered false the moment they are taken literally is important.

Is there a reason to believe Marr's accolades aren't "generic" or "hyperbole"? There's certainly a case to be made that they won't look accurate if we contrast them against actual showings.

It's "important" in that it clearly denotes her as an exceptional talent, part of the attribution of legendary Jedi-killing/fighting status to her in an age where the Jedi are said to be in their prime.

And how do you reckon we interpret that? I'd figure Palpatine dislikes the idea of powerful dark Jedi under the thrall of the being most likely to try to usurp him roaming around. To drop you a question -- if we plop Marr in the Clone Wars era as the secret apprentice of Dooku, do you think Palpatine wouldn't be concerned?

You seem to be imagining what I said. I haven't made any comparisons to Marr, other than asserting that he wouldn't be wiping the floor with Ventress. This was supposed to be an example of why.

As for interpretations, Star Wars Fact File 67 gives us a pretty direct one: that if Ventress grew any stronger, then there was a chance that she and Dooku could overthrow Palpatine if they joined forces.

Also note that Palpatine's concerned about Vader in Return of the Jedi despite being able to nigh-instantly kill him in a one-on-one confrontation.

Palpatine has remarked in retrospect that Vader was "strong enough to kill [him]", and there are some other examples of the Emperor making a more favourable assessment of how Vader's power compared to his than you have. After all, it isn't clear that Palpatine is able to "nigh-instantly kill him" on account of sheer power as opposed to a combination of that and other factors.

I'm not sure Ventress' interchangeability with (early) Grievous helps us gauge how her abilities stack against someone like Marr. Grievous and Marr have almost entirely different skill sets and pose as completely different sorts of threats. Unless you want to try to scale Ventress alongside Grievous' fights? 

Ventress' interchangeable rankings with Grievous don't appear to be limited to their early incarnations. And it's not like Ventress and Grievous have identical skillsets, but that hasn't prohibited some sort of comparison between the two of them. Ventress is also ranked above Durge, although that might be even more difficult to compare. Grievous at least has saber feats to compare with other Force wielders, and frankly his (stomping Magnaguards pre-training, easily beating two Jedi superior to Foul Moudama and Roron Corobb, matching Maul, seriously challenging Dooku on occasion, briefly matching Mace at a disadvantage, etc.) are as good as anything the TOR crew have to offer.

Ventress' superiority to Dooku's other Dark Jedi acolytes could be more useful as a starting point for comparison. We know that (possibly by 22BBY alone) she was stronger than the likes of Trenox and Saato (who could each incapacitate post-AotC Anakin, if circumstantially), Quinlan Vos (who could dominate Aayla Secura and K'krukh) and Sora Bulq (who was demonstrably superior to Vos during their last battle). This all seems relatively in the same ballpark as the names that we're hearing from the TOR side.

Good post. I'll aim to continue the discussion tomorrow. @Nova