Reborn Krayt vs Vitiate

Instead of Revan Reborn, the Reborn Darth Krayt walks into Vitiate's throne room in the Revan Novel. 

All things kept the same, aside from the fact Krayt is fresh for the fight. Who wins, and by what margin?

I'll back Vitiate in a good fight. Open to hearing arguments for Krayt though.

Krayt dies.

Krayt wins. It's important to remember that Revan could have defeated Vitiate that day had the distance between the combatants not been so great (this was a point of emphasis in the novel, Revan stuns Vitiate temporarily but is unable to close in time). Prime Krayt is leagues more powerful than that version of Revan. I'd argue peak Krayt likely takes peak Vitiate as well.

Vitiate murders. Vitiate scales over Revan, who scales over Malak's massive Exiles scaling. Regardless of how conservatively you want to argue Muur's relevance against Krayt, it isn't making up for how ludicrously beyond Muur that Malak is.

I am also siding with Vitiate.

Krayt claps him.

Vitiate wins. Malak >>>>>>>>>> Muur, which scales to screw with Krayt.

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Vitiate wins. Malak >>>>>>>>>> Muur, which scales to screw with Krayt.

Not sold, personally. There are many problems with the scaling you're outlining and it's likely that you're overstating the margins beyond what can be proven.

Probably, but I’m on mobile, and don’t have time to string together an actual argument.

No matter how much you argue those points, the difference in power between Malak and Muur cannot be overstated. It'd be incredibly generous to suggest that said gap is as small as even the most conservative estimate the anti-Muur arguments have claimed.

To be clear, are you saying Malak is further away from Muur than Krayt, or just Vitiate?

Like I said, I'm not sold at the moment. Is there a central blog where this scaling has been emphasised?

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Probably, but I’m on mobile, and don’t have time to string together an actual argument.

http://suspectinsight.forumotion.com/t14-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-darth-krayt-azronger-vs-darth-tyranus-arkhamasylum3

You should read this debate to see why the Muur scaling doesn't work.

If someone could:

-Quantify with some precision the "Muur scaling"
-Mitigate the fact Krayt was horrendously weakened in Vector and a far cry from the power he would achieve after his rebirth
-Mitigate the fact Celeste Morne drawing on Muur's power is much more powerful than Muur alone

Then that would be swell. As it stands though the comparison seems extremely faulty.

Ajunta Pall affirms in KotOR that the source of the Exiles' power, not just singularly but collectively, was the Star Map on Korriban. Darth Malak's source of power was the Star Forge which already normally dwarfs any of the maps; as the stated 'pinnacle' of Rakatan power, and yet he took it to 300% power capacity by the time a majorly tired and hindered Revan kills him.

Yeah, I'm not convinced by Muur scaling placing Vitiate above Reborn Krayt tbh.

Everyone is amped so much on the star forge the even the average Jedi can still press the average amped dark jedi

What an incredible source of power

Except the levels of scaling put it far beyond doubt. Ajunta Pall even refers to Revan's power as 'blinding' yet that's a Revan hindered by Korriban and far before his prime in KotOR. A Revan who would get stomped by Malak, no less. Muur was merely Pall's Shadow Hand at the time.

The Revan that Vitiate faced was far and away much stronger than the hindered one that killed Malak, yet Vitiate mopped up Revan pretty handily once they got into the only real power exchange of their fight.

Like I said, all the conservativism you can muster surrounding the Muur/Krayt comparison isn't going to make a difference given how Malak alone at least replicates the power gap between Muur and Krayt that supposedly exists.

LadyKulvax wrote:Ajunta Pall affirms in KotOR that the source of the Exiles' power, not just singularly but collectively, was the Star Map on Korriban. Darth Malak's source of power was the Star Forge which already normally dwarfs any of the maps; as the stated 'pinnacle' of Rakatan power, and yet he took it to 300% power capacity by the time a majorly tired and hindered Revan kills him.

So instead of Midichlorians, the source of their power was this Star Map? Or instead of military, material or political power, it was the star map? Did they brandish it in battle like an amulet? More details needed.

Also need more details on Malak. I don't currently see why I need to accept that he scales over the Exiles.

Also, source for Revan being majorly tired?

Except the levels of scaling put it far beyond doubt. Ajunta Pall even refers to Revan's power as 'blinding' yet that's a Revan hindered by Korriban and far before his prime in KotOR. A Revan who would get stomped by Malak, no less. Muur was merely Pall's Shadow Hand at the time.

Maul referred to 10 year old Anakin as a nexus in the Force. Reading someone's Force signature doesn't really tell you about their applicable power in a fight. Muur was Pall's Shadow Hand, true, but the Exiles were also all trying to kill each other. Whatever hierarchy they maintained was tenuous, thus there's no reason to be sure about who was more powerful than who and by what margins.

The Revan that Vitiate faced was far and away much stronger than the hindered one that killed Malak, yet Vitiate mopped up Revan pretty handily once they got into the only real power exchange of their fight.

Why is he "far and away" stronger? And Revan did very well for himself despite the hindrance of the nexus which in turn amped Vitiate. In fact it's a double nexus - the planet and the citadel itself. In reality him and Vitiate are probably pretty close on neutral ground.

Like I said, all the conservativism you can muster surrounding the Muur/Krayt comparison isn't going to make a difference given how Malak alone at least replicates the power gap between Muur and Krayt that supposedly exists

That remains to be seen. Krayt was pre-prime and extremely weakened going into fighting Celeste-Muur in a very quantifiable way, and it's also very likely that Celeste-Muur outclass Muur by himself.


In other words, if you don't overstate the gap between Muur and Malak/Vitiate, and you don't ignore all of the real mitigating factors between the Muur/Krayt comparisons to begin with, you aren't left with much.

Krayt.

Krayt

ILS wrote:
Celeste-Muur outclass Muur by himself.

It's also worth noting that Legacy Muur had at bare minimum around 150 years more time than past Muur to contemplate the dark side and discipline his mind or whatever.

LSDMB wrote:

ILS wrote:
Celeste-Muur outclass Muur by himself.

It's also worth noting that Legacy Muur had at bare minimum around 150 years more time than past Muur to contemplate the dark side and discipline his mind or whatever.

Correct. Also, there's a marked difference between Celeste when she first emerged during Dark Times and the one who has been around for a century and a half acquainting herself with the amulet's power and becoming more ..comfortable.. with Muur inside her head.

It's kind of funny. On-paper if you told someone that Y is a normal Force user, but X is that Force user stuffed inside another powerful Force user with a century of experience over them, it'd be a no-brainer that X wins.

I mean an exception to this is Ragnos possessing Tavion, but Tavion's body also reduced to ash as a result of this, which didn't happen with Morne.

Krayt, 10/10. His power is good enough to handle anything Vitiate can throw at him and when he closes the gap, Tenebrae gets the Maul treatment, a la TPM.


Make is SW:ToR Vitiate and we have ourselves a debate.

SWTOR Vitiate from the JK story is weaker than the novel version.