SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

;)

@Greysentinel365 Did you forget about this?

I don't see how Han and Leia's speculation about her age having an effect on her abilities is of any particular importance to the discussion at hand. Barring a few noteworthy exceptions, most of which take place under entirely different circumstances, it's generally the case that force users increase as the years go by, if anything.

Let’s say we forget all of Sings issues over the years. Her ups and down and everything in between.

How much stronger could she possibly have gotten? With her cybernetic enhancements she was stalemated by Aalya Secura

[size=13]The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy facade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. 

Aurra Sing Databank[/size]

And without it when enraged was stomped by Vader.
 
Aurra is not a Skywalker, a Maul, Ventress, Dooku or Kenobi. She has no access to holocrons, texts or teachers or anything else. Likewise there are next to no Jedi for her to sharpen her skills against and she spends her time being second to Boba Fett in Bounty Hunter Ranks in the Galaxy.

The idea that Aurra has increased to any meaningful degree is reaching to say the least. And when Caedus can be taxed by Katarn of all people his struggles with Sing become all the more stark as an indicator of his standing.

But this is not my point.

Which is the logical response really. A shot landed is a confirmed kill, a TK attack isn't.

Later in this post you put forward that Jacen is in someway comparable to earlier iterations of Luke. Whom with even moderate outputs of TK could liquefy Sing. Likewise Caedus, for some reason, deemed utter TP domination the best way to go and not a simple TK grip. Despite TK only requiring the overcoming of Sing’s passive barrier (as she was caught off guard) and TP requiring, well

[size=13]The deep subconscious of a Force-sensitive person is shielded by a protective barrier which prevents another Force wielder from penetrating his or her inner mind. This shield pushes violently back at an intruder, sending him or her stumbling back. This "shield" is an involuntary defense mechanism maintained by every Force sensitive person.It is one reliable way to determine which people might have the potential to become Jedi. The magnitude of the backlash generated by the shield depends on the character's strength in the Force. A person who is merely Force-sensitive will shove the intruder back by a meter. Someone with actual Force skills will produce a more intense reaction. Those with little training will send the intruder reeling back across the room. Someone who is well-trained, or who has a great deal of raw talent in the Force, might actually hurl an intruder across the room.

- Tales of the Jedi SourceBook[/size]

Oh, the full overpowering of Sing’s force potential. And the sad part is. He can barely do that

[size=13]Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. [/size]

Even with a fear and rage boost, the element of surprise and his full power. Jacen can barely hold her. More than that,

Sing. Broke. Free.

The fact that Jacen's unable to dominate Sing without his full concentration doesn't speak to parity between the two in the slightest. It's fairly apparent that TP domination requires one of the biggest disparities in the mythos. For reference, here's Luke needing to root himself to the very heart of the force to take Unu's TK:
…
And here's this same Unu admitting he can't TP DN Jacen, somebody who's a relative ant by comparison:

Except this is thoroughly explained by the quote above. Jacen's potential, though nowhere near realised at any point in his life, is Luke level or in and around. Which puts him out of Unu's TP range given Luke’s realized power dealt with Unu. 

The Sing comparison stands. Even if Caedus posses marginally superior skill. In terms of power they’re dead even.

Mara didn't expect the ceiling to do any real damage. She was trying to trap him.

What Mara intended in this case is irrelevant. She did cause damage. A lot of it

[size=13]An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face.
….
sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation
…..
But he was hurt, and badly.

- LotF Sacrifice[/size]

And as you so helpfully pointed out. Mara suffered a similar amount herself.

So we have two heavily injured force users bleeding power continuously going at it. Neither able to incapacitate the other sounds like parity to me.

Overall, Jacen as of this time period isn't that much better than Mara, if at all in pure CQC, and is far more powerful in the force.

I severely doubt that. As you’ve pointed out, both of them were injured to a near equal degree. 

So, either Mara can take punishment better than Jacen (Unlikely), or she was in nearly as bad shape as he was.

Both were exchanging force attacks with parity

Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand

- LotF Sacrifice

Ultimately at this point, while Mara and Jacen have mused on his power being superior, the facts of the duel seem to disprove that. Once again as you yourself said in your post

 So, either Mara can take punishment better than Jacen (Unlikely), or she was in nearly as bad shape as he was.

So if both are equally injured and they are still exchanging attacks and matching each other power for power, with Mara coming out ahead if anything given the fact she almost disarmed him, it’s safe to say that despite Mara’s worries and Jacen’s ego, the two were near equal in the end.
 
Now to preemptively address the inevitable counter about Jacen supposedly being hampered by close quarters. Here is the context of this in full
 

They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle.
 
-LotF Sacrifce

The only time the space is said to be a hindrance is when Mara and Jacen are rolling on the floor. In terms of the environment itself
 

Mara found the perfect trap at the end of one of the culverts. She could hear Jacen's running footsteps and she had a good fifty meters on him.
From here, the vaulted ceiling became lower, and even Mara had to run at a crouch. It wasn't the place to swing a standard lightsaber.

-LotF Sacrifice

Mara pins Jacen underneath some rubble at the end of the tunnel and attacks him from the wide open other side. How wide open? Well open enough that Mara can leap and weave through thrown objects and even on them
 

He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry
 
-LotF Sacrifice

In the main tunnel itself there is a meter of headspace for Caedus 

While he could sense the layout, Mara had vanished from the Force again. There was about a meter of headroom as he edged carefully along the central tunnel


-LotF Sacrifice 

 
To get space all Caedus had to do was blast Mara back and move forward into the higher and wider part of the tunnel. But he very clearly can’t do that.
 
Again if both are equally injured and they are still exchanging attacks and matching each other power for power, with Mara coming out ahead if anything given the fact she almost disarmed him it’s safe to say that despite Mara’s worries and Jacen’s ego, the two were near equal in the end.
 

New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force wrote:He sighed and sat down. He was a decent lightsaber master and sai acrobat, but nowhere near as skilled as Luke, Kyp, Mara, Corran-or Anakin. His heart just wasn't in it.

Jacen's not a lightsaber master, at least not yet. He's limited in a lot of ways, and as is made abundantly clear, Jacen's power is all that increases massively from here onwards. Not his saber skill, at least not by much:

NJO TUF takes place in 29 ABY.

LotF in it’s entirety takes place in 40 ABY. I would put forward that Jacen became a lightsaber master in the 11 years intervening these two (which included the Dark Nest Crisis and his 5 years journey away from the Order) rather than within the few months of LotF. But let’s dig deeper

Your flimsy attempt at scaling is noted but nigh worthless. As pointed to up above Jacen is at best slightly superior to Mara as of LotF Sacrifice. Now let’s see how far the beloved boost takes him.

This same Corran was neglected in favour of Kyle when it came to taking down Jacen head to head

Except if we follow this logic we’re going to be sent in a few circles given that Saba Sebytyne was also at this council meeting and was passed over. It was down to who volunteered. And even then it wasn’t based on power. The mission was never even about about taking down Jacen

[size=13]"A tracer." Luke outlined a square about five centimeters across on the table surface. "About so big. Black cloth. As long as it remains on Jacen, we can accurately plot where he is, get a better sense of his movements."

Ben considered that. "So ... you were sure that the mission you sent Valin on would fail."

Kyp nodded. "The ambush portion of it, yes. Once I realized that we couldn't mount a successful grab-or-terminate mission against Jacen without being able to control the place and the time, I decided that it should be as realistic as possible. ... but also that it would serve chiefly to set up future operations. Ones that have a chance of succeeding."

"Did the team members know?"

Luke shook his head. "Only Master Katarn. We couldn't risk any of the others being captured and tortured into confessing. I was certain Kyle would be able to escape-or die before being broken."

-LotF Fury[/size]

It was based on their ability to escape and resist torture. The council meeting/sparring match was a sham. Kyp and Luke had already chosen the strike team and it’s purpose.

Nevermind later.

[size=13]Luke began looking from face to face as he spoke. "Wedge, handpick a starfighter squadron. We'll use it to chase the shuttle to safety aboard the Anakin Solo, then to support any operation against Centerpoint Station. I'll lead a unit of Jedi to assault Jacen; our job will be to take him out if possible, and to distract him from the rescue operation in any case. Han, Leia, I want you to lead the expedition to rescue the Chume'da. Master Katarn, I want you in reserve for extraction of the assault and rescue teams. Doctor Seyah and our scientific staff will come up with the best ways to destroy Centerpoint Station. Ben, owing to your experience there, I want you on that mission."

-LotF Fury[/size]

Later, when Luke actually chooses a team to take down Jacen, he picks Saba. While Corran is sorted to the side based on his piloting history and skills

[size=13]Other members of the squadron counted off, their roll call suggesting a Starfighter Command hall of fame. Five, Corran Horn, leading the second flight.

-LotF Fury[/size]

Meanwhile Kyle (who is fully recovered at this point thanks to Cilghal) is relegated to guarding the door. 


So clearly the prerequisites here are anything but power. At least not in such a linear fashion.

But back to Katarn

Jacen negates all of his attacks with casual elegance, while ragdolling his allies.

Which was due to a number of compounding factor that he does not have here. Such as being amped by the pain he was still experiencing  from his Luke fight

[size=13]So when Niathal said he did not look well, she was correct. He keenly felt his worst injury. Not the vibroblade wound, not the scalp tear, not the kidney damage-all three were healing. All three were the kind of pain that strengthened him.

-LotF Fury[/size]

Despite this amp he is only able to duel Kyle and the others for around 15 seconds before his stamina begins to drain heavily. To the point where Mithric, who was near irrelevant to him before, well

[size=13]Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.


-LotF Fury[/size]

Despite his ability to soak damage Jacen does have a limit where the damage he sustains outweighs the power provided by his wounds

Katarn is perfectly able to push Jacen to this limit. With the duel taxing both of them



-Star Wars Encyclopedia: Kyle Katarn.

What we actually have here is Jacen facing someone in and around Mara’s level while being amped again, being taxed and depleted in 15-30 seconds to the point where fodder can beat down his guard via augmentation.

And this is Jacen post his almighty sacrifice boost? Can’t see much of a difference

And to put the nail in the coffin

[size=13]They had to. Jacen could defeat his mother or Ben without trouble; Saba, with difficulty.

-LotF Fury[/size]

Clearly during Fury Jacen can still be threatened by the NJO Council. With Katarn nearly wearing an amped Jacen down and him confessing to difficulty with Saba despite his ego. 

I’m failing to see where this massive boost is. So Jacen went from being equal to a member of the council to being able to maybe beat them with high difficulty? That’s not much of a leap really.

 And he's far and away from the Sing fight.

Can you actually make a case for any of the council members being that much better than Sing honestly? Both her and Mara are evidently equal or even slightly above him in power and he only marginally outmatches them by Fury at best.

proved capable of casually ragdolling drop ships

He did nothing but roll over a burnt out wreck that was only capable of carrying one squad of troops.

And yanking back accelerating B-Wings:

Wasn’t accelerating. Wasn't even moving. Only was bringing it’s tail down (B-Wing operate on a gimble. The fighters move around the cockpit) In fact it didn’t even resist.

[size=13]The second B-wing gave up trying to hold Kyle and his companions at bay and dropped its tail to bring its torpedo launcher to bear. Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.

This B-wing did not even try to break free.

-DN III[/size]

And no this is not enough to even approach people Dooku can stomp. But we’ll get to that later. For now.

Peak Jacen against the Inferno iteration of the character though? He's more than up to the task. Take his fight with Luke amped Jaina for example:

Oh yes. Let’s discuss this trainwreck.

1.Jacen is totally convinced he's fighting the real Luke, meaning Jaina's performance has to be consistent with her uncle's

No, If Jacen could determine the identity through power alone he would have done so right here

He Force-leapt up through the hole into the smoky, flashing interior of the booth and pivoted around to block the fan of blue light that came slicing toward his neck even before he could sense who he was fighting.

Whoever it was, the enemy was good.

LotF: Invincible 

Keep in mind Luke is a significant cut above the rest of the order at this point. If Jacen was able to determine it to be Luke by the caliber of fighting alone there would be no doubt

Secondly, he could simply be sensing Luke power. Which was present to a degree. However that doesn't mean all of it was there. Or even an amount that Jacen had detected previously in his life. Ben still sensed "Anakin's power" in Vader despite him being significantly weaker. And Bane was able to outright leave echo's in locations that would fool other force users of similar caliber

Whatever the explanation, Bane knew one thing for certain: He didn't want to face Zannah right now. Not while he was still recovering from the toxins Serra had used to render him helpless, and certainly not without his lightsaber.

She was searching for him; he could feel her reaching out, drawing ever closer. Still, there were ways to counter her efforts: subtle manipulations of the Force could confuse and misdirect her.

..... 

She darted down a hall and around a corner. Up ahead she saw a door swinging freely on its hinges.

He's there. In that room or one just beyond it. She could sense his presence, his unmistakable power.
......

She had been tracking an echo of his power, and somehow she had missed the real thing.

That's impossible. Unless:

Bane knew she was here! He had tricked her, leaving his imprint on this room to lure her here while he made his escape.

- Dynasty of Evil

Thirdly, have you considered that Jacen thinking it’s Luke cold be a result of…… Luke fooling him? That’s what the illusion was designed to do.
Given Jacen’s constant underestimation of Luke’s abilities and inflation of his own, he is hardly a worthwhile judge in any capacity.


Jacen was unable to detect it being Jaina because he is simply massively beneath Luke in every possible facet. And therefore was helpless to see through his illusion. Simple as that. 

2.Jacen's arm is busted up before the duel begins, he's in much worse state than he was against Luke, where he was actually amped by drawing off the pain of a kidney injury.

You make it sound as if it was limp at his side. Which just isn’t true. In fact Caedus is amped here as well.

[size=13]Despite the pellet wound his shoulder had suffered earlier, Caedus did not hesitate to activate his own blade. His pain would only fuel his power
…
Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound


-LotF Invincible[/size]

And the shoulder wound was bearable. And the power it gave only helped.

3. They match in sabers.

That’s a generous assessment of the situation.

He Force-leapt up through the hole into the smoky, flashing interior of the booth and pivoted around to block the fan of blue light that came slicing toward his neck even before he could sense who he was fighting.

Whoever it was, the enemy was good.

Caedus felt a boot slam into his ribs-an instant before he saw it coming with his Aing-Tii fighting-sight-and the breath left his lungs. He countered with a head-high backslash and brought his own foot up, landing a Force-enhanced snap-kick between the legs of the brown-robed blur attacking him. The blow drew a pained grunt but failed to even stagger his foe.

A bony elbow slammed up under his chin, rocking him onto his heels. Then, finally, Caedus felt a familiar tingle in the back of his mind, and he saw the image of a violet blade slashing at his vulnerable side. He swept his own lightsaber down across the front of his body in a desperate reverse block that barely caught the attack in time to prevent it from slicing him in two, then whirled into a spinning back kick that landed squarely in his foe's stomach and drove him back:

A mere two steps.

- LotF Invincible 

They’re 2 for 2 each so far. But context is everything. Not once but twice Caedus can barely anticipate or sense who he’s fighting to block their strikes. If he can block them at all. He takes an elbow and kick that knock the breath from his lungs and staggers him.


On the other hand we have Caedus’ blows. Which although landed…… do nothing. His kick barely makes her grunt and the second full spin kick barely drives her back two steps. It’s clear Caedus is physically outclassed here to massive degree. Which bodes poorly for this being a raw power comparison. 

Jacen's ultimately able to stop her from breaking his guard

While amped, for a total of maybe 5 or 6 strikes that left his hands stinging and heart racing. Let’s also remember that they were in the air for this portion of the duel. During which Caedus had backwards momentum to offset the force of the blows. Had he been on the ground and not had that available? Well let’s look

Caedus turned to meet her with his good arm forward and his wounded shoulder behind. Jaina struck high with the lightsaber and low with the beskad. Caedus slipped back, allowing both blades to pass, then sprang forward and counterthrust, trying to impale her with her own momentum.
Jaina was already spinning past his crimson blade, pivoting on a dead stormtrooper's chest plate as she brought Vatok's beskad around at neck height. But Caedus had anticipated her once again, leaning away to take the blow on his wounded shoulder rather than across his throat.
Jaina did not even feel the beskad cleaving bone. She simply heard a voice-Jacen's voice-cry out in shock and pain; then an arm landed on her boots.

- LotF Invincible

Jacen is simply not able to keep up with Jaina. Even with his Aing-Tii fighting style on top of his force pre-cog and augmentation all he can do is take the blow on his shoulder. Not avoid it entirely or simply catch the attack with his other arm. And yes, he can raise his other arm

[size=13]Caedus waved the Moffs up toward the anteroom, then turned back to the projection booth to see the muzzle of a pellet accelerator pushing through a makeshift firing port, which the sniper had cut through the projectionist's blaster-scorched viewing pane. He managed to raise the arm on his injured side in the weapon's general direction, then reached out with the Force and made a twisting motion with his hand. The barrel trembled for an instant, then started to bend against the edge of the firing port


-LotF Invincible[/size]

Jacen has fought through stab wounds and broken limbs before. Even maintaining full mobility in them. The fact that he was unable to avoid Jaina's arm removing strike either comes down too Jaina, like Katarn, pushing Caedus to the point where his exhaustion outweighs the amp of his injuries. Which bodes extremely poorly for him. Or Caedus simply being unable to combatively keep up with Juke on even ground.

And no. The attack was not simply due to Jaina having a second weapon. As described in the text, Jaina performs a full spin and pivot before that strike. She could have easily brought either hand to bear had she only one weapon. Caedus simply isn't capable of keeping up for more than 1 or 2 blows.

4.Jaina's victory was due to the force, not saber superiority, and employing force based attacks is something Jacen has likewise shown he can do against her, as evidenced by him subduing her with FL in the second half of their duel, which would have been his victory if not for Jaina's second weapon.

Setting aside that lightning and TK are not relative when it comes to the damage they inflict and the means needed to defend against them.

Jacen needed to drop his weapon and take a hit in order to launch a point blank FL attack on Jaina. This is also done directly after losing a damn arm and while being stabbed, which would have ludicrously amped Caedus. It is not a judge of his base power. Nevermind that I’m confused as to how you think transfers to this fight as the Count does not leave himself open in this way. Nor fight this close.


Moreover I'm curious of your claim that this would have resulted in his victory. No doubt a great deal of the power of this attack likely stemmed from it being launched in the midst of a stab wound, meaning that without it it's doubtful Juke would have been put down as hard. 

The overall problems with your logic here is that


1. Caedus has other factors apart from Force power aiding him in a duel such as his Aing Ting pre cog. Making any fight he is in already a poor judge of his power.

2. Despite being more skilled than Jaina at this point (which isn’t saying much) Caedus’ strike can’t actually damage her. While hers repeatedly stagger him.

3. The dueling portion of Jaina vs Jacen lasts maybe a dozen blows and three exchanges. Two of which occur mid-air. Where the pressure of meeting strikes is lessened by not being wedged against the ground or forced to keep footing.

4. Jaina near oneshots him with TK. Putting him to the ground barely able to move despite his pain tolerance and amp from his shoulder and finishes him in two strikes afterwards. With Caedus only being saved by an environmental circumstance


So I should be clear. When I say

Amped Jaina is around Dooku level. 

What I’m really saying is

1. Jacen couldn’t stagger Dooku with strikes even if he lands them
2. Even with his fighting sense + Force pre-cog he could barely see the Counts attacks coming
3. Jacen could barely last a dozen or so blows against the Count, should the environment favour him initiating an aerial retreat However, unlike Jaina

Luke flew after him, not even bothering to try for the high position, simply coming up under him with a wild slash combination that was anything but subtle or deft or even tricky

- LotF Invincible

He is a fencer, Qui-Gon agreed. Leverage, position, advantage—they are as natural to him as breathing.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

Dooku going to be going for the high ground while being incredibly tricky

4. Dooku could near oneshot Jacen with the force. Via TK or lightning.

Just to clear that up.


Now, we move on to the Count of Serenno himself 

 
The original case constructed for the Count in this SS was admirable. But IMO sorely lacking in it’s portrayal of just how far Jacen is outclassed here. Consider this an expansion of it.
Let’s start with Anakin Skywalker circa 29 BBY (two years post the battle of Naboo.) Being loosely compared to a planetary power in Zonama Sekot

The being projecting the image of Anakin Skywalker had all the resources of a planet behind it, yet still it radiated uncertainty. It was easy to believe that it was the child Luke's father had once been, enormously powerful, tempted by the dark side but still too young to know what was right or wrong.
Source: The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic III: Reunion

Fast forward to 23 BBY and we have one of Dooku’s most vaunted TK feats. The easy throwing of cruisers on Korriban

They moved farther into the darkness.

"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."

"This time I'll be prepared."

"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."

They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...

Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.

"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

These cruisers being hundreds of meters in length
 

 
This alone beats out any individual feat you can bring to bear from Caedus. But we’re just getting started. Now let’s get the location out of the way first. This feat takes place on Korriban.
 
Which is the darkest place in the galaxy as of the destruction of Byss.
 


Placing it above places like Yavin IV and more notably Dromund Kaas which not only troubled FotJ Luke but outright seduced Kyle Katarn to the Dark Side.


 

For a moment, no one spoke. Finally Luke said, "The similarities between the history of Dromund Kaas and the Lost Tribe's own might make it appealing to them. They might see those commonalities as destiny. Fortunately for us, there are a very few places on this planet with solid ground, so it will narrow our search. Unfortunately, that works both ways-if the Tribe is hiding out here, we'll be fairly easy to spot. We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara."
 
-FotJ Ascension

 Which no doubt would have amped Dooku significantly.

 
Like other Sith planets such as Zigoola, Korriban assaults Jedi who approach it.
 

He felt it now, the dark side of the Force emanating from the planet's surface. Looking at the faces of the Jedi, he knew they felt it as well. It had a sick sweetness to it, something that seemed to pour through his veins, attracting and repelling him at once. It was the most complicated surge of the dark side he had ever felt.
He struggled to meet it, struggled to clear his mind.

- The Final Showdown

In fact Obi-Wan notes it as the most complex surge of the dark side he had ever felt. 

He felt it now, the dark side of the Force emanating from the planet's surface. Looking at the faces of the Jedi, he knew they felt it as well. It had a sick sweetness to it, something that seemed to pour through his veins, attracting and repelling him at once. It was the most complicated surge of the dark side he had ever felt.

- The Final Showdown

Past that of Maul on Naboo. One of the most powerful Sith apprentices in history.

It should known be as well that Obi-Wan encountered Dooku directly on Korriban during which he ragodlls this more advanced Skywalker as well as encounters the spirits guarding the Valley of the Sith
 

Anakin was moving quickly, hugging the wall of the hangar. His focus was so intent that he did not sense Obi-Wan behind him. Obi-Wan noted this with alarm. How many times had he warned Anakin to never focus on the goal ahead only, but to cast his attention like a net, as far around him as he could? He should have sensed his Master. Obi-Wan quickened his pace. He felt the dark side of the Force grow and gather, and he wanted to call out to Anakin, but didn't want to give away their positions.
He needn't have worried. Whoever the Sith was, he knew exactly where Anakin was, for, to Obi-Wan's horror, his apprentice was suddenly lifted like a doll and flung into the air. Anakin's body slammed into the wreck of a cruiser. He fell to the ground.
Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
 
He heard something - whispering voices, just as he'd heard upon his arrival. He could see that the others heard them, too. Low, guttural, insistent. Yet what were they saying? It was impossible to tell. Something evil. Something he did not wish to hear.
 
"They are waking," Ry-Gaul said.
 
"They know we're here," Siri agreed.
 
The dead Sith Lords, slumbering inside the huge stone mausoleums, had felt the Jedi presence. The dark energy poured out of the tombs. Anakin could taste it all, anger and cruelty and pain.
 
- The Final Showdown

And yet Kenobi still regards Dooku as of Geonosis as the most overpowered he had ever felt.
 

Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.


Legacy of the Jedi

Firmly placing Geonosis!Dooku above the iteration Obi-Wan encountered on Korriban. And for that matter, Korriban itself. As stated in numerous sources, Dooku defeated Skywalker and Kenobi easily during this encounter
 

Anakin's impulsive attack gives Count Dooku the chance to overpower him and Obi-Wan easily.

- Mysteries of the Jedi


The two Jedi challenged Dooku to a lightsaber duel, but Dooku's masterful skills in old-style lightsaber combat made short work of the younger combatants.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Though Obi-Wan instructed Anakin to join him in a coordinated attack against Dooku, the headstrong Padawan rushed in — only to be incapacitated by Dooku's surprising dark side attack. Kenobi moved in for the attack, but Dooku proved far too powerful. The rogue Jedi's lightsaber skills outpaced Kenobi's parries, and Obi-Wan fell to the ground, wounded in the arm and leg from glancing saber strikes.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Anakin and Obi-Wan pursue Dooku to a secret hangar, where he defeats them easily, cutting off Anakin's hand.

- The Making of Revenge of the Sith

This is despite Anakin calling upon a ‘flash of brilliance’ to match Dooku for a time. Notably as of this time, Anakin had power comparable to Yoda to call upon in such flashes, but could not sustain the effort for long. Without it Dooku finally toying with the boy in the conclusion of the duel.


 

On the floor of the cavern on brutal Geonosis, rendered helpless by two lightsaber cuts, he watched Dooku toy with bold, rash Anakin. Silver hair gleaming, teeth bared in a smile, the ageless Sith, the treacherous Jedi, prowled around Anakin with insolent ease. Deflected each blinding attack with casual, consummate skill. Forced the error-and took Anakin's arm.
 
- Wild Space

As the war went on Skywalker and Kenobi would continue to grow and leap frog one another.
 
During the Rise of the Cortosis Battle Droids (10 months post Battle of Geonosis original timeline) Anakin would face a doppleganger of Dooku. Notably this doppleganger defeated Kenobi in The New Droid Army
 

"Where is Master Kenobi?"

"Wounded in the fight against Dooku. The Force will mend his wounds in time."

- The New Droid Army

The Doppelganger technique goes so far as to half the users power.
 

 
Notably, Dooku's double however loses to Skywalker when he is pushed into a berserker state  
 

 
4 months later however, Obi-Wan has leapfrogged Anakin once again. Despite Anakin once again being pushed into a beserker rage by the same subject matter
 

“My SLIME-DOG mother is DEAD!” Halagad snarled. “My MAGGOT-FORNICATING father is DEAD! They were … THEY WERE EATEN ALIVE! By that … psychotic, putrefying, dung-swollen spawn of evil I sent to Molator!” Devastation welled in his eyes. “Do you understand?! You arrogant, stone-hearted slave bastar—”
He never finished. For Anakin, sensitive Anakin—born to slavery, son of prophecy, a man wholly unable to let die nor die to his boyish truths—had saved all his self-poisoning fear, all his self-immolating anger, all his self-devouring suffering—his deepest, most desperate and suffocating secret—for last.

“SHE DIED IN MY ARMS! YOU SNIVELING, JEDI REJECT! BUT AT LEAST YOU HAD A FATHER!”

Words-only words. But they exploded from Anakin with the unbridled seismic energy of a thousand volcanic powers. The psychic payload blasted Halagad airborne and nearly impaled him on his own lightsaber as it flew from his mutilated grip. 

Like a thunderbolt, Anakin lunged to his feet over his defenseless Jedi brother, Obi-Wan's lightsaber in hand. He ratcheted the blazing laser sword back and overhead like the apparition of death- 

"ANAKIN! ANAKIN, NO!" -and screaming down. 

A pitiless crack slammed into Anakin's entire body, like a fleet of starship-sized colossus wasps suiciding into a moon, skidding him across the scathing gravel. Obi-Wan lowered the palm of his unsteady right hand as Anakin looked up, eyes wild with recrimination.

- Skyewalkers

Easily smacking Anakin with what felt like starships to knock him down.

After Anakin’s knighting Obi-Wan is caught in an explosion during an attack on Coruscant and severely injured

And then the explosions.

The light came first, a bright blossoming of scarlet and orange edged in black. Directly below him. Off to his left, then his right. Straight ahead. Hard on their heels came the shock waves, as though an invisible hand had seized the air and shaken it like a blanket. The waves blasted over him in scorching roils of heat, flinging his citibike end over end. Last of all the dreadful sound, a deep and rolling boom boom boom boom, the echoes multiplying and magnifying as they bounced from building to swaying, shuddering, disintegrating building.

And suddenly the bright Coruscant sky was full of metal debris and bodies, of airspeeders and maxitaxis and gracious air gondolas, tossed like leaves in an unforgiving storm.

Helplessly tumbling, Obi-Wan summoned the Force and wrenched his citibike aside just in time to avoid a burning two-seater...and was struck from behind by an out-of-control speeder bus laden with screaming passengers.

Pain. Surprise. A detached and baffled anger. This can't be right. No, no, this is wrong.

Yet still he was falling...and falling...and-

During which he was severely burned and suffered a multitude of other injuries.

"Concussion," he mumbled. "Broken hand. Broken leg. Broken shoulder. Cracked pelvis. Four broken ribs and a punctured lung. One or two internal organs jostled a bit."

- Wild Space

Despite not fully recovering from these injuries, Obi-Wan would procede to go on a mission with Bail Organa to Zigoola. A personal trap designed to consume Jedi. The power of this nexus blew Korriban out of the water.

Obi-Wan plucked a stem of grass and considered it, his face grave. Stroked a fingertip down its blue-green length. Then he shivered. "Do you know, Master Yoda," he said, his voice very low, "there is more of the light side in this sliver of grass than I could feel in my whole body while I was on Zigoola. It was..." He exhaled, so slowly. "...the most empty, the most lonely, the most bereft I have ever felt. Worse even than all the deaths I relived, so many times, as though each time was the first." He let the blade of grass slip from his fingers, his gaze roaming across the arboretum

- Wild Space

Interfering with Obi-Wan connection from light years away and eluding his senses. Despite Kenobi being able to scan the outer rim and their hyperlanes with no issue

 

For his own part, he turned captivity to his advantage, surrendering himself to the kind of deep meditations usually practiced by Jedi on retreat or committed to the contemplative life. To his relief, he could sense no lowering danger. No threat from Grievous to these distant hyperlanes. Which wasn't surprising. There was little out here for the Republic to want. And if the Republic didn't want it, neither did Dooku and his Separatists.

What he did perceive, in glimpses, were some of the Jedi's Outer Rim campaigns. Adi Gallia triumphant on Agomar. Ki-Adi-Mundi defeated almost to death on Barab I. Eeth Koth defending the besieged people of Korriban, surrounded by drifts of dead and dying clone troopers. Saesee Tiin in desperate straits closer to the Core, on Bimmisaari-but no. No, that was not now, that was then. A trade dispute of the past, long since peacefully settled.

He caught a single impression of Anakin, more feeling than vision. Sorrow. Frustration. A crushing fear of failure. He couldn't find that wretched droid.

Well, try harder, Anakin. Did you think I was joking?

…

No matter how hard he tried, how deeply he meditated, he could sense nothing about Zigoola. And he should be able to. It was one of his particular talents, the ability to sense the shape of things to come.

This close to Zigoola he should be able to feel something. But all he'd achieved with his meditation was that one annihilating dream.

- Wild Space

And draining Kenobi to near a corpse from orbit.

Kenobi was on his knees, his face gray, the whites of his eyes turned a gaudy blood red. Sweat poured off him, soaking his battle-scorched Jedi tunic, and he clung to the comsat seat as though it were his last hope of survival.

…….

Then Kenobi's face twisted, and he began to shake, bone-deep tremors that chattered his teeth and shivered his hair.

Bail heard the man's harsh breath, rasping. Come on, Kenobi, come on. You've beaten the Sith before. You can beat them again.

He stared out of the viewport, starving for air. He could count the trees now, they were so close to the ground. Count the trees, count the rocks, imagine the pain as they punched Zigoola's grim surface. They flashed over something-an elaborate black structure-the Sith temple? Too late, they were gone, he'd most likely imagined it. Closer to the ground now-nearly there-nearly there-

Kenobi howled, a shocking sound of rage and pain. His hand on the helm controls wrenched their small ship's nose up, dropped its tail, dropped speed, tried to undo what he had done. And then, still howling, he let go of the helm completely. Unfisted his other hand, finger by finger, and turned away from the sight of oncoming death. Blood was pouring from his eyes, his nose, his mouth. He looked like a bleeding ghost, blood jeweled in his beard.

Wild Space

Essentially the planet used of combination of a Death Field and Drain Life to attempt to turn Kenobi into a skeleton

However despite his preexisting injuries and such Kenobi used a massive burst of Force Light to temporally neutralize the nexus and save the crashing cruiser

Released from that pitiless fist, gasping, Bail flinched as the Jedi's arms closed hard about him, smothered him like a desperate parent trying to protect his child. He felt a rush of heat. Felt the cockpit warp. Marveled at the way the air seemed to turn gold. Fear ceased. Anguish ceased. He felt safe and calm. Serene.

Breha.

And then the ship's belly struck the first of the trees with a shriek like a cat's claws along the metal hull. It ripped through their foliage, splintering their branches, shredding their leaves. The ship slewed wildly, like a maddened harpooned whale. As the strident crash alarms blared, the emergency impact bags deployed-but imperfectly. One ballooned out, one didn't, and the ship began to roll. Bail felt the cockpit tip, slowly, felt himself and Kenobi obediently follow. Time slowed down, stretching like warm caramel taffy. With a sound as loud as the universe's creation the ship struck the hard ground. Metal groaned and buckled. Transparisteel shattered. Flesh tore.

The golden light vanished...and reality disappeared.

…..

"I understand that," Organa said calmly. "And I agree, it's a risk. But you've already proven you can beat them. I believe you can beat them again."

Obi-Wan stared, puzzled. "What are you talking about?"

"You don't remember? On the ship, before we crashed."

"No. It's all a blur."

"Whatever hold the Sith had on you? You broke it. Just before we hit the ground. It nearly killed you, but you broke it. You pulled us out of our nose dive and you-did something with the Force. I don't know what, but it's the reason we're not in the same shape as the ship." Organa shook his head, rueful. "Why do you think I can't stay mad at you?"
 
- Wild Space

 Speaking of instances of light in the force, this is of note

Sinking into the Force, he gathered its measureless power to him. Felt the light fill him, sparkling in his blood. Once he was supremely centered, aware of himself and his place in the universe, aware of Organa's place, the duet they sang within the Force's living glory, he extended his senses and control. Wrapped them around the struggling starship, the gliding brick, and cradled it in a cocoon of pure light-side energy. Immediately the ship's sluggish inertia smoothed. Became malleable. Frictionless now, and rendered opaque to any prying eyes that might be watching, it floated toward their target, the space station.

- Wild Space

Kenobi TK controls a cruiser and cloaks it in an illusion with next to no effort. Compared to:

Luke was sure. By then, he had opened himself wide to the Force, and it was pouring in from all sides, filling him with a maelstrom of power, imbuing his whole body with its energy.

.......

He formed an imaginary picture of the Shadow's exterior, then expanded it into the Force, moving it from his mind out into the cockpit. Mara turned around and inspected the image carefully, then said, "Looks good." Luke continued to enlarge the image, extending it into every corner of the vessel, taking his time to absorb the attributes that made up the Shadow's sensor signature. He began to grow tired, but ignored his fatigue and expanded the illusion until it covered the entire ship like an imaginary skin.

.....

Trying not to be distracted by his son-or by the steadily growing shudder of the barrage of dartship attacks-Luke brought to mind another image of the Shadow, this time with a black, star-speckled veneer that resembled the emptiness of deep space. Instead of absorbing the ship's sensor signature, however, he blanketed it with a layer of cold emptiness. Once the illusory skins were in place, he carefully adjusted them, drawing the masking image tight against the hull here, pushing the counterfeit out a little there.

The effort of maintaining both illusions began to deplete the energy running through him, so Luke opened himself up completely, using his fear for Ben's life, his anger at the insects that were threatening it, to draw more Force into himself. Every centimeter of his body began to nettle with its sting, and a faint aura arose from his skin. A third bang sounded from the engineering bay. "How about that decoy, Skywalker?" Mara asked. "Our shields can't take-" Luke released the outer skin. "Go!" Mara shoved the throttles to overload, then, half a second later, shut down the drives. The Shadow slid out of her double and-still masked by the dark veneer Luke had constructed - glided quietly away from the Force illusion. The shuddering stopped. Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart. The air around him began to crackle with static. R2-D2 extended a fire extinguisher and started toward Luke, squealing in alarm. "It's okay, Artoo!" Mara said. "He knows how far to push it. He's not going to ignite." I hope, she added silently. On Luke's tactical display, the illusionary Shadow-the real one was not visible even to her own sensors-was slowly drifting toward the bottom of the screen, still surrounded by a cloud of attacking dartships. A small inset was counting down the seconds remaining until the Force-cloaked Shadow would be far enough from the dartships to restart the drives and flee. The way Luke was hurting, thirty seconds seemed like an eternity. "We're bringing Juun and Saba aboard now," Leia commed. Her voice was filled with the concern that Luke felt in the Force. "Do you need help?" They could not answer for fear that the dartships would notice the comm waves and discover the Shadow's true position. Instead, Mara reached out to Leia through the Force, trying to assure her that everything was fine. Though the message would have been clearer coming from Luke, his body was starting to tremble and spark, and he needed all his concentration just to fight his exhaustion. The XR808g began to drift away from the Falcon on the tactical display, and the Solos started a sweeping turn back toward the "battle." Luke felt Mara protesting through the Force, but the Falcon only began to pick up speed. Leia was angry with them for trying to be heroes; the situation wasn't that bad. "Stang!" Mara cursed. "That-" "Moommmm!" Ben called, peeking around the corner. He was in his vac suit, with the helmet visor open. "Dad says we're not supposed to say stang." "Your father's right," Mara said. "Aren'tyou supposed to be at your evacuation station with Nanna?" "We were, but then the shuddering stopped and..."

.....

Ben's gaze drifted over to Luke's glowing, anguished form, and his eyes bulged with horror. "What's wrong with Dad?"  Luke's skin felt as dry as a Tatooine lake, and tiny haloes of golden light were starting to appear around his fingertips. The Falcon was on a straight heading and accelerating toward the dartships. The inset on the tactical display showed three seconds, two... Mara brought the sublight drives back online. Luke let the illusions drop and slumped into his chair, his skin prickling and his hair standing on end as the last of the Force energy left his body.

.....

She activated a mirror section and looked back at him. "How're you feeling?" "Like I grabbed a powerfeed," he said. "Why is that so much harder than pushing a Star Destroyer around?" Mara smiled. "Just don't make a mess on my flight deck." Feeling in danger of doing just that, Luke started to rise - then caught a glimpse of himself in the mirrored section of canopy. His face was puffy and wrinkled, his skin sallow and dry, his eyes sunken and baggy and rimmed in red. He was starting to look like Palpatine. Not by half, Mara assured him through the Force. "But get some rest," she said aloud. "If you push that stuff too hard, there's no telling what might happen."

......

Despite a twenty-minute rest trance, Luke still looked like an escapee from a spice mine, with sallow skin and red-rimmed eyes.


- Dark Nest II

Dark Nest Luke can barely sustain two of these illusions and is strained simply creating one for reference. In fact Luke nearly Sheev's himself even trying. 

Anyhow, After Obi-Wan performs this feat and endures the ordeal on Zigoola he continues to fight and grow in the clones wars. Despite this. Kenobi still pales to Dooku.

Even Kenobi and Fisto together cannot deflect what the Count does alone. Despite Kenobi’s massive gains since Geonosis putting him above the iteration of Anakin that stomped Dooku’s doppleganger. Which represented half of Dooku's power that already dwarfed his amped Korriban self.

Even after this point, Dooku continued to grow throughout the rest of the war. Likewise scaling massively above Ventress,, Vos, Aayla and Aurra.

Leaving us with the final chain

RotS Dooku > TCW Dooku >> TCWS2 Kenobi+Fisto > Wild Space!Kenobi >/= DN Luke > Skyewalkers! Kenobi > Enraged Skyewalkers! Anakin > TNDA Enraged Anakin >/= Geonosis Dooku > Korriban Dooku (throwing 215m cruisers) > Korriban > Dromund Kaas = Turning Kyle Katarn and hampering FotJ Luke

When looking the absurd planetary level power this affords Dooku I’m left wondering how you expect me or anyone else to believe Caedus has a chance here

You’ve presented no substantive stand alone feats for Caedus or those he supposedly scales above and have instead chosen to anchor the boys only hopes on Luke Skywalker. Whose abilities fluctuate from struggling with Lumiya,

She drew back her arm and brought the lightwhip crackling through the air, missing Luke by centimeters. He lunged at her again and again, driven back each time. She'd slow sooner or later.

But so would he.

Then, as she began to raise her arm again, he ran at her, so close in that she couldn't get the whip traveling at its maximum lethal speed. He forced her back, step by step, as she tried to maintain the distance she needed.

One-two-three-four; she blocked him, handle held this way, then that, using the whip like a short lightsaber to deflect him, but Luke didn't pause or shift direction to wrong-foot her. He drove her like a battering ram toward the edge of the mesa, pushing her within meters, then a step, of the edge.

Lumiya held the whip handle in both hands like a staff and blocked his downward sweep. For a moment they were locked in a stalemate, pushing against each other and grunting with the effort, with only the sounds of exertion because they had nothing left to say to each other.

-Sacrifice

To ragdolling Caedus with no effort

Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest. Pain flared, stopping his breathing.

-Revelation

To nearly being killed by 3 YVH droids who are barely even with the average Jedi.

The Yuuzhan Vong Hunter droids, designed at the height of the Yuuzhan Vong War, were formidable. In a one-on-one match between a Jedi Knight and a YVH droid, the odds were about even. If the Jedi was inexperienced, if the battle dragged on long enough for her to tire, she was likely to be the loser ... a dead loser.
…..

Luke, more mobile, was avoiding the fire aimed at him-like a dancer, he kept ahead of every stream, but was making no headway, and in fact was being herded back toward the blast doors. A few moments more and the droids might pin him against the doors, denying him maneuverability, and finish him. 

- Fury

And even as I am writing this conclusion, you yourself concede that:

ScionOfSkywalker77
I don't believe that Caedus scales to TUF, DN or even DE Luke, but rather the Luke Caedus duelled during the events of Inferno. 

Except the Luke Caedus fought in Inferno has done nothing but beat the crap out of Caedus. The case you have presented is inherently circular.

Caedus is impressive for fighting this Luke and this Luke is impressive due to fighting Caedus?

Then you jump to Jaina, which as outlined above in no way helps your situation.

Yes, Luke amped Jaina giving her access to power far beyond her normal means. Enough to, despite the skill gap, wreck Caedus conventionally to the point of being immune to his blows and near oneshotting with TK. With Jacen only landing a hit worth a damn by losing an arm and being stabbed in the leg amping him to high heaven. But you still have no way to anchor this feat, nor is it applicable to this match up. Due to the Counts style being vastly more refined and fencing based.

How much power was Luke able to transmit to Jaina? Don’t know. Was she capable of using this power effectively and to it’s maximum potential or was she stuck using a fraction like AotC Anakin having Yoda level powers? Don’t know.

Congratulations. By your own word. You’ve successfully set Jacen adrift in his own circular scaling bubble outside of which no reference can be drawn to anything.

Meanwhile the Count scales many times above some of the most powerful planetary spanning powers in galactic history, powers that have threatened even FotJ Luke. Likewise many times above characters hailed at or experiencing powers among the greatest in history.   

Caedus meanwhile, has consistently been caught being overpowered in the force by Aurra Sing, even in power with Mara Jade, taxed by Kyle Katarn and having difficulty with Saba consistently across the entirety of LotF. Nullifying any claims of significant growth in between.

Caedus, plainly, has no business fighting someone of Count Dooku’s caliber. He will be quickly outfought and overpowered.

Based? 

@HeartOfTheForce Amazing post, will respond when I have time.

Jake nutted. I disagree but like the creativity at least you didn't argue PARITY WITH YODA!!!!!!!

1) Rebuttals To Rebuttals

A) Aurra Sing

Aurra is not a Skywalker, a Maul, Ventress, Dooku or Kenobi. She has no access to holocrons, texts or teachers or anything else. Likewise there are next to no Jedi for her to sharpen her skills against and she spends her time being second to Boba Fett in Bounty Hunter Ranks in the Galaxy.

The idea that Aurra has increased to any meaningful degree is reaching to say the least.

This opening point is a strawman. I never claimed that Sing increased to any meaningful degree, I merely made note of a general trend throughout the SW mythos, that passing years often grants a boon of power to a force wielder. Such a point was posited in response to MP's claim about Sing's apparent decline, the evidence for which was poor to say the least. Given the lack of compelling reasoning provided by my former opponent I think that subscribing to the common occurence is hardly unreasonable, however that doesn't suggest that I think Sing was capable of obtaining any massive boost, in fact I'd agree with your notion that such an assertion is unfounded. Her gaining a marginal boost or remaining on par with her past incarnation doesn't seem contradicted however. To be frank though, Sing's increase isn't the focal point of my argument, it's Jacen's combative ineptude by contrast to his power circa Tempest (Where he's still way ahead of Sing), and his growth following that that's emphasised throughout.

Later in this post you put forward that Jacen is in someway comparable to earlier iterations of Luke. Whom with even moderate outputs of TK could liquefy Sing.

Which is irrelevant given I only suggested such parity was held by Caedus as of book 9 in the series. The Sing fight occurs in book 3. Ergo, it takes place after massive power growth (Which will be substantiated further down the line).

Likewise Caedus, for some reason, deemed utter TP domination the best way to go and not a simple TK grip. Despite TK only requiring the overcoming of Sing’s passive barrier (as she was caught off guard) and TP requiring, well: Oh, the full overpowering of Sing’s force potential.

Couple of things to make note of here:

A) We can attribute that to TP being a more efficient method of disabling Sing while ensuring his child's safety. That doesn't mean it's easier, nor does it contradict the idea that Jacen is capable of TK domination should he so wish.

B) If it requires the overpowering of Sing's force potential how are you using it to guage the two's respective power levels (Which you later note are equal)? Power and potential are noticeably distinct, and you make no reference to any other event in the fight as a means to prove parity (In fact you ignored my points about the rest of the brawl entirely). The quote doesn't say what you think it says but that aside I fail to see how your interpretation of it benefits you.

And the sad part is. He can barely do that

Ok, so? You’ve yet to cap Sing’s potential beneath Dooku’s actualised power, which is required to establish that Jacen’s performance here indicates inferiority to Dooku.

Except this is thoroughly explained by the quote above. Jacen's potential, though nowhere near realised at any point in his life, is Luke level or in and around.

So, you've refuted my comparison which is intended to prove that TP requires a huge power disparity by citing a quote which shows it not only requires a large power disparity, but isn't even a power to power comparison, and is instead a power to potential one? Care to explain how that remotely benefits your argument? Ignoring all that let's look at the quote:

Tales Of The Jedi SourceBook wrote:The deep subconscious of a Force-sensitive person is shielded by a protective barrier which prevents another Force wielder from penetrating his or her inner mind. This shield pushes violently back at an intruder, sending him or her stumbling back. This "shield" is an involuntary defense mechanism maintained by every Force sensitive person. It is one reliable way to determine which people might have the potential to become Jedi. The magnitude of the backlash generated by the shield depends on the character's strength in the Force. A person who is merely Force-sensitive will shove the intruder back by a meter. Someone with actual Force skills will produce a more intense reaction. Those with little training will send the intruder reeling back across the room. Someone who is well-trained, or who has a great deal of raw talent in the Force, might actually hurl an intruder across the room.

The extract is merely stating that the involuntary defence can determine whether they have the potential to become Jedi, not that it in of itself represents force potential (There's a distinction there). In fact it later makes note of what really contributes to the strength of the defence ("Raw talent", "Training" etc etc). This fits given Unu attributes Jacen's ability to resist to his five years studying the arcane aspects of the force, he never once makes note of Jacen's potential as the reason.

The Sing comparison stands. Even if Caedus posses marginally superior skill. In terms of power they’re dead even.

Hardly. If we accept my (More reasonable) interpretation Caedus is vastly more powerful as demonstrated in the fight but is incapable of maintaining TP domination due to the disparity required. If we take yours, Caedus can't overpower Sing's full potential, which has no ties to her power nor Dooku's.

B) Mara Jade

What Mara intended in this case is irrelevant. She did cause damage. A lot of it

Cheap attempt at trying to score a victory. You ultimately agree the two are equally injured, and that’s all that matters.

Both were exchanging force attacks with parity

What you've posted shows that they can't penetrate each others barriers directly, something even Sheev can't do to Maul (Despite the rather obvious power disparity). This doesn't indicate they're comparable power wise, and Mara's commentary would seem to disprove that (Which is likely accurate given how familiar she is with him).

The points about the tunnels only serve to further my argument, that Mara's CQC victory was legitimate, but she was vastly outclassed in power, power Jacen couldn't use to yield an advantage due to his woefully inept technical skill.

LotF in it’s entirety takes place in 40 ABY. I would put forward that Jacen became a lightsaber master in the 11 years intervening these two (which included the Dark Nest Crisis and his 5 years journey away from the Order) rather than within the few months of LotF. But let’s dig deeper

The 5 year journey was dedicated to studying the force (With no evidence Jacen put heavy emphasis on sabers) and the time following that bar the DN crisis was a relatively peaceful stretch. Given this, the idea that I'm reaching to presume that with an obsessive goal (Which has consistently boosted growth rates within the SW mythos) Jacen grew massively in a matter of months, despite not growing much between TUF and LOTF where no such goal was present seems a tad nonsensical. Also worth noting that the quote isn't a piece of evidence that's supposed to function by its lonesome, it's a small part of a larger whole, with the brunt of my point being based around the Mara comparison.

C) Kyle Katarn

Except if we follow this logic we’re going to be sent in a few circles given that Saba Sebytyne was also at this council meeting and was passed over. It was down to who volunteered.

Which included Corran.

It was based on their ability to escape and resist torture. The council meeting/sparring match was a sham. Kyp and Luke had already chosen the strike team and it’s purpose.

The primary issue with this is the fact that there's no reason for them to put on a show in front of trusted allies regarding the selection of the strike team (Nor is it implied that they did anywhere throughout the novel). Secondly, on the subject of escaping/resisting torture, that's not the initial objective. When Kyp tables the proposal it's as a capture/kill operation, which Luke then considers before deciding that Kyle has the best shot. Following that, Kyp comes to a realisation off page, that the mission has no chance of success, at which point he and Luke agree to leave Kyle on because he's not just the best suited to take down Caedus, but also the best at resisting interrogation and escaping difficult situations. Nowhere is your ridiculous theory about them feigning ignorance of the already chosen team in front of trusted allies ever remotely implied.

Later, when Luke actually chooses a team to take down Jacen, he picks Saba.

Probably because it's a more desperate situation where Luke can't simply select volunteers and has to take the best, no matter what.

Which was due to a number of compounding factor that he does not have here. Such as being amped by the pain he was still experiencing from his Luke fight

Such an amp is minimal. These wounds are old and healing quickly. Given the amount of pain is what determines the extent of the boost a fresh injury from only a few seconds prior should cause a much more significant jump. In spite of this, such a jump only made Caedus go from almost blocking one blow against a Luke with the surprise edge to losing in five against an injured Luke without it. Not much of a leap, to say the least.

Despite this amp he is only able to duel Kyle and the others for around 15 seconds before his stamina begins to drain heavily. To the point where Mithric, who was near irrelevant to him before, well

You're ignoring context. Caedus wasn't just suffering from the stamina drop, he'd also fallen victim to a blaster injury. A few seconds earlier he was deflecting their attacks without difficulty. Ignoring the fact that the injuries are specifically noted to be the cause of his exhuastion, not Kyle's pressure.

Despite his ability to soak damage Jacen does have a limit where the damage he sustains outweighs the power provided by his wounds

Ok? Can you actually demonstrate how much parity that requires? We have no clue the extent to which you have to press Caedus when he's suffering from prior wounds before those wounds begin to sap his stamina, nor any reason to think it requires closeness (And given the duel has Caedus showing aug massively superior to Kyle, to the point where he can't make the guy strain to deflect his attacks even with 3 others, it probably doesn't).

Clearly during Fury Jacen can still be threatened by the NJO Council. With Katarn nearly wearing an amped Jacen down and him confessing to difficulty with Saba despite his ego.

There's no connection between Saba and Jade/Katarn to speak of so the point falls flat. The idea that Jacen can have difficulty with her has nothing to do with my comparison between his fights with Mara and Kyle as evidence of his boost.

D) Jacen Solo

He did nothing but roll over a burnt out wreck that was only capable of carrying one squad of troops.

The fire wouldn't drastically alter the weight off the ship, which is stated to be pretty close to 40m. Given the vast disparity established between Invincible Caedus and DN Jacen this feat is most certainly an impressive display, and Dooku has no feats of dominance over an adversary capable of it (While Jacen would almost assuredly dominate his DN self).

Wasn’t accelerating. Wasn't even moving. Only was bringing it’s tail down (B-Wing operate on a gimble. The fighters move around the cockpit) In fact it didn’t even resist.

The obvious assumption is that it didn't try to break free because it recognised such an attempt would be useless against the magnitude of Jacen's TK. The feat stands.

E) Juke Solo

There's a number of issues with what you've established here. Before we start though, I'd recommend you take a look at this quote. You'd be right in saying Juke had the advantage (Though not to the degree you think, nor due to the reasons you've presented), but that edge is attributed solely to her unpredictability, resulting from both the force toying with Caedus's perceptions, and her specific fighting style. Neither of which the Count has access to here. And given your claims that Juke is comparable to Dooku in pure power, I'll accept that as a concession of Caedus's parity or near parity in that area (Given Jaina's power edge is either non-existent or incapable of giving her even marginal superiority in a fight), with his pain tolerance and fighting sight carrying him through.

Anyhow, your first rebuttal on this subject doesn't adress the whole argument, it merely looks like it does. You deliberately omitted a core point:

This fits well with Jaina's feeling of invincibility, and Jacen himself seems to use their last duel as a proxy for the outcome of the current one, noting that he'll have to perform better in order to win.

For reference:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute.

Caedus explicitly contrasts this duel with the last, noting that he'll have to do "more" than he did there, lest he suffer the same fate. But why, we must ask ourselves. Caedus is perfectly aware that Luke's power fluctuates, there's no reason for him to apply a standard for the outcome of the duel at random... unless Juke's power and combative efficiency was on par with that of her uncle's. Given that we know Caedus and Juke's power/combative efficiency is relative and that her edge came solely from other factors I'm fairly confident in saying that the scaling holds. But let's go through the rest shall we?

In fact Caedus is amped here as well.

Which, as established prior, only gives a minimal boost. Certainly not enough to shift the outcome of the fight, especially given any minor advancement in augmentation is offset by the fact that the arm itself has been rendered basically useless. It might not be limp, but it certainly isn't in any shape that would allow Caedus to make use of it.

They’re 2 for 2 each so far. But context is everything. Not once but twice Caedus can barely anticipate or sense who he’s fighting to block their strikes. If he can block them at all. He takes an elbow and kick that knock the breath from his lungs and staggers him.

On the other hand we have Caedus’ blows. Which although landed…… do nothing. His kick barely makes her grunt and the second full spin kick barely drives her back two steps. It’s clear Caedus is physically outclassed here to massive degree. Which bodes poorly for this being a raw power comparison.

This is a pretty poor comparison. The entire scene is from Caedus's perspective, we naturally have no clue whether the strikes were capable of winding her in the same way hers did to Caedus. That aside, your points about the staggering caused don't do anything to help your case either. Caedus is only rocked onto his heels, neither the elbow nor the kick actually budge him a step. Really no different than his first landed strike if we're being honest. On top of that, what you're also ignoring is the fact that timing, placement etc etc all have an impact on the damage caused by such moves, and it's near impossible to assert that a character holds physical superiority from only a couple of landed hits, especially given the disparities in the factors mentioned beforehand. As for Caedus's struggles with keeping up, both of those come as a result of the context in the quote posted prior, but even ignoring that the fact remains that being pressured isn't an indication of inferior power. Galen and Vader were roughly well matched, yet despite this Galen still "tested his master's defences to their limits".

Let’s also remember that they were in the air for this portion of the duel. During which Caedus had backwards momentum to offset the force of the blows.

Which isn't important given he's shown he can already match her strength just fine. The point is that he's capable of matching her speed throughout this exchange, despite not being able to predict her moves.

Had he been on the ground and not had that available?

The passage you posted doesn't have him succumbing to the force of her blows, but being outmanoeuvred and having his arm diced. Pray tell how that proves that the offset of force was what allowed him to last so long? The simplest and most logical explanation is that the second weapon gave Juke an advantage.

And no. The attack was not simply due to Jaina having a second weapon. As described in the text, Jaina performs a full spin and pivot before that strike. She could have easily brought either hand to bear had she only one weapon. Caedus simply isn't capable of keeping up for more than 1 or 2 blows.

The point isn't that she specifically abused her two weapons in the move where she diced his arm off, it's that she used abused them to force the situation where the arm dicing was possible. And as a general note, it's far to convenient that Caedus matches her blow for blow, but the second she gets a second weapon he goes down in a few hits.

Setting aside that lightning and TK are not relative when it comes to the damage they inflict and the means needed to defend against them.

My comparison there was one of speed and efficiency, not the effects of the moves used.

Jacen needed to drop his weapon and take a hit in order to launch a point blank FL attack on Jaina. This is also done directly after losing a damn arm and while being stabbed, which would have ludicrously amped Caedus. It is not a judge of his base power.

Proof Caedus was amped? If a blaster bolt added to healing injuries is all that's required to push his pain tolerance to its limit I'm not inclined to believe losing heaps of blood from getting his arm cleaved off would have done Caedus any favours.

Nevermind that I’m confused as to how you think transfers to this fight as the Count does not leave himself open in this way. Nor fight this close.

The argument is that Caedus has parity with Juke (Which indicates growth, and per your own admission, puts Caedus with Dooku in power), not that he's capable of using the same moves against the Count with similar success.

Caedus has other factors apart from Force power aiding him in a duel such as his Aing Ting pre cog. Making any fight he is in already a poor judge of his power.

An advantage he has against the Count, not that it's important given Juke and Caedus are confirmed to be relative in pure power regardless.

Jaina near oneshots him with TK.

Due to Caedus being unprepared for her attack. Even then it only momentarily stunned him. There are countless examples of relative characters dishing out pushes with similar effect. It's not exactly a display of superiority.

Now that we've cleared that up let's proceed forward.

2) The Count VS The Solo

A) Count Dooku: Some Old Fuckwad Who Didn't Last 30 Minutes In ROTS

Being loosely compared to a planetary power in Zonama Sekot

That's not what the quote actually says. It merely notes that both share a lot in common (One of those things being that they're "enormously powerful" but not necessarily to the same degree), and that as a result it would have been easy to believe they were the same. Never mind that it's from the POV of somebody who never met child Anakin.

Fast forward to 23 BBY and we have one of Dooku’s most vaunted TK feats. The easy throwing of cruisers on Korriban

Korriban is an extraordinarily powerful nexus, that as you yourself noted, is above places like Kaas and Yavin IV. This isn't an indication of Dooku's base power, and as I'll explain in a second, Dooku doesn't scale from this iteration of himself, leaving you with virtually nothing.

And yet Kenobi still regards Dooku as of Geonosis as the most overpowered he had ever felt. Firmly placing Geonosis!Dooku above the iteration Obi-Wan encountered on Korriban. And for that matter, Korriban itself.

Consider the context here. His comparison with Maul and reference to a "great enemy" clearly means that he's talking about living beings, not nexuses. On top of that he refers to battle specifically (He never battled Dooku on Korriban in the same way he did Maul on Naboo or Dooku in AOTC). It's clear neither Korriban itself, nor Dooku while he was there can be scaled beneath AOTC Dooku.

As stated in numerous sources, Dooku defeated Skywalker and Kenobi easily during this encounter

Whom you've yet to demonstrate as impressive.

As the war went on Skywalker and Kenobi would continue to grow and leap frog one another.

This claim is unsubstantiated and makes little sense given Anakin's potential vastly eclipses that of his master.

During the Rise of the Cortosis Battle Droids (10 months post Battle of Geonosis original timeline) Anakin would face a doppleganger of Dooku. Notably this doppleganger defeated Kenobi in The New Droid Army

Again, you've yet to establish why this iteration of Kenobi is impressive.

The Doppelganger technique goes so far as to half the users power. Notably, Dooku's double however loses to Skywalker when he is pushed into a berserker state

Which just makes your case circular. Dooku is impressive because he can defeat Anakin easily, and Anakin is impressive because he can beat something with half of the Count's power.

4 months later however, Obi-Wan has leapfrogged Anakin once again. Despite Anakin once again being pushed into a beserker rage by the same subject matter Easily smacking Anakin with what felt like starships to knock him down.

That the text uses a nice analogy to describe the force of Kenobi's push does not make him superior to Anakin. As stated prior, characters force push each other with similar effects all the time.

However despite his preexisting injuries and such Kenobi used a massive burst of Force Light to temporally neutralize the nexus and save the crashing cruiser

Can you quantify this feat or find a method of comparing it to Caedus (His early TK feats in DN and such)?

Kenobi TK controls a cruiser and cloaks it in an illusion with next to no effort. Compared to:

Given, as you note later, Luke's power fluctuates, this hardly seems like anything worth noting.

Leaving us with the final chain

RotS Dooku > TCW Dooku >> TCWS2 Kenobi+Fisto > Wild Space!Kenobi >/= DN Luke > Skyewalkers! Kenobi > Enraged Skyewalkers! Anakin > TNDA Enraged Anakin >/= Geonosis Dooku > Korriban Dooku (throwing 215m cruisers) > Korriban > Dromund Kaas = Turning Kyle Katarn and hampering FotJ Luke

More like:

ROTS Dooku>TCW Dooku>TCW S2 Kenobi + Fisto>WS Kenobi.

Or:

ROTS Dooku>AOTC Dooku>AOTC Anakin>Half of Dooku's power.

The latter of which is circular, the former of which you've yet to quantify or connect to Caedus. Your only worthwhile bits in this chain (Scaling to Korriban and DN Luke) have been refuted, meaning your entire argument is basically worthless, as you've no feats to connect it back to.

B) Jacen Solo: The Scion Of Skywalker

My original case in this SS was lacking. While I sucessfully tore down the link between Caedus and Dooku, and was able to demonstrate that my opponent himself concedes to Caedus's superiority, I made nothing but vague reference to Caedus's early showings and subsequent scaling, which in of itself, is not enough. While I stand by the fact that Dooku has never displayed an equal or superior level of dominance over a combatant of Inferno Jacen's calibre the fact remains that that alone is not indicative of Jacen's superiority. This section will be an attempt to remedy that issue.

Let's start off with Kenobi, shall we? During the events of ROTS he duels with his former apprentice Skywalker. Throughout the duel he consistently holds his own, doing remarkably better than Dooku did (Dooku was utterly curbstomped). Contrast this:

Spoiler:

With this:

Spoiler:

And the picture becomes clear. Now, Kenobi himself as of this time is vastly inferior to Caedus. Consider Hett's performance against Kenobi:

Spoiler:

And subsequent growth, most notably in his experience with the Vong. The idea that Krayt is anything less than decisively greater than Kenobi is reaching to say the least. And what ties Krayt to Caedus you ask? Well, this does. Caedus is confirmed to be more powerful. Leaving us with:

Caedus>Krayt>>ROTS Kenobi>>Dooku.

C) Conclusion

The Count is dust. The only link established between the two combatants that favours Dooku has been thoroughly debunked across the course of these last 2 posts. Not only is Sing incomparable to Jacen but his combative efficiency is not a reflection of his force power as of that time, and he experiences 2 marked increases in power, both of which are exponential (On top of bringing his technical skill up to scratch). Every other feat you've established is irrelevant, Caedus simply scales from all of them as established in the final part of my post, but even then I'm unconvinced those accomplishments hold. I believe this match can be best described as such:

@HeartOfTheForce wrote:Dooku, plainly, has no business fighting someone of Caedus’s caliber. He will be quickly outfought and overpowered.

HeartoftheForce wrote:@IG @NotAA3 @Meatpants @HeartOfTheForce

Post is up.

Great post

excellent post

Superb post DC.

Masterful post DC.

---

This opening point is a strawman. I never claimed that Sing increased to any meaningful degree,

 
Oh good. Because suggesting Caedus is above Aalya by any meaningful degree would be crazy

To be frank though, Sing's increase isn't the focal point of my argument, it's Jacen's combative ineptude

 
Agreed

Ergo, it takes place after massive power growth (Which will be substantiated further down the line).

 
It was not substantiated down the line

Ok, so? You’ve yet to cap Sing’s potential beneath Dooku’s actualised power, which is required to establish that Jacen’s performance here indicates inferiority to Dooku.

 
Dooku’s force potential is such that it mystified even Yoda and is constantly lauded as the greatest in the orders history.

Dooku's strength in the Force made him enigmatic for even Yoda.
 
- Attack of the Clones: The Ultimate Illustrated Guide

On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

- Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

He was one of the most respected and powerful Jedi in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history, yet at the age of seventy Dooku's principles would no longer allow him to serve a Republic in which political power was for sale to the highest bidder.

- Revenge of the Sith

Aurra has no quotes concerning her potential being any other than barely above average. Even with outside training and cybernetic augs she is matched by Aalya Secura. Likewise Dooku, Palps, and Vader passed her over for apprentice material.
 

The extract is merely stating that the involuntary defence can determine whether they have the potential to become Jedi, not that it in of itself represents force potential (There's a distinction there). In fact it later makes note of what really contributes to the strength of the defence ("Raw talent", "Training" etc etc).

 
Yeah no. There’s a distinct paragraph break between it being suggested as a testing method to where the potential is described as shown in the original source. So let’s clarify

The magnitude of the backlash generated by the shield depends on the character's strength in the Force. A person who is merely Force-sensitive will shove the intruder back by a meter. Someone with actual Force skills will produce a more intense reaction. Those with little training will send the intruder reeling back across the room. Someone who is well-trained, or who has a great deal of raw talent in the Force, might actually hurl an intruder across the room.

- Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook

Raw talent is a characters potential, likewise “strength in the force” refers to it as well. So that is undeniable.
 

This fits given Unu attributes Jacen's ability to resist to his five years studying the arcane aspects of the force, he never once makes note of Jacen's potential as the reason.

 
Jaina tries to rationalize it as training.

"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

Jaina could not argue. During Jacen's five-year journey, she had felt him growing steadily stronger in the Force-but also more distant and isolated, like a hermit retreating to his mountaintop. At times, he had seemed to vanish into the Force entirely, and at other times she had sworn he was floating just above her shoulder.
To tell the truth, it had given her the creeps. She had started to feel like she was sharing a twin bond with a different brother every few weeks-or like he was practicing to be dead or something.

- DN: TJK

However we have an official guide statement of how it actually works. So this point is moot

If we accept my (More reasonable) interpretation

 
Your interpretation is flawed and irrelevant. We have a canon explanation for how this stuff works. Example stands

Cheap attempt at trying to score a victory. You ultimately agree the two are equally injured, and that’s all that matters.

 
I agree. It is all that matters
 

What you've posted shows that they can't penetrate each others barriers directly, something even Sheev can't do to Maul (Despite the rather obvious power disparity). This doesn't indicate they're comparable power wise

 
Wow. Really?
1.     Sidious has already shown he can outright ragdoll Maul
 
2.     During the fight it’s made clear that’s Sids can effortlessly dominate the duo despite barely being tested in the entire fight (Which would include the state in which he stomped Maul in three moves)

But strong as he had become, Maul found himself in awe of Sidious. The Sith Lord was astonishingly fast and efficient, and the Force flowed through him effortlessly. His sabers stabbed and slashed through the smallest hole in an opponent’s guard, his movements never carried him a millimeter out of position, and he could sense every attack Maul and Savage made before it developed.
 
....
 
Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.


- Shadow Conspiracy 

3.     The passage that is used to support doesn’t even say what you think it does. Speaking of which

Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.
 
- Shadow Conspiracy 

 
-        This is from Mauls PoV. Who is hopelessly outclassed and as shown later in the fight can be blitzed by Sids at any moment even when amped by the rage of his brothers death.
-        The term “pounce” simply means to move quickly on an opening. To Maul, everything Sids does is fast
-        To even use another definition of the word to pounce is to take swift action eagerly. As supported by Filoni’s comments, 

IGN: He really always does have the upper hand in that fight.


Filoni: And he’s enjoying himself while he does it.


- http://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

      Sids is having the time of his life in this duel. And would naturally be happy to exploit an opening
 
4.     And finally, even if we were to grant the line the flawed and outright wrong meaning you think it does, all it would mean is that a Sidious that is weaker than the one who blitzed Maul while being barely tested couldn’t breach Maul’s guard. Which in no way applies to a full power Mara and Jacen being evenly matched.
 
So no. Mara is Jacen’s equal in force power by the evidence presented in the fight. Quoting the characters opinions on Jacen being “more powerful” is irrelevant because they are proven wrong by the duel itself. As both are equally injured and still stalemate.
 
Mara >/= Sacrifice Jacen. And it’s all downhill from here now that we’ve clarified Jacens best feat
 

Which included Corran.

 
Yes and let’s clarify where he stands shall we
 
For starters, the sparring you used earlier in the debate refers only to trainee Corran and Mara. Mara makes it clear that she is not learning anything from the academy.

The flesh around her eyes tightened. "My Imperial training directed me toward using dark-side techniques for tapping the Force. I let emotions fuel what I did. I came here thinking Luke would show me new things I could do, new abilities to learn, but what he did instead was show me how to employ the light side. I'm still doing the same things, but I have a new fuel source."
 
- I, Jedi

Likewise Corran concedes inferiority to Kyp by a wide margin.

I hesitated for a moment and let the question roam around in my brain. I shook my head. "I know I'm competitive, and I would have thought you'd be right, but I don't see Kyp as some-one I'm competing with. I've been second best before. That's a role I can accept. I make it my mission to make sure the front runner can't relax, but I'm more concerned with doing my best than I am with beating someone else's best."
 
Kam's expression lightened considerably. "That shows a fair amount of maturity."
 
"Kinda scary, isn't it?"
 
"Not in a Jedi Knight." Kam tossed the remote into the air and it withdrew to a range of four meters. "Go again, Keiran Halcyon. Concentrate. Show me your best."
 
Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron's best. Kyp's growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years.
 
- I, Jedi

This is pertinent as the DS Sourcebook makes it clear that Mara could easily surpass Kyp if she so chose. Which when she started proper she did

Though Mara could have easily joined Skywalker's new Jedi academy on Yavin 4 and instantly become his best student, she opted instead to explore the galaxy on her own for a while.
 
- Dark Side Sourcebook

 
Mara is above the NJO (bar Luke) for the length of the Vong War (the guidebook covers the full war).
 

 
Including Kyp and by extension Corran, Kyle and Saba. This is further cemented by the sparring match Horn and Mara share in The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin. Where while Corran is merely slightly out of shape with no physical injuries, Mara is barely alive and only being kept up by her own strength in the force. Yet she still wins the duel itself. With Corran only scraping by with a trick with his duel phase saber.
 

 

What made it even more remarkable was that neither of them was in full, good health. Mara had been battling a disease that sapped her strength and defied Luke's best efforts to help her. He knew things could have been worse: of a hundred people diagnosed with the ailment, only she had survived. Her strength in the Force has sustained her, and in combat she lets the Force race through her.
 
Corran had only recently completed bacta therapy for life-threatening wounds he'd earned in a fight with the Yuuzhan Vong on Bimmiel. While the injuries had healed, including the long-term effects of a biotoxin, getting his conditioning back and regaining his combat edge was not easy. Luke could see Corran's chest heaving with the exercise and smiled. Neither of us is as young as we once were.
 
Mara crashed her blade against Corran's, driving him back. Corran's right ankle twisted, dumping him to the workout room floor. He rolled back through a somersault and came up on his right knee, with his left flank closer to Mara than his right. He held his lightsaber in toward his belly, then rotated his right hand. The weapon's internal assembly shifted, more than doubling the length of the lightsaber's blade and infusing it with a deep amethyst hue.
 
Mara laughed sharply and swung her blade at the slender purple energy rod opposing her. While Corran's weapon did give him reach on her, a simple beat attack would swing the blade wide, then she could dart forward and spit Corran with a lunge. The surprise of Corran's blade-lengthening tactic had worked on enemies before, but Luke knew Mara must have been expecting it and had long since worked out a strategy to deal with it.
 
She swung her blue blade to batter Corran's blade aside, but got no spark and no hiss from a collision of the blades. Her mighty swing spun her around, and as she completed the circle, the blue blade carved an infinity symbol in the air before her. She dropped back two steps, then thumbed her blade off and bowed in Corran's direction, before slumping to her knees with sweat pasting locks of hair to her cheeks.

- New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin

If the crux of your argument is Jacen growing past this point it dies here. After Jacen’s famed boost he is then taxed to his limit by Kyle Katarn in seconds
 

 
Subsequently Saba is chosen over Katarn for the actual kill team

"Wedge, handpick a starfighter squadron. We'll use it to chase the shuttle to safety aboard the Anakin Solo, then to support any operation against Centerpoint Station. I'll lead a unit of Jedi to assault Jacen; our job will be to take him out if possible, and to distract him from the rescue operation in any case. Han, Leia, I want you to lead the expedition to rescue the Chume'da. Master Katarn, I want you in reserve for extraction of the assault and rescue teams.
 
-        Fury

This is despite Katarn being healed and available for the mission.
 

Probably because it's a more desperate situation where Luke can't simply select volunteers and has to take the best, no matter what.

I agree. Which leaves us with
 
Mara (who can barely collapse a cave) > Saba > Katarn >/= Amped Fury Jacen > Fury Jacen

Such an amp is minimal. These wounds are old and healing quickly.

Until they are aggravated by the stress of a duel. But you conceded there is one.
 

In spite of this, such a jump only made Caedus go from almost blocking one blow against a Luke with the surprise edge to losing in five against an injured Luke without it. Not much of a leap, to say the least.

DC. That’s a 5 times increase. That’s pretty huge.
 

You're ignoring context. Caedus wasn't just suffering from the stamina drop, he'd also fallen victim to a blaster injury.

Read the novel. The reason that the bolt got through at was due to his exhaustion. 

Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.
 
- Fury

 
Compare this to Dooku being pushed to the limits of exhaustion in IH and yet being unphased by a firestorm and simply keeps going
 

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious. That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.


"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"
Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted theirhands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.


- Revenge of the Sith

Ignoring the fact that the injuries are specifically noted to be the cause of his exhaustion, not Kyle's pressure.

Taxed: make heavy demands on (someone's powers or resources).
 
The duel is noted to tax Caedus before Kyle’s elimination. Jacen’s injuries were noted to amp him. 

 So when Niathal said he did not look well, she was correct. He keenly felt his worst injury. Not the vibroblade wound, not the scalp tear, not the kidney damage-all three were healing. All three were the kind of pain that strengthened him.

-LotF Fury

Kyle simply pressed Jacen to the point where he overwhelmed Jacen and the output of his amp.

Ok? Can you actually demonstrate how much parity that requires?

 
It would actually require superiority. As Kyle is not only overwhelming Caedus' standard output but also the pain provided by his injures. As Caedus is able to ignore injuries in combat bar exhaustion.
 
Think of water within a bucket under a hose to represent Jacen’s available power. The water coming in is the energy being provided by him drawing on his injuries, the energy he expends in combat the size of the hole in the bottom.
 
If Katarn is pressing Caedus hard enough (creating a big enough hole in the bucket) to not only deplete his standard reserves but overwhelm the amp from his injuries then by extension he is superior to Jacens standard power output. This is what would lead to the injuries becoming a hindrance rather than an amp. That being said, if Jacen reaches this point, he's being thoroughly outmatched. 

And given the duel has Caedus showing aug massively superior to Kyle, to the point where he can't make the guy strain to deflect his attacks even with 3 others, it probably doesn't

Nowhere does Jacen show massively superior aug to Kyle. And his deflection of a Kyle’s first attack ( which Kyle wasn’t implied to be putting any particular effort into anyway) is set aside by Kyle landing physical hits on him later.

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. 
 
- Fury

 

There's no connection between Saba and Jade/Katarn to speak of so the point falls flat. The idea that Jacen can have difficulty with her has nothing to do with my comparison between his fights with Mara and Kyle as evidence of his boost.

 
Uh oh

The fire wouldn't drastically alter the weight off the ship, which is stated to be pretty close to 40m.

 
No but being blown in half might do it DC
 
Let’s clear this up
 
The dropship is wedge shaped. Essentially a triangle like a Star Destroyer. This is what happens to it

Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.
 
- DN: TSW

 
So vaporizing an entire wing off of the thing removes a third of it’s mass instantly. But more than that the explosion is described as leaving a “gash" (a long deep slash, cut or wound.) in the fuselage. The main body of the craft. Then add on to that.

Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.
 
- DN: TSW

 
All of the remaining cannons exploded as well. Now how many guns are on this thing?

Jaina and Zekk continued toward the top of the dune. Without the barrage churning up sand and dust, the air was beginning to clear, and they could see the crimson wedge of the drop ship descending the last few meters to the sand. Its nose shield was still glowing with entry heat, and the multibarreled laser cannons that hung beneath the wings were hissing and popping with electromagnetic discharge.
 
Then the drop ship's belly turret spun toward the Jedi and began to stitch the slope with fire from its twin charric guns.
 
- DN: TSW 

So let’s be clear. Both guns on each wing exploded. Removing the wings and wrecking the fuselage. Then the belly gun explodes. Which considering the magnitude of the others blasts, would have just outright blown it in half.
 
My original point stands. Jacen nudged a burnt out wreck of unknown size and mass, but was nowhere near 40m.

Given the vast disparity established between Invincible Caedus and DN Jacen this feat is most certainly an impressive display, and Dooku has no feats of dominance over an adversary capable of it (While Jacen would almost assuredly dominate his DN self).

I see no evidence that Caedus could dominate his DN self when his prime iteration clocks out after 15 seconds against Katarn, who is sub Mara, who can barely collapse a cave.
 
Also to you second point
 
Here’s K’Kruhk pulling down an easily 40m ore ship.
 

 

 

 
K'Kruhk is subsequently dominated by Quinlan Vos. And you know where we go from here.
 
Dooku scales so ludicrously above a feat of this caliber it’s laughable. Hell the earliest iteration in my chain has him easily tossing 215m cruisers. So even if the feat is what you thought it was. It doesn’t even register on the Counts radar.
 

The obvious assumption is that it didn't try to break free because it recognised such an attempt would be useless against the magnitude of Jacen's TK. The feat stands.

The random dude piloting has no idea who is gripping his ship or how. In fact Luke stopped the last fighter. So if we are to use your logic, the pilot would think that attempting to resist Luke’s TK would be pointless. But even then that doesn’t get you anywhere as the ship doesn’t resist.
 
Therefore Jacen’s grip is never tested.

To give an example. Two people stands in front of two cars.
The first car tries to move forward. The first person stops it with their hands
The second person puts their hands on the second car. The driver doesn’t even start the engine.
Has the second person accomplished anything?

No. Just as Jacen didn’t. As the craft did not resist him.
 
And even if we were to grant this feat to Jacen. Again, it doesn’t even make him a speck of a speck on the Counts radar.
 

Before we start though, I'd recommend you take a look at this quote. 

Noted
 
Let’s clear something up here as well. My relation of Juke = Dooku is based on them both stomping Caedus. There’s no actual canonical link between them. So if your point here is to present Juke=Caedus bar style. All that would mean is that Dooku stomps both. As he retains his massive feats and scaling edges over Caedus and by extension Juke (as Caedus is the only gauge of her power)
 
Moving on.

Caedus explicitly contrasts this duel with the last, noting that he'll have to do "more" than he did there, lest he suffer the same fate. But why, we must ask ourselves. Caedus is perfectly aware that Luke's power fluctuates, there's no reason for him to apply a standard for the outcome of the duel at random... unless Juke's power and combative efficiency was on par with that of her uncle's. Given that we know Caedus and Juke's power/combative efficiency is relative and that her edge came solely from other factors I'm fairly confident in saying that the scaling holds.

 
Before we start though, I'd recommend you take a look at this quote. 
 
As pointed out in it Caedus believed Jaina was Luke purely due to his perceptions being altered by Luke. Rendering your gymnastics of him comparing previous duels (which he doesn’t do. We’re in his perspective for that scene and he does no such thing). Note specifically that his perceptions are being altered. So if he were to do some comparison it would only mean that he reached the conclusion Luke wanted (that it was him) as confirmed by your source. And with that the Juke fight is rendered moot. As there is no point of comparison for her bar her matching up to Caedus and your only real evidence for Caedus growing is matching to her. Which is circular and moot. Which we’ll discuss further below.
 
So we can dismiss this fight now in it's entirety. But I’ll address the rest for formalities sake if you wish to continue to waste time with it. 
 

The entire scene is from Caedus's perspective, we naturally have no clue whether the strikes were capable of winding her in the same way hers did to Caedus.

 
Except the text goes out of it’s way to note that the attacks aren’t being as effective as Caedus intended or as they should be

Caedus felt a boot slam into his ribs-an instant before he saw it coming with his Aing-Tii fighting-sight-and the breath left his lungs. He countered with a head-high backslash and brought his own foot up, landing a Force-enhanced snap-kick between the legs of the brown-robed blur attacking him. The blow drew a pained grunt but failed to even stagger his foe.
 
A bony elbow slammed up under his chin, rocking him onto his heels. Then, finally, Caedus felt a familiar tingle in the back of his mind, and he saw the image of a violet blade slashing at his vulnerable side. He swept his own lightsaber down across the front of his body in a desperate reverse block that barely caught the attack in time to prevent it from slicing him in two, then whirled into a spinning back kick that landed squarely in his foe's stomach and drove him back: a mere two steps.

- Legacy of the Force: Invincible

 
Note the grammar and language used. It’s clearly meant to insinuate that Caedus can barely keep pace with his foe. His sense barely aiding him and his blows failing to have the desired impact.

Which isn't important given he's shown he can already match her strength just fine.

Ummmm

Luke flew after him, not even bothering to try for the high position, simply coming up under him with a wild slash combination that was anything but subtle or deft or even tricky; just pure relentless ferocity. Caedus had to stretch himself out belly-down in midair to meet the attack, and even calling on the Force to bolster the strength in his good arm, it was all he could do to keep the powerful strikes from knocking his guard aside and leaving him wide open.
They started to drop, trading a trio of lightning-fast blows that left Caedus's hands stinging and his heart racing.

- Invincible 

 
That would be a no. The meaning of the phrase “it was all he could do” is: 

"One is barely managing to do something that is exceptionally difficult."

- Farlex Dictionary of Idioms.

So correction Caedus can barely match her strength with extreme difficulty.

The point is that he's capable of matching her speed throughout this exchange, despite not being able to predict her moves.

You seem to be misunderstanding the quote. It’s not that Jaina’s style in and of itself was unpredictable. It was the application. As clarified in the novel

The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.

- Invincible

Essentially Jaina was pulling a Savage Opress. Her unpredictability did not come from bladework or feints and such. But by simply being brutal.
What was unpredictable wasn’t the trio of strikes Jaina used. It was that she didn’t try for a position advantage.

Luke flew after him, not even bothering to try for the high position, simply coming up under him with a wild slash combination that was anything but subtle or deft or even tricky; just pure relentless ferocity. 

- Invincible

What was unpredictable wasn’t that Jaina was using the force. It was that she went straight for it.

But Luke did something even more unexpected, removing one hand from his lightsaber and pushing the palm forward.

- Invincible

In comparison to
 

Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

- Inferno

And even if. If. The quote said what you thought it said it only credits it giving Jaina the early advantage. In the mid fight, despite explicitly being noted as predicting Jaina’s moves Caedus simply isn’t fast enough to keep up

Caedus turned to meet her with his good arm forward and his wounded shoulder behind. Jaina struck high with the lightsaber and low with the beskad. Caedus slipped back, allowing both blades to pass, then sprang forward and counterthrust, trying to impale her with her own momentum.
 
Jaina was already spinning past his crimson blade, pivoting on a dead stormtrooper's chest plate as she brought Vatok's beskad around at neck height. But Caedus had anticipated her once again, leaning away to take the blow on his wounded shoulder rather than across his throat.
 
- Invincible

 

The passage you posted doesn't have him succumbing to the force of her blows, but being outmanoeuvred and having his arm diced. Pray tell how that proves that the offset of force was what allowed him to last so long? The simplest and most logical explanation is that the second weapon gave Juke an advantage.

 
It wasn’t just force I was referring too. While Jacen is in the air he can maintain a set distance between Jaina and himself as both are only operating on the momentum of their jumps. Negating Jaina’s speed edge and limiting the strength. Even then Jacen barely held on. 
 
Once they’re on the ground Jaian is able to freely move around to assault Caedus. Utilizing her superior augmentation in all facets. Thus, as shown in the quote above, in two blows Jacen is down an arm. And once again, it has nothing to do with the second blade. Read the text
 
Jacen allowed both blades to pass. So the second wasn’t a factor. It’s not like Jaina tied him up with one blade to attack with another. And as pointed out before, Jaina performs a full pivot on the trooper, so she could have attacked with either blade.
 
Jaina procuring a second weapon may have correlated with her maiming Jacen. But correlation is not causation. The novel makes clear that it’s Jaina’s speed that seals it against Jacen. Jacen cannot block Jaina, he doesn't have the strength as stated. Likewise after only one attack he is outflanked and maimed. Despite being outright stated to have been able to predict her attack, he simply is not fast enough. The novel could not have made this anymore clear. 
 

Proof Caedus was amped?

Every fight he’s been in. He has consistently drawn off and been empowered by pain in every instance. The only time he hasn't was when he was at his limit. And I doubt you're intent was to put forward that Caedus is at his limit after a few seconds of fighting Juke.
 

If a blaster bolt added to healing injuries is all that's required to push his pain tolerance to its limit I'm not inclined to believe losing heaps of blood from getting his arm cleaved off would have done Caedus any favours.

 
No fighting Katarn is what pushed Caedus to his limit. Despite his injuries amping him.  Also what happened to this DC?

DC77 in his opening post. wrote:My boy can take lightsaber strikes just fine.

Went through it above. It’s not that his pain tolerance has a limit. It’s that the strain of his current battle exceeds the amp his injuries provide.
 

The argument is that Caedus has parity with Juke

 
Then Caedus is dead. Good job.
 
If the quote indicates that Juke and Caedus are equal in power. This instakills it’s use as evidence for growth for Jacen because Juke doesn’t scale over any previous version of Luke or other enemies Jacen has faced. Likewise, your own quote confirms that Jacen’s perceptions were being screwed with which renders them null as evidence. Caedus thought Jaina was Luke because he was made to. His perceptions were aligned to suit that, including any judgments or comparisons that took place. 
 

Consider the context here. His comparison with Maul and reference to a "great enemy" clearly means that he's talking about living beings, not nexuses. On top of that he refers to battle specifically (He never battled Dooku on Korriban in the same way he did Maul on Naboo or Dooku in AOTC). It's clear neither Korriban itself, nor Dooku while he was there can be scaled beneath AOTC Dooku.

Oh boy it’s grammar time!

Count Dooku's fall has troubled us all," Obi-Wan acknowledged. "Now we have a great and powerful enemy." His thoughts turned to his battle with Dooku. He had never met such power in battle before. He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him. Even meeting the Sith Lord who had killed Qui-Gon had not been the same.
 
Legacy of the Jedi

 
Kenobi is making several comparisons here. Hence them being separated into different sentences
 

Sentence: a set of words that is complete in itself, typically containing a subject and predicate conveying a statement, question, exclamation, or command.

So let’s break this down for the kids

He had never met such power in battle before.

In a fight, I have never faced a person this powerful
 
End sentence. New subject. New statement.

He had never come up against something that had completely overpowered him.

I have never encountered anything that has completely overpowered me.
 
Kenobi goes out of his way to separate Dooku above all his other enemies. Then deliberately goes further to place him above everything (as he had never been completely overpowered) he had encountered.
 
So this statement and scaling stands.

Whom you've yet to demonstrate as impressive.

 
AotC Kenobi scales above his TPM iteration whom was comparable to TPM Maul. Despite a myriad of negative circumstances.
 
Maul as a child could level an entire barracks with a scream, 

Spoiler:

 
and then grows ludicrously past that several times. When Caedus has scaling to even match the initial barracks feat we can talk.

That the text uses a nice analogy to describe the force of Kenobi's push does not make him superior to Anakin. As stated prior, characters force push each other with similar effects all the time.

Obi-Wan being able to not only punch through Anakin’s barriers in his berserker state, but break his focus and snap him out is a showing of relativity. To deny this would be inherently hypocritical. As you yourself has put forward that Caedus breaking Juke’s concentration with a similar kind of attack indicates comparability between the two of them. Not to the same degree obviously, as Kenobi did this with raw TK output. Whilst Caedus used lightning, which additionally inflicts, burns, shocks etc etc in additions to the blunt impact.
 

Can you quantify this feat or find a method of comparing it to Caedus (His early TK feats in DN and such)?

 
I mean really that’s your job. But a good example would be Luke not being able to break a Sith Spell on a door on Dromund Kaas 

He followed the wall down to the gate, a four-meter slab of durasteel. This, too, showed red flakes of corrosion.
 
"What are we going to do, ring the doorbell?" Jaina asked.
 
"Let ourselves in," Luke said. He lifted his hands slightly and concentrated; the others imitated him. At first the massive door resisted, then slowly, centimeter by centimeter, it began to rise.
 
Ben felt sweat bead on his forehead, and his muscles were quivering with the mental strain. Even Luke's brow was deeply furrowed. They were able to lift the door only about six centimeters before it dropped down again with a definitive thud on the hard sand.
 
Ben dragged a hand over his forehead. "That shouldn't have been that hard," he said.
 
"No," Luke said. "It's been altered somehow. Perhaps in its creation the Sith used some of their alchemies. It can resist Force manipulation."
 
- FotJ Ascension

 
Whilst Obi-Wan uses the most pure expression of the light side of the force to fight off a planet attack while basically a skeleton.

Which just makes your case circular. Dooku is impressive because he can defeat Anakin easily, and Anakin is impressive because he can beat something with half of the Count's power.

The point of this was the connection between Anakin’s rage modes. Dooku’s growth above his Korriban iteration would have easily been a doubling of his power (unless you wish to contend that Dooku was already approaching the power of the planet) and Anakin easily defeated this level of power while in a rage.
 
Obi-Wan is then able to smack a more powerful Anakin out of this state. Which notably Dooku’s doppelganger was not able to do. Placing this iteration of Kenobi at over half the Counts power. This same iteration of Kenobi was inferior to Fisto. Later iterations of Kenobi now stomp the Ventress that tooled Fisto and fought off the most powerful nexus in the galaxy. Subsequently this Kenobi and Fisto together could not block attacks the Count wasn't even fazed by. 

My original case in this SS was lacking.

It still is

And the picture becomes clear. Now, Kenobi himself as of this time is vastly inferior to Caedus. Consider Hett's performance against Kenobi:

Yes let’s look at this iteration of Kenobi

At the end of the RotS Obi-Wan is without a doubt above Dooku. However this is not the iteration of Kenobi Hett faces.

And who could blame them? Obi-Wan thought, trudging through the sand. Luke had been born in a time of violence and misery. Naturally they would want to protect him. They would not want him to end up in the hands of the Empire - or the Sand People. Or end up like Obi-Wan, a warrior turned into an old man overnight by sorrow and grief.
 
Was there anything inside him anymore? He wondered this, lying on his sleep couch at night, staring at the rough stone ceiling. How could a being be numb and full of pain at the same time?
 
There had been so many that he cared about. And now just about everyone he'd loved was dead.
 
The names and faces would begin in his mind. Qui-Gon. Siri. Tyro Caladian. Mace Windu.
 
The apprentices - Darra Thel-Tanis. Tru Veld. Their Masters - Ry-Gaul. Soara Antana.
 
And the Jedi slaughtered in the purge. For it had been just that - a slaughter, shocking, devastating, quick... but not quick enough for the victims.
 
His dearest friends, Bant and Garen. The imperious Jocasta Nu. The gentle Ali Alann and Barriss Offee. The warriors - Shaak Ti, Kit Fisto, Luminara Unduli. And the great Jedi Masters - Ki-Adi-Mundi, Adi Gallia, Plo Koon....
 
Gone. The word would toll in his head.
 
Gone.
 
Gone.
 
Jedi he'd fought alongside, studied with, laughed with - a roll call of the dead that thumped out a drumbeat of pain with every heartbeat.

- The Last of the Jedi: The Desperate Mission

 After Mustafar Kenobi spends a year wallowing in self grief. He does not practice, nor use the force in any meaningful way. He is thus significantly weaker to the point where he can go from fighting at speeds faster than any Sith or Jedi before him when at his mental and physical limits

No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

.....

"Obi-Wan was a Master of the Jedi arts, true, but even if his fatal duel with Anakin hadn't expended him to his mental and physical limits, his failed supersonic flight from the Dark Jedi and the wound he'd suffered dueling Fomadu had depleted not just his body but his Force reserves. Even Qui-Gon had fallen to a Sith apprentice under less duress."

.....

The two warriors stalk one another in a circle, standing off as in the bygone Ductavis honor duels: One slash. One slain. They rush each other-at Force-amplified supersonic speeds. In the blink of an eye, they cross, each lightsaber selecting a different penetrating trajectory. Obi-Wan, high. Mei, low.. They are past one another-his gambit paid off. Obi-Wan has survived. Headless, Mei stumbles before toppling onto her chest."

- Lone Wolf

To being owned by Boba Fett (who is 13 at the time)

Obi-Wan charged, his hood still concealing his identity. He lunged into the teeth of the blaster fire, weaponless. A surprised Boba Fett took a step back. He was too good to stumble, but for the smallest whisper of a second he was slightly off balance. Obi-Wan saw it. Fett's left side was the vulnerable point.
 
He leaped. In midair, he twisted, coming down with one boot planted squarely on Boba Fett's left knee. But to his surprise, Fett didn't go over. Obi-Wan felt the bounty hunter's body give, but suddenly Fett reversed direction, planting himself more firmly. Obi-Wan was stopped cold and had the unpleasant sensation of feeling an armored elbow smash into the back of his head, sending him to the ground.
 
.....
 
He heard the footsteps approaching. Just as they reached the corner of the dormer, just when there was only a split second before Fett would see him, Obi-Wan leaped out.
 
But Fett must have been expecting this. Taking barely a second to aim, he fired the concussion missile in his jetpack.
 
Obi-Wan felt the shock waves reverberate. He was blown off the roof, his body lifting into the air like a scrap of cloth. He slowed down the moment, looking for a way to land that wouldn't involve smashing into the permacrete rising toward him.
 
He reached for the grapnel line on his utility belt. He sent it flying as he fell, the hook catching on the edge of the roof. He bounced in the air, hard, wrenching his shoulder as he quickly swung himself back up. He hit the roof and kept going, charging at Fett, his lightsaber glowing. He severed Fett's blaster rifle in one clean stroke.
 
Obi-Wan had nowhere to go as Fett suddenly slammed into him, wrapping his arms around the Jedi's body, knocking away his lightsaber, and propelling him backward, trying to push him off the roof. Instead of trying to break Fett's grip, Obi-Wan seized his arms, and the two men shot off the edge, spinning in midair. The crowd below saw them now and gasped.
 
The two bodies fell through the air for several long seconds before Fett activated his jetpack. As he fired his thrusters, he maneuvered the jetpack so he could slam Obi-Wan against the side of the building repeatedly. Obi-Wan felt the blows shudder through his bones.
 
Fett reversed and came at the building again. Obi-Wan saw the solid duracrete zooming toward his face. He called on the Force to help. He would need it. At the last moment, he drew his legs up and kicked out. The jolt radiated up through his skull. They spun out, and Obi-Wan used the opportunity to loosen Fett's hold. He dropped, gathering the Force to ease his landing and recapture his fallen lightsaber.

- TLotJ: Dark Warning

 
And having to hide and run from Inquisitors. More than that. Ferus, who witnessed Kenobi fight at this time believed Vader as of 18BBY to be faster than him. 
 
In fact, despite a more advanced Ferus being dominated by Vader. Rusty "only using the force again as of an hour ago" Ferus is only slightly slower than this Obi-Wan.

Ferus's Jedi training made him move quicker than an ordinary bystander, dodging almost in time with Obi-Wan. 

- TLotJ: Dark Warning
 

With it in doubt than even Prime Vader is above TPM Kenobi with even RotJ Luke (his equal) being noted as “not that powerful of a Jedi” it’s painfully clear just what this depression and neglect of training has done to Obi-Wan
 
Now yes Obi-Wan does pick up his training again eventually. But the damage is done. Mere exercises cannot replace years of being constantly pushed to the limit by war. This has been noted throughout SW very consistently.

A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct,

- Shadows of the Empire

So at this point it’s clear that the Kenobi that fought Hett cannot be connected to RotS Kenobi. But even looking at the fight itself, we are given a guideline for why Hett is able to do as well as does

He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat.

Despite keeping up his exercises Ben is rusty. Hence the length of time being noted

Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade,

Ben’s age is catching up to him on top of the harsh desert environment. He is not as good as he used to be

that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.
…….
Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

 
Noted not once but twice. Hett has an environmental advantage.
 
And despite all of this in Hett’s favour, the moment Ben decides to end it he does so easily in one move.
 
So not only is Hetts fight with a rusty, formerly broken shadow of his former self Ben in no way connective to his tier 9 matching EoRotS incarnation. It’s barely a notch on his belt against this iteration. And while yes Hett gains great power past this. He immediately loses it. Note
 

 
Vong growths explicitly hinder and block force use as noted earlier with nerfed Mara vs Corran
 

 
And here’s the final kicker. Explicitly during Caedus’ time, Krayt is noted to be severely weakened and possibly in stasis.
 

 
So even if I were to grant you this subjective blurb from a canceled book. It gets Caedus nowhere.
 
I think the conclusion here is quite obvious. DC has utterly destroyed his own scaling chain with his concessions of the Mara fight and use of the Juke fight quote. Fighting Mara is Jacen best feat and he is constantly pushed to his limits by people inferior to her post his claimed growth. Rendering it null and void.
 
DC has failed to present feats or scaling for Caedus to stand even to the original foundations of my scaling chains. Which place the Count leaps and bounds over several well established characters who themselves would make Caedus look like a youngling.
 
The Count wins. Plain and simple.
 
Get this useless whiny brat out of the top 15.

nice post

Interesting... Post

Give it 2-3 weeks and I can have something up (apologies for the delay btw).

Sjuttiosju wrote:Give it 2-3 weeks and I can have something up (apologies for the delay btw).

@Sjuttiosju Is this still going?

Yeah, just not finished it yet. S5 school work is a bitch and I've been going through a rough stretch mentally across the last couple weeks, when I thought I'd finish it by after realising my intial self-imposed deadline wasn't going to be feasibly met. It'll come, but apologies to anyone who cares and is frustrated by the time it's taken.

1) The House That Cards Built

Before I move on to the actual rebuttals this post will contain, I'd like to place explicit emphasis on Grey's primary mistake in his final post. Solid though he may perceive his argument to be, the reality is it's nothing more than a house of cards that's about to come tumbling down. There's no direct connection between Caedus and Dooku favouring the latter anywhere in the 3 posts made to persuade the readers of Dooku's superiority (outside of the Aurra comparisons), so Grey's victory is contingent on two premises:

A) Caedus must be comparable to Aurra as of Tempest.

B) Caedus must then remain stagnant across the rest of the series.

While I hope to go through these in greater detail throughout the rest of my post, I'd like to bring to the attention of those reading that premise B, regardless of how much of my initial chain holds, is fundamentally incorrect. Even if Grey's points about Jacen's power not altering all the way to the Katarn fight are true, he's failed to account for one small variable, that being the quote labelling Caedus as the most powerful sith circa 41ABY. Now, he may have contested the chain I put forth that places Caedus above Kenobi via Krayt, but he has not contested the quotes’ applicability to the other prominent and powerful sith lord around at that time, who is... you guessed it, Vol. While he does point out that the quote is from a cancelled book:

So even if I were to grant you this subjective blurb from a canceled book. It gets Caedus nowhere.

It's irrelevant given its republication on SW.com renders it C-Canon by default. From Caedus's superiority to Vol we can gather that he can one shot Workan:

Fate Of The Jedi: Ascension wrote:No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

Who himself ranks higher than Gaalan. Given we know the LOTS hierarchy is determined by power:

Fate Of The Jedi: Ascension wrote:"The Sith had strictly defined castes-a slave caste, a religious caste, an engineer caste, and a warrior caste. There was no transitioning from one to the other. That is, I think, where the Lost Tribe is superior. When we arrived on Kesh, we did not believe in such divisions. Any Keshiri could rise according to his ability with the Force-as you have seen."

And that Galaan is a match for Kyle:

Fate Of The Jedi: Backlash wrote:Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.

The conclusion is simple. Invincible Caedus can one shot Katarn, who is superior to his Fury counterpart according to Grey himself. Thereby indicating massive growth on the part of Caedus, and leaving us at a stalemate if I cannot prove the rest of my claims, at absolute best for my opponent. Which leaves Grey's argument looking a little bit like this. Now, onto the rebuttals.

2) Paradise Regained

A) Aurra Sing

Dooku’s force potential is such that it mystified even Yoda and is constantly lauded as the greatest in the orders history.

Great, but that's not what I was inquiring about. I asked what you have that proves Dooku's actualised power (the strength he can bring to bear at any given moment) is above Sing's full potential (I didn't want a comparison between the two exclusively on the subject of potential)? Given I see no answer to this question in your post, and it's essential for your argument here to hold, I'm going to take this as a concession.

Aurra has no quotes concerning her potential being any other than barely above average.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Even with outside training and cybernetic augs she is matched by Aalya Secura.

Which is indicative of her lacking current power, not her full potential.

Likewise Dooku, Palps, and Vader passed her over for apprentice material.

That only demonstrates that Sing had lesser potential than them, not that her actualised potential couldn't surpass their current power level.

There’s a distinct paragraph break between it being suggested as a testing method to where the potential is described as shown in the original source.

Apologies for my misinterpretation. I was covering all parts of the quote you could have potentially been referencing so as to leave no room for you to be right (though it seems you were not referring to the testing method part when quoting the statement). Regardless, my other points still stand.

Raw talent is a characters potential, likewise “strength in the force” refers to it as well. So that is undeniable.

“Raw talent” and “strength in the force” refer to natural ability at the present time, potential is the level a character can reach in the future. So no, they aren't the same.

Jaina tries to rationalize it as training.

It's not just Jaina. Unu states Jacen has moved beyond his control in that same scene, which makes little sense if potential is what makes up a TP defence, as that's something that doesn't alter, unlike power.

B) Mara Jade

1. Sidious has already shown he can outright ragdoll Maul

The gif you posted doesn't have Maul actively defend himself and is thus not an indicator of Sids ability to ragdoll him at will should he erect a barrier (such a notion is explicitly rejected by the novelization).

2. During the fight it’s made clear that’s Sids can effortlessly dominate the duo despite barely being tested in the entire fight (Which would include the state in which he stomped Maul in three moves)

Sheev's domination of the brothers only furthers my point, that being that enormous power disparities don't allow for the breaching of active barriers. That aside, Sheev doesn't beat him in 3 moves, as shown by the novel explicitly emphasising that there were "too many to count". Does Maul suck so badly at Maths that he can't count to 3, or is the statement merely supposed to imply a large number he couldn't track properly due to the intensity of the duel? I'll let the readers decide.

This is from Mauls PoV. Who is hopelessly outclassed and as shown later in the fight can be blitzed by Sids at any moment even when amped by the rage of his brothers death.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the point. Maul's POV isn't what's important here, it's that Sidious clearly wanted to remove him with the force, yet only does so when given an opening. The implication being that had he not had one he couldn't do so, which demonstrates an inability to pierce Maul's active barrier. Moreover, as noted above Sheev doesn't blitz Maul, so the idea that he could have ended the fight at any moment is unsupported.

Sids is having the time of his life in this duel.

Which isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that he can't breach Maul's guard in the absence of a gap left by an over extension.

And finally, even if we were to grant the line the flawed and outright wrong meaning you think it does, all it would mean is that a Sidious that is weaker than the one who blitzed Maul while being barely tested couldn’t breach Maul’s guard.

A) Sidious being stronger at the end of the duel is predicated on him blitzing Maul in the final exchange. Something he doesn’t do.

B) Even if we accept the premise that he was holding back in the early fight, beginning of duel Sheev was still mopping the floor with Maul + Savage, so it proves that TK deflections don't equate to parity with your adversary regardless.

Which in no way applies to a full power Mara and Jacen being evenly matched.

Huh? How does proving TK parrying is not indicative of parity not apply to a fight's TK exchanges when you’re using them as evidence of proximity?

Quoting the characters opinions on Jacen being “more powerful” is irrelevant because they are proven wrong by the duel itself

As shown above, there's nothing in the fight that suggests they're wrong.

C) Kyle Katarn

Including Kyp and by extension Corran, Kyle and Saba.

The quote you posted doesn't comment on the degree to which she’s greater, and all I require for the comparison between Caedus’s two fights is closeness between her and the other NJO masters.

This is further cemented by the sparring match Horn and Mara share in The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin. Where while Corran is merely slightly out of shape with no physical injuries, Mara is barely alive and only being kept up by her own strength in the force.

Dismissing Corran’s hindrance as being of minimal importance and hyping up Mara’s is disingenuous to say the least. The language in the text treats both of them as a pretty big deal, and makes no acknowledgement at any point of Mara’s being far greater. We can infer from this that Corran doing well in the duel itself can thus be used to indicate loose proximity with Mara. Something Kyle is likewise privy to considering he was chosen by Luke over both Horn and Kyp.

After Jacen’s famed boost he is then taxed to his limit by Kyle Katarn in seconds

There’s a couple points to make note of here:

A) The timeframe of the fight was around half a minute, which isn’t particularly short for a lightsaber duel.

B) Jacen being taxed is attributed to his injuries in the text, not Kyle’s ability.

Subsequently Saba is chosen over Katarn for the actual kill team

So Saba>Kyle? Cool, I never disagreed.

Mara (who can barely collapse a cave) > Saba > Katarn >/= Amped Fury Jacen > Fury Jacen

A) Mara being better than Saba as of LOTF is baseless. Your only evidence for it is a quote from NJO, but once again, if my points showing that Kyle is comparable to Mara and fodder to Caedus stand, then Saba’s ability to give Caedus a fight would prove that she grew. Everything you’re arguing is predicated on Jade/Katarn. Sadly for you, Saba is irrelevant here.

B) Mara struggling with collapsing a cave is worthless considering she’s performed feats far above it (her rock feat in NJO comes to mind). It’s simply a product of LOTF being written differently from something like TOR or TFU.

But you conceded there is one.

“Conceded” implies my contention was ever with the idea that pain boosts Caedus’s augmentation. It wasn’t. My point was that the injuries are still a net negative because they cause his stamina to drain faster. As stated within the text itself. And despite the minimal nature of the boost, Caedus is still making Kyle look like an amateur augmentation wise. Indicating vast superiority.

DC. That’s a 5 times increase. That’s pretty huge.

You’re ignoring factors like Luke getting kicked in the chest and not being able to breathe properly as a result, Caedus being caught off guard in the initial exchange etc etc. When you factor in those it doesn’t remotely come off like you’re suggesting (setting aside that force power doesn’t scale like that regardless).

Read the novel. The reason that the bolt got through at was due to his exhaustion.

It was due to his concentration slipping (exhaustion is an over exaggeration). I’m not contesting the idea that the duel wore him out, I’m pointing out that it didn’t do so to the degree that you’re suggesting.

Compare this to Dooku being pushed to the limits of exhaustion in IH and yet being unphased by a firestorm and simply keeps going

Thankfully this debate is on Invincible Caedus vs Dooku. The same Invincible Caedus who I demonstrated at the start of my post to be far greater than his Fury self. So this little point here is irrelevant.

Jacen’s injuries were noted to amp him.

They amp his augmentation. They do not, however, prevent his stamina from being drained at a more rapid pace than normal. Something explicitly noted within the text.

It would actually require superiority. As Kyle is not only overwhelming Caedus' standard output but also the pain provided by his injures.

You’d be right, except for the fact that that’s not what’s happening. Kyle at no point overwhelms Caedus’s augmentation, which would be an example of overpowering both his standard and amped power. Him “taxing” him is merely draining his reserves. Something attributed in the text to… well not solely Kyle:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

But also the injuries he’s still recovering from. Ergo, any claim of parity based on this falls apart. With Caedus’s superiority made apparent by him making Kyle look like a second rater in pure aug, and his pain boost being minimal preventing that from being used to bail Kyle out.  

Nowhere does Jacen show massively superior aug to Kyle. And his deflection of a Kyle’s first attack ( which Kyle wasn’t implied to be putting any particular effort into anyway)

We can infer Kyle was putting effort in given the situation, wherein he’s squaring up against an extremely dangerous sith. We don’t need it spelled out for us. Moreover, the fact that the level of effort is not mentioned suggests there wasn’t a lack of it, given the text goes out of its way to emphasise Caedus’s completely non-existent care or split focus every time he deflects a singular blow from Katarn. It would emphasise it for only one combatant despite being present in both? Lol.

is set aside by Kyle landing physical hits on him later.

Something explicitly attributed to team coordination, not Kyle’s non-existent parity with Caedus (it would have cost him a leg if not for him being defended by the squad).

D) Juke Solo

Let’s clear something up here as well. My relation of Juke = Dooku is based on them both stomping Caedus. There’s no actual canonical link between them. So if your point here is to present Juke=Caedus bar style. All that would mean is that Dooku stomps both. As he retains his massive feats and scaling edges over Caedus and by extension Juke (as Caedus is the only gauge of her power)

The basis of your relation between them would still stand, irregardless of Caedus matching her in Invincible. As that would merely be proof Caedus grew. Juke still gets access to everything Jacen has done up to and including Inferno via Luke scaling. So, if I can demonstrate that to be true, you’re essentially conceding to Caedus ~ Dooku. Thereby allowing the former the win due to additional advantages such as pain tolerance.

As pointed out in it Caedus believed Jaina was Luke purely due to his perceptions being altered by Luke. Rendering your gymnastics of him comparing previous duels (which he doesn’t do. We’re in his perspective for that scene and he does no such thing).

I literally quoted the comparison and it explained it to you. So I’ve no clue why you’re playing dumb, and acting as though there isn’t one. But sure, let’s go through this again shall we:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute.

It’s there, clear as day, in big black letters. Caedus thinks back to his last duel with Luke (despite having seen Luke’s power fluctuate on a regular basis), and uses that as a basis for how the current one will play out unless he does more. Ergo, Juke ~ Luke as he appeared in Inferno (where he quasi-blitzed and curbed Caedus). I don’t know how to make it any clearer than that.

Note specifically that his perceptions are being altered. So if he were to do some comparison it would only mean that he reached the conclusion Luke wanted (that it was him) as confirmed by your source.

Caedus’s perceptions of Luke’s appearance are altered, not his perceptions of the level he’s fighting at. Which, as Caedus is perfectly aware, changes depending on the day of the week. So this doesn’t explain Caedus explicitly comparing Luke fighting with him in Inferno to Juke fighting him now. The only justification that works is the two opponents being dead even.

Now that I’ve firmly demonstrated Juke ~ Inferno Luke, and have a direct quote confirming Caedus ~ Juke, the case for Jacen’s growth is rock solid. I’ll go through the rest, but it’s not really necessary. As official material overrules your subjective interpretation of the fight.

Except the text goes out of it’s way to note that the attacks aren’t being as effective as Caedus intended or as they should be

Doesn’t address my point. Which was that Caedus’s landed hits on Juke didn’t necessarily do less than hers on him. Not that they were as effective as he wanted them to be.

So correction Caedus can barely match her strength with extreme difficulty.

Your semantics here are unnecessary. The point is that Caedus can, ultimately, meet her strength, regardless of the difficulty he has doing so (keep in mind he only has one good arm for this), rendering your point about Jaina demonstrating superior power in the fight moot.

As for what you've said regarding the nature of the aerial exchange, it's rendered irrelevant by the quote I posted pinning Caedus and Juke as equal regardless (so whether that specific exchange proves parity or not is neither here nor there). And the unpredictability segment seems largely meaningless, since either way you ultimately concede it was what gave Juke the advantage.  

And even if. If. The quote said what you thought it said it only credits it giving Jaina the early advantage. In the mid fight, despite explicitly being noted as predicting Jaina’s moves, Caedus simply isn’t fast enough to keep up.

It doesn’t matter given Caedus puts her down with FL two seconds later, showing they were roughly on par anyway. Your claim about him being amped by wounds in all instances is something I’ve already demonstrated to be incorrect (given Caedus’s state in Fury was not attributed to Kyle’s taxing, but the injuries from his duel with Luke). So Caedus having his arm cut off would not amp him in any way, shape or form, and thus this exchange only proves Caedus ~ Juke. Regardless of how fast she severed his arm, or whether the second weapon was responsible.

3) Duel Of The Fates

A) Obi-Wan Kenobi

Your case against Hett’s performance versus Kenobi apparently stems from Obi-Wan’s consistently poor showings around this time. But while I’d be inclined to agree that Kenobi’s base state isn’t particularly potent, he’s not fighting at that level against Hett:

The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.

Rather he's driven by an external motivator the same way he was on Mustafar (the external motivator then was a need to stop Anakin, which caused him to free himself from pain, and here it’s him fighting for Luke). With such factors at play he’s already shown he can go faster than any Jedi or Sith:

Lone Wolf wrote:No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn’t know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul’s singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

So we can assert with confidence that the Anakin scaling stands. Rendering even Kenobi’s own worries about not having held a blade, and his attempt to blot that from his mind irrelevant. As far as the sand is concerned, it's largely trivial as a factor given Jinn and Maul weren’t hindered by it in the slightest when they duelled on Tatooine. It definitely shouldn’t matter enough to overrule either Krayt’s subsequent growth or Hett’s showings here.

And despite all of this in Hett’s favour, the moment Ben decides to end it he does so easily in one move.

Ben’s motivation whirring through his head (a motivation which applies across the whole fight), might have correlated with his victory, but that doesn’t imply he was capable of ending it the whole time if he concentrated, yet chose not too. Such an assertion is frankly baseless.

B) Darth Krayt

And while yes Hett gains great power past this. He immediately loses it.

The quotes you posted imply he was weakened compared to what his newly empowered self could have been. That, however, doesn’t say anything about him relative to his earlier Hett iteration. Which I’ll save you the trouble of doing, because as can be seen in the link, Krayt has grown massively since then.

And here’s the final kicker. Explicitly during Caedus’ time, Krayt is noted to be severely weakened and possibly in stasis.

He’s put in stasis to heal, not because his force power is reduced. So this does nothing to damage the scaling.

4) Conclusion

I’ll start this conclusion by addressing the elephant in the room. No, I didn’t comment on the environmental comparisons, because frankly, they weren’t worth the time. They don’t meaningfully connect the two characters or establish an upper limit for them, and thus are wholly unimportant, as Caedus not having tons of wacky environmental feats is not evidence he couldn’t replicate them if put in an equivalent scenario. The only thing Grey did that mattered was rather half-heartedly attempt to tie them to Luke, but that doesn’t work for obvious reasons (Luke is getting stalemated by Lumiya one day and fighting Abeloth the next). So we’re left at an impasse at worst, as Grey’s Aurra comparisons are meaningless given Caedus’s growth, and at best my chain holds and puts Caedus above Dooku. I hope the judges recognise this, and decide to vote for DC77.

Anyway, thanks for debating me @HeartOfTheForce. It was a lot of fun.

Okay so I'll try to keep this short, and show my thoughts on the main points here: 

Aurra vs Jacen: The main point of the Dooku > Caedus arguments from the start. While there were numerous arguments that went back and forth it ultimatively came down to how telepathy works. While "raw power" and "strength in the force" is pretty much left open for interpretation in this debate, the musings of Unu'thul and Jaina bring the edge to DC.

Jacen vs Caedus: The argument of Caedus's growth. A bit harder to clarify. First of I want to address the sources that would prove either side, the Mara greatest student/ally quotes for Grey, and Caedus's superiority to Vol. Grey's quotes were countered by DC saying that the quotes don't cap Saba from growing later. Issue is that the same logic would befall to Caedus/Vol. However it should be noted that Jade's DE quote is not specific to a specific time, so it could still cap Saba. 

If we look at the Kyle vs Caedus arguments, its also a bit difficult to make a clear assesment, as there's some uncertainity of how much Caedus was amped/hindered by his injuries. From the arguments it looks both like Caedus is superior (as he did manage to gain the advantage), but also that Kyle is somewhat of a challenge for Caedus (as the duel is specified to tax Caedus). The off-set between amp and hindrance from injuries seem like they should roughly balance each other out. 

So overall Caedus growing is clear, but the degree to which doesn't seem as massive as DC wants it to be.

Juke vs Caedus: DC seems correct in that Juke likely can't stomp Caedus, as the sword is noted to give her an edge, and he does hold his own. However Grey also seems correct in that Caedus's perceptions of himself, Juke and Luke can't be trusted when they're being altered by Luke. So while Juke >= Caedus, I can't say I'm convinced that Juke > Inferno Luke. Meaning that Juke is unquantified. 

Important is also to clear the dispute of Juke = Dooku in power. The stipulation of the quote was that both Dooku and Juke could stomp Caedus to roughly the same degree. Meaning that either DC's case (in this point) becomes meaningless as Juke can't stomp Caedus, and therefore the stipulations are not met, or Grey must be right in that Juke stomps Caedus. Either are unfavourable for DC (although the latter can't be proven by grey's quote in on itself). As shown previously, the debate made it clear (at least for me) that Juke can't stomp Caedus, hence Grey's quote is tossed. 

So ultimatively, the fight doesn't bring about any comparison to the PT whatsoever. 

Krayt vs Caedus: First of krayt vs Kenobi. The issue here lies with the fact that Grey made an argument that Krayt had multiple advantages and that Kenobi was inferior, and that DC's counter doesn't prevent this from being true. If anything it seems to agree with Grey. Kenobi performs at an inferior level against Krayt untill he "decides to end it", and when he decides to end it "he's driven by an external motivator" bringing him to his Mustafar level. Meaning that DC's counter doesn't actually counter Grey's. 

Now Hett vs Krayt. DC showed a number of sources saying Krayt honed his skills and perfected his techniques. Issue is that again its not really countering what Grey said, and thats power being restricted, as skills/technique does not necesseciate him growing in power. Usually this would stand unless Grey countered, but this was presented in the last post, meaning he couldn't. Which leaves us with: 1. We don't accept it since its not a full counter anyways. 2. We accept it, but it doesn't carry much weight as its a weak counter. 

Either way with Ben being sub-Kenobi and Krayt's growth being in question, it doesn't really put any relevant chain to Dooku. 

Decisions:


Yet we still need an answer to who won. And there's two issues: 

1. Caedus vs pain. A large part of DC's argument was that if they're comparable in power, Caedus wins by durability. Issue is that - as Grey pointed out - DC specifically noted that blaster wounds/losing limbs would greatly affect Caedus after all. And DC did not address this at all afterwards. Meaning that if they're equal in power, neither has really presented case for why one beats the other (would've been nice to see arguments for saber skills or unique abilities on either side). If anything, if I was to believe that they're equal in power, I would give Dooku the advantage based on the cases made here, as Grey's shown better telekinetic ability, and while both agree that Caedus lowers greatly in efficiency when tiring, Grey's argument of Dooku being largely unaffected by exhaustion was left pretty much unopposed. 

2. Enviromental feats. While a not very valued part of debating here, we're put in a position where it nonetheless is relevant, as any direct comparisons are left countered or unresolved. And while I appreciate DC's standing on the fact that nothing proves Caedus can't replicate for example Dooku throwing the 215 meter ships, there's no argument proving he can either, and it was infact DC who was the first to bring in enviromental feats as sign as superiority (Dropships and B-wings), so clearly it is seen as an indicator of power on both sides. 

So ultimatively my vote goes to @HeartOfTheForce , due to the most unlikely things to matter in a debate like this, ability to handle damage/exhaustion and superior enviromental feats. Either way I would like to say that both did well in the debate, and that it was a fun read. The fact that things like this is what tipped the favour demonstrates just how well you both did in countering each other's scalings

Aurra vs Jacen:
DC takes this section. I had never read the Aurra vs. Jacen fight prior to this SS and I came out of it convinced that Caedus is clearly superior.

Kyle and friends:
Same as the Aurra fight. Never read the fight until this SS and I came out of it convinced that Kyle is significantly inferior to Caedus.

Jacen growth:
This argument only really matters if Grey's argument in Aurra vs. Jacen holds up since Grey's position with regards to Jacen's growth was centered around the Aurra fight, therefore I don't think this section matters in the end.

Skyewalkers scaling:
I think DC used Grey's words against him very effectively when he noted that Grey made a chain that involved Luke Skywalker yet Grey himself recognized that Luke's powers are always in flux and thus are unreliable to scale off of, and Grey had no response to the point. So I think DC did enough to cast off Grey's chain here.

Juke:
This whole area of the debate kinda ended up not mattering imo given Grey's clarification of what he meant with regards to the Dooku/Juke comparison, so neither DC nor Grey really get anything out of this part.

Krayt/Caedus:
I think Grey convinced me on Hett possessing an environmental advantage but not on Kenobi suffering a significant decline. Grey didn't provide a counter to the line which clarifies that Kenobi's skills hadn't dulled since his fight with Anakin. After reading the arguments from both sides I felt that while Hett clearly isn't on Kenobi's level, he is at least good enough to give Kenobi a decent fight, even though that may have been somewhat due to an environmental advantage that gets mentioned more than once during the fight. Given Grey agreed with DC on the point of EoROTS Kenobi > Dooku, and if we go off that premise then I'm inclined to believe that under similar circumstances as the Kenobi vs. Hett fight, that Hett would give Dooku an even better fight than he did Kenobi. I think Grey’s point with regards to the coral seeds sapping Krayt’s strength was enough to make Krayt’s power-level ambiguous in comparison to the Hett who fought Kenobi. At best Krayt is just as powerful if not more powerful than Hett and has more mastery and also above Kenobi and Dooku, and at worst Krayt is less powerful than Hett but has more mastery and is below Kenobi and Dooku. It’s hard to say which take on the spectrum of possible takes is really true.

Verdict:
I think I’m gonna throw my vote towards DC here. By the end of the debate Grey was left with no scaling and DC was left with his Krayt scaling potentially being true. Since Grey was left with no scaling and DC was left with potential scaling it would seem that DC’s case is more likely to be true than Grey’s and so I have to go with DC. Very close debate overall though.