Re: Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Caedus

August 5th 2019, 1:45 pm

Praxis wrote:

BaratoBhajji wrote:

Greysentinel365 wrote:RotS Kenobi >>>> Ben >/= Vader >>>>>> Aurra >>>>> 80yr old Aurra = Caedus.

August 5th 2019, 1:47 pm

Going to address this chain as a serious argument in favour of Kenobi and assume people aren't trolling.

Firstly to start with the Kenobi brigade have no evidence Aurra was weaker as of LOTF than she was as of the Rebellion era. The quote in question to prove Aurra is post-prime is this:

"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."
"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

-LOTF: Tempest

The quote doesn't tell us Aurra is post-prime. All it tells us is that she's no longer as well known as she was before (this has nothing to do with her combative ability) and that Han is confused as to why someone would hire an 80-year-old for the job (Han is a non-Force-Sensitive who has no way to gauge Aurra's strength in the Force and his comment is solely based on her age).

So, right now the chain has no evidence Aurra during the Rebellion era is comparable to Aurra as of LOTF and thus has already collapsed.

To top it all off we have Jacen being confirmed to grow daily throughout LOTF and by Invincible he is above the likes of Kyp Durron according to Luke who imo is out of Kenobi's ballpark. At best the comparison serves to put Kenobi above Jacen as of Tempest.

August 5th 2019, 2:07 pm

@NotAA3

Aurra spends her decades post-Empire at strip clubs with criminals, doing blow. If she isn’t an active killer, she has no reason to grow or even maintain her power. Think about Ben Kenobi declining despite frequently practicing in exile, now imagine Aurra Sing riding a speeder around and getting drunk with crime lords for decades longer with no such practice, and actually growing. You can’t.

Force power has to be maintained, and she hasn’t done that. Also, every character experiences daily growth, nothing hints at this being massive.

August 5th 2019, 5:26 pm

Greysentinel365 wrote:RotS Kenobi >>>> Ben >/= Vader >>>>>> Aurra >>>>> 80yr old Aurra = Caedus.

This seems to be the operative reason for Kenobi's victory.

Well done to @JediJuice for elucidating Aurra's decline.

With that in mind, I don't see how she can possibly be better after degenerating in dive bars.

Caedus stans need to convince people of a literal metamorphosis in her power for him to have a shot at the PT all stars now.

Kenobis, Maces, Mauls are out the question.

The same is probably true for Jinn, Ti, Fisto and the rest of B team.

Now Secura seems like the threshold for Jacen at the end of his ~~Shit~~ Sith career.

August 5th 2019, 6:05 pm

I hope all who think Caedus is sub Aayla Secura are joking

August 5th 2019, 6:32 pm

@JediJuice

Aurra spends her decades post-Empire at strip clubs with criminals, doing blow. If she isn’t an active killer, she has no reason to grow or even maintain her power. Think about Ben Kenobi declining despite frequently practicing in exile, now imagine Aurra Sing riding a speeder around and getting drunk with crime lords for decades longer with no such practice, and actually growing. You can’t.

I wasn't aware of this I'm just making arguments solely based on the evidence I've seen brought up. If this is correct then yes Aurra obviously isn't at her best as of LOTF.

Also, every character experiences daily growth, nothing hints at this being massive.

Yes, but Jacen's accolades as of Invincible placing him above Kyp Durron as well as his performance against Luke in Inferno do indicate his growth was massive. Put Aurra in Jacen's position in Inferno and I can't see her performing nearly as well as he did.

At the very least the quotes regarding Jacen's growth mean you cannot scale Kenobi above Prime Jacen.

August 5th 2019, 6:50 pm

@JediJuice which characters went through daily growth that you can name?

August 5th 2019, 7:08 pm

@YVH Cilghal

Malgus experienced daily growth per @LadyKulvax thread on him. It should be noted however that daily growth does not imply significant growth as @xolthol noted in the same thread.

August 5th 2019, 7:10 pm

... The fact that the characters note the daily growth means it's obviously significant. Why would they bother to mention it if Jacen was growing 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% more powerful per day?

August 5th 2019, 7:29 pm

Why I don't see Luke's performance in Inferno legitimate.

LOTF Fury wrote:

“Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…the nephew who now commanded Master-level abilities in the Force, though he had not been, and never would be, elevated to the rank of Jedi Master.

And no pain Luke suffered in that fight was equal to Ben demanding the right to finish Jacen. ”

While this is referring to Luke's memory of the event, It's fair to assume experiencing the event itself was just as emotionally traumatic, if not more so, allowing him to Job as hard as he did.

Luke tends to perform his best in cerebral moments of clarity, he has the potential to perform better when fully embracing the dark side, which I don't think he's doing here.

The lack of concentration hindering him from channelling force power, also explains why Luke goes from effortlessly pinning his nephew to that chair when calm, to having a sloppy brawl after realising what he describes as a "bad dream"... to TK raping him again in Revelations.

NotAA3 wrote:Put Aurra in Jacen's position and I can't see her perfoming as well as he did.

Aurra is not as canny nor does she have the specific skills Jacen does, which is really what allowed him to survive against Luke as long as he did, among the obvious circumstances. And even Lumiya has defeated Luke under the right circumstances.

August 5th 2019, 7:31 pm

Good to see Ziggy smashing down on Caedus.

August 13th 2019, 8:47 pm

@Greysentinel365 Given you seem to be the person that kickstarted this nonsensical scaling chain you can be the first person to defend it.

RotS Kenobi >>>> Ben

The gap you're asserting requires further substantiation. While there's an obvious disparity as indicated by several sources I'm not aware of anything that points to the kind of chasm you're referring too.

>/= Vader >>>>>> Aurra

Vader's casual handling of Aurra cannot be used for the purposes of scaling given the stipulations surrounding it. Aurra was in bad shape, both physically and psychologically and in no position to be taking on any opponent, certainly not one of Vader's calibre.

>>>>> 80yr old Aurra

Aurra no longer being active doesn't necessitate that she'd be weaker. While I find it unlikely she would have grown, there's nothing that suggests she declined besides Han and Leia's speculation about her age affecting her combative capabilities.

=Caedus.

Not only is it important to note that Jacen did end the fight with the upper hand regardless of him being pressured throughout but Jacen's increase from here onwards is a highly relevant factor you appear to have overlooked. His power undergoes significant development as a result of killing Mara in addition to his daily growth throughout LOTF.

Moreover, when we examine Jacen's combat performances during the latter stages of LOTF it becomes clear he's on a different level entirely. Said performances include:

>Making Kyle and his strike team look like a bunch of second rate amateurs while still recovering from his duel with Luke.
>Stalemating Jaina while she was tapping into a huge portion of Luke's reserves despite him only having 1 good arm.

That's not even accounting for the variety of Jacen's skillset and his insane pain tolerance. So yeah, Jacen's got this and no amount lowballing will lead you to the conclusion that he doesn't. Kenobi wank is built on a foundation of paper, Jacen wank is built on a foundation of bricks.

August 13th 2019, 9:06 pm

Jacen takes this.

August 13th 2019, 11:35 pm

Now I don't fully disagree with you here, but got a few things to pick at with you.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:The gap you're asserting requires further substantiation. While there's an obvious disparity as indicated by several sources I'm not aware of anything that points to the kind of chasm you're referring too.

Why not? G-canon dictates quite clearly that the OT duels are just a legacy of the swordfighting in the PT. Vader is crippled permanently, and Kenobi was old and hadn't practiced/maintained his physicals for years. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Ben Kenobi was even close to his RotS self combatively, nor was Vader. There's a huge gap, and that's what Grey is emphasising here.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Aurra no longer being active doesn't necessitate that she'd be weaker. While I find it unlikely she would have grown, there's nothing that suggests she declined besides Han and Leia's speculation about her age affecting her combative capabilities.

Even if you were right (you're not), the fact is that this Aurra Sing is inferior to the Sing who killed Sharad Hett, fought Aayla Secura to a draw and surprise attacked Qui-Gon Jinn. That's the main piece of information you're failing to factor in.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:>Making Kyle and his strike team look like a bunch of second rate amateurs while still recovering from his duel with Luke.

That duel is more wank for Katarn than Caedus, honestly. I wouldn't be bringing that up when someone like RotS Kenobi could easily be demonstrated as capable of fending off Kyle Katarn plus a fodder team.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Kenobi wank is built on a foundation of paper, Jacen wank is built on a foundation of bricks.

What? Kenobi being one of the most powerful Jedi in history? Being a tier 8? That's not a foundation of paper, that's a foundation of G-canon lol.

August 13th 2019, 11:57 pm

@Meatpants:

Now I don't fully disagree with you here, but got a few things to pick at with you.

Whatever, just get on with it.

Why not? G-canon dictates quite clearly that the OT duels are just a legacy of the swordfighting in the PT. Vader is crippled permanently, and Kenobi was old and hadn't practiced/maintained his physicals for years. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that Ben Kenobi was even close to his RotS self combatively, nor was Vader. There's a huge gap, and that's what Grey is emphasising here

You're taking the general point of the OT being far weaker than the PT and trying to specifically isolate it as referring to Kenobi. It's a generalised concept that doesn't necessarily need to refer to every single combatant within the OT itself. Given several quotes indicate Kenobi grew in the force, I find it unlikely that his overall decrease as a combatant was particularly massive.

Even if you were right (you're not), the fact is that this Aurra Sing is inferior to the Sing who killed Sharad Hett, fought Aayla Secura to a draw and surprise attacked Qui-Gon Jinn. That's the main piece of information you're failing to factor in.

I'm not factoring in the info because unsatisfactory evidence has been provided to demonstrate its validity. As I said I don't think there's anything that actually points to a decrease on Sing's part, just that she didn't improve.

That duel is more wank for Katarn than Caedus, honestly. I wouldn't be bringing that up when someone like RotS Kenobi could easily be demonstrated as capable of fending off Kyle Katarn plus a fodder team.

Your suggestion that Kenobi could handle Kyle and co without effort requires more concrete proof. What has Kenobi done that indicates he could handle a duellist of Kyle's level without effort, let alone Kyle and an entire team while not at peak?

August 14th 2019, 12:17 am

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:You're taking the general point of the OT being far weaker than the PT and trying to specifically isolate it as referring to Kenobi. It's a generalised concept that doesn't necessarily need to refer to every single combatant within the OT itself. Given several quotes indicate Kenobi grew in the force, I find it unlikely that his overall decrease as a combatant was particularly massive.

Oh, so it only applies to Luke, or whoever you want? No. Lucas is very specific, he even specifically names Vader and Ben as part of this. And I don't care about some quotes saying Kenobi maintained his power in the Force, it's explicitly contradicted in G-canon, and there's several sources yet again saying Kenobi was weaker than his RotS self - the overall weight of the sources is that he's a shadow - and that's what we see on screen. Plus, if we have Kenobi being comparable to his RotS self, we then get weird scaling via Luke in ESB being superior to RotS Kenobi, which is of course bizarre. Everything, not only logically from a power perspective but from a thematic perspective also points to the OT being a time when there's only a legacy of what dueling actually was (bar Sidious of course).

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:I'm not factoring in the info because unsatisfactory evidence has been provided to demonstrate its validity. As I said I don't think there's anything that actually points to a decrease on Sing's part, just that she didn't improve.

And I'm saying that she's factually weaker than she was during the prequels. She lost her antenna, which slowed her reaction times and speed, and she's been stagnating

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Your suggestion that Kenobi could handle Kyle and co without effort requires more concrete proof. What has Kenobi done that indicates he could handle a duellist of Kyle's level without effort, let alone Kyle and an entire team while not at peak?

Not being in ragdoll territory for Dooku is probably above anything Katarn ever had.

August 14th 2019, 12:42 am

@Meatpants:

Oh, so it only applies to Luke, or whoever you want? No. Lucas is very specific, he even specifically names Vader and Ben as part of this.

You appear to have entirely missed my point from the get go which is... disappointing to say the least. Allow me to elaborate on what I actually meant. Lucas is treating the PT as a whole as superior to the OT, which makes sense when we have Yoda, Mace, Maul ect against Ben, Vader, Luke. He's not however, explicitly stating that specific gaps exist between specific characters, and their old selves. That doesn't make any sense factoring in the context of the quotes being discussed.

And I don't care about some quotes saying Kenobi maintained his power in the Force, it's explicitly contradicted in G-canon,

Why does his force power increasing have to contradict with him decreasing as an overall combatant? The two aren't the same thing. Kenobi's expertise as a swordsman declined due to lack of practice, which obviously produced a drop in technical skill and physicals, that doesn't conflict with the idea that his power in the force grew stronger, however. This is fairly basic stuff and I'm annoyed that somebody of your calibre is seemingly incapable of grasping it.

and there's several sources yet again saying Kenobi was weaker than his RotS self - the overall weight of the sources is that he's a shadow - and that's what we see on screen.

Those sources again aren't referring to power but overall capability. I don't disagree that Kenobi is inferior as of ANH, I'm merely pointing out that the degree to which you are arguing he is, is suspect at best, especially given his boost in force power.

Plus, if we have Kenobi being comparable to his RotS self, we then get weird scaling via Luke in ESB being superior to RotS Kenobi, which is of course bizarre. Everything, not only logically from a power perspective but from a thematic perspective also points to the OT being a time when there's only a legacy of what dueling actually was (bar Sidious of course).

Why does Ben being comparable to his ROTS self necessitate that he be weaker than ESB Luke at peak?

And I'm saying that she's factually weaker than she was during the prequels. She lost her antenna, which slowed her reaction times and speed, and she's been stagnating.

She's had plenty of time to adapt to the loss of her antenna, I don't see why it should be a problem. Furthermore this entire Sing point is irrelevant anyway given Jacen's exponential upgrade throughout LOTF.

Not being in ragdoll territory for Dooku is probably above anything Katarn ever had.

Dooku's disabled him via TK twice in the same fight, not sure where the notion he's out of Dooku's ragdoll range came from.

Note: You've yet to address Jacen's performance against Luke amped Jaina, which is leagues above anything Kenobi has to his name.

August 14th 2019, 7:09 am

Caedus wins

August 14th 2019, 7:42 am

DC77 (reborn) wrote:>Making Kyle and his strike team look like a bunch of second rate amateurs while still recovering from his duel with Luke.
>Stalemating Jaina while she was tapping into a huge portion of Luke's reserves despite him only having 1 good arm.

I would add being solidly superior to Saba, which is extremely impressive given the feats Saba has to her name.

August 14th 2019, 4:46 pm

MasterCilghal wrote:I hope all who think Caedus is sub Aayla Secura are joking

Considering how low SW debating has fallen, I would not be surprised if they aren't

August 15th 2019, 3:26 am

Sam wrote:

MasterCilghal wrote:I hope all who think Caedus is sub Aayla Secura are joking

Considering how low SW debating has fallen, I would not be surprised if they aren't

I mean it is fine to troll sometimes, but in this case they weren’t joking.

August 15th 2019, 4:21 pm

Lol at the NJO lowball. Kyle Katarn is a superior to KF Vader. Caedus being a superior to Kyp Durron & Luke amped Haina is far above anything Dooku aspires to.

August 15th 2019, 4:24 pm

@IdrisianGraecus:

Lol at the NJO lowball.

Lol at the NJO highball.

Kyle Katarn is a superior to KF Vader.

Based on what exactly is Kyle superior to a Yoda/Sidious tier combatant?

August 15th 2019, 4:30 pm

IdrisianGraecus wrote:Kyle Katarn is a superior to KF Vader.

KEK

August 15th 2019, 4:31 pm

Lmao. Kyle is Maul level at best if you really want to push it. He doesn't even begin to compare to PT high tiers.