Darth Caedus vs Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

Normal Rules.

Who wins?

Caedus, good fight.

Ant convinced me that Caedus is trash, Maul or Kenobi win

Maul takes it.

@SithArchaeologist Raisins?

For me this is the chain:

Caedus>Maul=Kenobi (honestly unsure who wins out of those two).

Caedus has nothing placing him above Maul, someone capable of ragdolling a late-CW Kenobi, with rough parity to Dooku and who was capable of pressing Sidious on two separate occasions.

bruh

Caedus>Maul>Kenobi. That being said, I'm currently debating how high I hold Maul so who knows, maybe I'll raise him even higher.

@SithArchaeologist

Caedus has nothing placing him above Maul, someone capable of ragdolling a late-CW Kenobi, with rough parity to Dooku and who was capable of pressing Sidious on two separate occasions.

1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks. The only time where breaking through them is impressive is if the character in question is actually rendered completely helpless against the TK assault. Maul (Barring against an emotionally unstable and/or distracted Kenobi) has never given his adversary that treatment, merely temporarily grasped him and sent him flying.

2.Nothing suggests Maul is~Dooku.

3.Maul's "pressing" of Sidious was him getting stomped.

As far as why Caedus beats Maul there's a number of reasons.

Caedus's insane precog makes his defence virtually impenetrable and his pain tolerance will make putting him down a near impossible task (He has multiple feats of fighting through getting stabbed with lightsabers and even weaponry specifically designed to incapacitate Jedi couldn't bring down Caedus due to his pain tolerance). He also boasts TK feats generally comparable to those of Maul (Holding together the Falcon under insane pressure with a mere projection of his power). In terms of magnitude Caedus has feats beyond those of Maul (Fooling guards with illusions despite not being on the same planet, with him having no idea where they were and simultaneously enduring a backlash of negative emotion from the hundreds aboard the Anakin Solo). Throw in him giving a better performance against Luke than Maul gave against Sidious and his superiority to Vader (Who's~Maul, per Lucas) as well as his established position as second to Luke as of LOTF and it's a done deal.

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

TheGlory wrote:

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

And in the case of TCW, Maul didn't just push him, he had Kenobi in a full Force grip and held him for a few seconds before throwing him. Kenobi was in a battle-ready stance, facing down Maul immediately prior.

I'll counter the rest of your points later, @DC77.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

TheGlory wrote:

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

And in the case of TCW, Maul didn't just push him, he had Kenobi in a full Force grip and held him for a few seconds before throwing him. Kenobi was in a battle-ready stance, facing down Maul immediately prior.

I'll counter the rest of your points later, @DC77.

Blatantly wrong. Kenobi was facing Savage battering him down. Maul grabbed him from behind.

Will address all of this later.

Maul's never legitimately ragdolled Kenobi lmao (or at least not in a way that indicates Force Superiority). In Sith Hunters Kenobi was emotionally hindered, in TCW on Florrum Maul held him in a TK hold for a few seconds after a long fight during while Kenobi was dealing with him and Savage (which isn't indicative of Force Superiority given Vader has done the exact same thing to Starkiller in TFU 2 without help yet we all know Starkiller is most definitely superior). And finally on Mandalore Kenobi had just been hit with an explosion prior and was injured IIRC.

If Maul could just stomp Kenobi with TK it begs the question as to why he didn't do so in all of his fights with Kenobi and instead had extended duels with him.

TheGlory wrote:

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

There is no invisible cocoon that force users make to repel force attacks. They either gesture or are sent flying.

At least in the prequel trilogy all evidence supports that. Moreover why not apply the same logic to Maul? Kenobi tked both him and savage when they were in a battle ready stance so obviously he is much better than either?

Maul blasting him took hold when the jedi had already begun to attack. Not when he was still in the stance

LOTL wrote:There is no invisible cocoon that force users make to repel force attacks. They either gesture or are sent flying.

Except there is. Characters like Kas'im excelled with such abilities and Corran Horn has demonstrated as much after absorbing enough energy in I,Jedi. When they raise their hand that is typically Force deflection or counter TK.

LOTL wrote:At least in the prequel trilogy all evidence supports that. Moreover why not apply the same logic to Maul? Kenobi tked both him and savage when they were in a battle ready stance so obviously he is much better than either?

You could use the same logic for Maul if you wanted to. At no point in that post did I make my position on Kenobi relative to Maul clear. I more so countered the notion that Kenobi would be running off a lesser Force barrier. Don't put words into my mouth.

LOTL wrote:Maul blasting him took hold when the jedi had already begun to attack. Not when he was still in the stance

What? In the case of Maul blasting him, there were no other Jedi there.

Probably Caedus, great fight.
As for Kenobi, this should be Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan, who is overall on a similar level to Maul, not the pre-prime incarnation of Kenobi who Maul could blast around.

LOTL wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:

TheGlory wrote:

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

And in the case of TCW, Maul didn't just push him, he had Kenobi in a full Force grip and held him for a few seconds before throwing him. Kenobi was in a battle-ready stance, facing down Maul immediately prior.

I'll counter the rest of your points later, @DC77.

Blatantly wrong. Kenobi was facing Savage battering him down. Maul grabbed him from behind.

Blatantly wrong, lmao. Kenobi had just forced Savage to his knees and had turned to fully face Maul. That was the first time in that duel. The second time, again, Kenobi was facing Maul after taking out Savage, and Maul Force pushed him to hard he slammed into the wall at the end of the tunnel, the force from that impact collapsed parts of the tunnel network.

SithArchaeologist wrote:

LOTL wrote:

SithArchaeologist wrote:

TheGlory wrote:

DC77 wrote:
1.Maul's only capable of ragdolling Kenobi when he gets an opening, he can't do it on a whim. Breaching a force user's passive barrier isn't indicative of a massive gap between the two characters, passive force barriers are inherently useless against force based attacks.

Except Force users typically don't just rely on passive Force barriers when they're in the middle of a fight or attempting to enter one, they'll likely raise something stronger. In the cases where Maul takes Kenobi out with the Force, both in TCW and in Sith Hunters, Kenobi probably would have raised something more substantial than a mere passive barrier. In the TCW case, he was in the middle of a fight in a battle ready stance before Maul pushed him. In Sith Hunters, Kenobi was charging at Maul before Maul choked him out - weakening Kenobi to such an extent than Plo Koon suggested for Kenobi not to pursue. The passive barrier argument typically applies when a character who wasn't in danger or in the midst of combat and is suddenly pushed. In either case this is unlikely to apply to Kenobi here.

And in the case of TCW, Maul didn't just push him, he had Kenobi in a full Force grip and held him for a few seconds before throwing him. Kenobi was in a battle-ready stance, facing down Maul immediately prior.

I'll counter the rest of your points later, @DC77.

Blatantly wrong. Kenobi was facing Savage battering him down. Maul grabbed him from behind.

Blatantly wrong, lmao. Kenobi had just forced Savage to his knees and had turned to fully face Maul. That was the first time in that duel. The second time, again, Kenobi was facing Maul after taking out Savage, and Maul Force pushed him to hard he slammed into the wall at the end of the tunnel, the force from that impact collapsed parts of the tunnel network.

Trust me, as someone who has watched that battle many times, you are wrong. As wrong as can be.

Let's settle this by taking a snapshot of the exact moment:



The second example proves nothing lmfao. Obi Wan's attack was already made. He was already charging at Maul, and it's obvious that he didn't defend himself in the middle of an attack. You know like every other force user?

Unless you want me to believe that Ahsoka>>Ventress

TheGlory wrote:

LOTL wrote:There is no invisible cocoon that force users make to repel force attacks. They either gesture or are sent flying.

Except there is. Characters like Kas'im excelled with such abilities and Corran Horn has demonstrated as much after absorbing enough energy in I,Jedi. When they raise their hand that is typically Force deflection or counter TK.

LOTL wrote:At least in the prequel trilogy all evidence supports that. Moreover why not apply the same logic to Maul? Kenobi tked both him and savage when they were in a battle ready stance so obviously he is much better than either?

You could use the same logic for Maul if you wanted to. At no point in that post did I make my position on Kenobi relative to Maul clear. I more so countered the notion that Kenobi would be running off a lesser Force barrier. Don't put words into my mouth.

LOTL wrote:Maul blasting him took hold when the jedi had already begun to attack. Not when he was still in the stance

What? In the case of Maul blasting him, there were no other Jedi there.

Already addressed both the times Maul tk'ed him.

To your argument, no, that might be the case in the EU Legends but not in the PT era. Again, trust me, as someone who has studied almost all the examples, you don''t gesture you get blasted. The equation is as simple as that. To generate an active defense you have to gesture. I have lost count of the number of times someone has gestured and not gestured in a single battle, and been safe and gotten blasted.

So yeah, he would be having no force barrier on. Nothing like that has ever been indicated in any PT era material, attempting to bring the EU Legends into this only complicates matters because then every single example in the PT era supports my stance. Every single one. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if the guy tk'ing is Kit, and the guy getting tk'ed is Mace, if the defender doesn't gesture, he gets blasted. This notion, I repeat has been consistent with every example( at least every example I know), and no source indicates an invisible cocoon always around force users in the middle of the battle. Not one that they actively raise to defend against an attack

The best way to reconcile this is with Ant's blog.

I meant Obi Wan. He had already began his attack. Nobody defends in the middle of an attack( like I said, unless you want to believe that Ahsoka>>>>Ventress) or at least, they can be excused for not defending

LOTL wrote:To your argument, no, that might be the case in the EU Legends but not in the PT era. Again, trust me, as someone who has studied almost all the examples, you don''t gesture you get blasted. The equation is as simple as that. To generate an active defense you have to gesture. I have lost count of the number of times someone has gestured and not gestured in a single battle, and been safe and gotten blasted.

Dude, not sure if you've noticed, but on this forum we largely debate Star Wars in the context of the 'EU Legends', which means that generally if one power is shown in one era which is universally employed, it is likely the case at can be used in others. Singling out eras and saying "this doesn't apply here" doesn't make any sense when characters can and do use it in other eras. And again, like I already said, when they gesture, that can easily just be them using Force Deflection or using their own TK to match it, something that can also be used as a counter to a TK assault. Just because the preferred method appears to be deflection or counter TK in the PT era does not suddenly mean that barriers don't exist or apply in that era. Case and point, it doesn't make sense for Kenobi to rely on a passive Force barrier when in a fight when he should be expecting potential Force attacks.

LOTL wrote:So yeah, he would be having no force barrier on. Nothing like that has ever been indicated in any PT era material, attempting to bring the EU Legends into this only complicates matters because then every single example in the PT era supports my stance. Every single one. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if the guy tk'ing is Kit, and the guy getting tk'ed is Mace, if the defender doesn't gesture, he gets blasted. This notion, I repeat has been consistent with every example( at least every example I know), and no source indicates an invisible cocoon always around force users in the middle of the battle. Not one that they actively raise to defend against an attack

No, what complicates matters is you attempting to single off an era from certain abilities that are made clear in pretty much most other eras, especially when we are talking about the PT era in the context of the Legends timeline - one of the feats being talked about here is from Sith Hunters, a strictly 'Legends' source. It simply lacks consistency in the general lore of Force powers and seems like a convenient excuse to hand wave certain TK feats.

LOTL wrote:I meant Obi Wan. He had already began his attack. Nobody defends in the middle of an attack( like I said, unless you want to believe that Ahsoka>>>>Ventress) or at least, they can be excused for not defending

You seem to keep insinuating that because I believe Force users would logically raise something stronger than a passive barrier in combat suddenly means I assume someone breaking that is an example of instant superiority even though at no point did I say that. What I said is that it is silly to believe Force users would raise merely a lesser Force shield in combat because that is illogical considering the situation. Unless the character is dense, why wouldn't they put up something stronger when expecting potential Force attacks?

Caedus wins in a good fight. I’m astonished there are people who think Maul can ragdoll Kenobi. Considering Maul almost always engaged him in a lightsaber duel thorought the entire arc there is no way Maul could ragdoll him unless enraged. Plus this is ROTS Kenobi who is obviously above his TCW version.

I don't personally think Maul can shred Kenobi's defences, but he definitely has the skill and speed to get around them, and has proven this already.

@LOTL Let's examine this then, shall we? Here's the link to the duel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

I've watched it several times at .25 speed. At 3:56, Kenobi kicks Savage's knee in and begins to turn towards Maul. It then cuts to Hondo talking to his pirates. At 4:27, we saw Maul reach out and grab Kenobi in a Force hold, which Kenobi is helpless against. Given how Kenobi was beginning to turn towards Maul before it cut away, and then when it cut back Kenobi was facing Maul in the Force hold, it is logical to conclude that Kenobi was facing Maul when the hold was initiated. At best, you could argue Kenobi hadn't fully faced Maul yet, but there is no way he was facing Savage.

You should all note that I never said Maul could ragdoll RotS Kenobi, merely a late-CW Kenobi, which he has done several times. Whether he can shred Kenobi's defense or simply is regularly able to get around them is another debate entirely.