Re: Darth Caedus vs Darth Maul vs Obi-Wan Kenobi

May 17th 2019, 12:31 pm

Just to clarify I'm not arguing, Kenobi>Maul or even ~ merely that there's not a massive power disparity, Maul's simply to fast, powerful and skilled for Kenobi to be able to raise a defence necessary to counter his TK. Maul's only outright shredded Kenobi with TK twice, both of which occurred under circumstances that very much favoured Maul.

May 17th 2019, 2:03 pm

DC77 wrote:Just to clarify I'm not arguing, Kenobi>Maul or even ~ merely that there's not a massive power disparity, Maul's simply to fast, powerful and skilled for Kenobi to be able to raise a defence necessary to counter his TK. Maul's only outright shredded Kenobi with TK twice, both of which occurred under circumstances that very much favoured Maul.

What circumstances in particular were in Maul's favor? Because having to adjust to new chicken legs, and having not engaged in a lightsaber duel after years of living under a pit with spider legs while driving insane strikes me as a large hinderance.

May 17th 2019, 2:07 pm

Kenobi's emotional state was an issue in SH (Note that Maul was restored to his former power) and on Mandalore Maul caught him off guard.

May 17th 2019, 4:21 pm

SithArchaeologist wrote:@LOTL Let's examine this then, shall we? Here's the link to the duel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE_CVWMWK74

I've watched it several times at .25 speed. At 3:56, Kenobi kicks Savage's knee in and begins to turn towards Maul. It then cuts to Hondo talking to his pirates. At 4:27, we saw Maul reach out and grab Kenobi in a Force hold, which Kenobi is helpless against. Given how Kenobi was beginning to turn towards Maul before it cut away, and then when it cut back Kenobi was facing Maul in the Force hold, it is logical to conclude that Kenobi was facing Maul when the hold was initiated. At best, you could argue Kenobi hadn't fully faced Maul yet, but there is no way he was facing Savage.

You should all note that I never said Maul could ragdoll RotS Kenobi, merely a late-CW Kenobi, which he has done several times. Whether he can shred Kenobi's defense or simply is regularly able to get around them is another debate entirely.

Dude, I gave a clear image showing that Kenobi was facing Savage when Maul grabbed him. All that analysis is not needed. That is what happened.

Yeah, no, he can't. If he could, he would have done it in their solo duel, instead of when his attention is split between the two of them. Forget that, Shadow Conspiracy has Obi Wan outright tk'ing both Maul and Savage.

Maul is able to get around his defenses when Obi Wan is either concentrating on Savage or simply overextends into an attack. You can also argue that battling both of them together drained him more than it drained Maul and obviously so.

May 17th 2019, 4:22 pm

DC77 wrote:Kenobi's emotional state was an issue in SH (Note that Maul was restored to his former power) and on Mandalore Maul caught him off guard.

Yeah, Sith Hunters takes place hours or days after their battle in S4. That is basically TPM Maul, maybe slightly stronger.

Unless you think that enraged TPM Kenobi>>Late TCW Kenobi( with more than a year to go before ROTS) there is no way he shredded his active defenses

May 17th 2019, 4:36 pm

TheGlory wrote:

LOTL wrote:To your argument, no, that might be the case in the EU Legends but not in the PT era. Again, trust me, as someone who has studied almost all the examples, you don''t gesture you get blasted. The equation is as simple as that. To generate an active defense you have to gesture. I have lost count of the number of times someone has gestured and not gestured in a single battle, and been safe and gotten blasted.

Dude, not sure if you've noticed, but on this forum we largely debate Star Wars in the context of the 'EU Legends', which means that generally if one power is shown in one era which is universally employed, it is likely the case at can be used in others. Singling out eras and saying "this doesn't apply here" doesn't make any sense when characters can and do use it in other eras. And again, like I already said, when they gesture, that can easily just be them using Force Deflection or using their own TK to match it, something that can also be used as a counter to a TK assault. Just because the preferred method appears to be deflection or counter TK in the PT era does not suddenly mean that barriers don't exist or apply in that era. Case and point, it doesn't make sense for Kenobi to rely on a passive Force barrier when in a fight when he should be expecting potential Force attacks.

LOTL wrote:So yeah, he would be having no force barrier on. Nothing like that has ever been indicated in any PT era material, attempting to bring the EU Legends into this only complicates matters because then every single example in the PT era supports my stance. Every single one. No exceptions. It doesn't matter if the guy tk'ing is Kit, and the guy getting tk'ed is Mace, if the defender doesn't gesture, he gets blasted. This notion, I repeat has been consistent with every example( at least every example I know), and no source indicates an invisible cocoon always around force users in the middle of the battle. Not one that they actively raise to defend against an attack

No, what complicates matters is you attempting to single off an era from certain abilities that are made clear in pretty much most other eras, especially when we are talking about the PT era in the context of the Legends timeline - one of the feats being talked about here is from Sith Hunters, a strictly 'Legends' source. It simply lacks consistency in the general lore of Force powers and seems like a convenient excuse to hand wave certain TK feats.

LOTL wrote:I meant Obi Wan. He had already began his attack. Nobody defends in the middle of an attack( like I said, unless you want to believe that Ahsoka>>>>Ventress) or at least, they can be excused for not defending

You seem to keep insinuating that because I believe Force users would logically raise something stronger than a passive barrier in combat suddenly means I assume someone breaking that is an example of instant superiority even though at no point did I say that. What I said is that it is silly to believe Force users would raise merely a lesser Force shield in combat because that is illogical considering the situation. Unless the character is dense, why wouldn't they put up something stronger when expecting potential Force attacks?

Bro, there is no need for such an analysis. The events that actually happen do not happen according to your theory, they happen according to my theory. Which makes me right. As it is, Legends is not consistent, and that is very well known, so why you would bring that as a logical basis to augment your theory is beyond me actually.

I would be too happy to compile all the examples of force based attacks in the PT era, but we both know that it is not realistic to do so. Still, it is worth doing over a period of time, only to stop all this.

To answer your question, it is because they can't? Why can't they? Because they have never shown the ability to erect defenses without a gesture. How do you know that? Because it has happened not one time, not two times but dozens, maybe hundreds of times among battles when it is the most logical thing to do so. The most simple answer-Because the material from that era is constrained by Lucas's vision which does not have anything like that. NJO, Bane trilogy or TOR do not have that restriction and thus they go crazy with the force. No need to deny this or argue, this is as clear as anything you get from the story.

So you can make excuses for one case, two, but not dozens or hundreds. That is how many times it has been logical to use your theoretical force barriers and how many times they haven't.

May 17th 2019, 4:52 pm

This has been great and all but you need to give examples that did not have circumstances that favor Maul, making it easier to get around Kenobi's guard by skill or speed on the battle

Just one example where Maul didn't have-The advantage of numbers that would weaken Kenobi by many ways, where Kenobi didn't tank a ship explosion, and where Kenobi didn't confront Maul just after having his ass kicked by him being emotionally hindered.

If only there was a case like that. If only Obi Wan was at complete physical and mental best.

Oh yeah, there is. On their solo duel on Florrum. But, strange, Maul never manages so much as a force push there. On the contrary, it is Kenobi who rises to the occasion, tk'ing both him and his brother.

Yeah, don't see why Maul can ragdoll even S5 Kenobi given that on the one occasion there are no external circumstances, he doesn't manage to do so. Obviously all that shredding through the defenses talk is bunk, but again, there is no reason to believe that he can do it at will only based on skill and speed, when even Kenobi has done it numerous times. Maul has done it more times obviously, but then again, he is more abusive of the force.